Syria After Assad

SYRIAN WOMAN:

[Speaking Arabic] I haven’t slept at all since yesterday. I came early in the morning to see the people, to express joy on behalf of all the mothers of missing, imprisoned or killed. May peace and security prevail in Syria.

YOUNG SYRIAN WOMAN:

[Speaking Arabic] Syria is free!

MALE NEWSREADER:

We’ve been seeing these amazing images all day coming out of Syria, right, of tens of thousands of people out on the streets celebrating. Celebrating a new Syria and also tasting freedom after decades of repression.

SYRIAN MAN:

[Speaking Kurdish] For 54 years we have suffered. The oppression, the injustice. They used to say, “Hafez al-Assad forever.” Now we say, “Freedom forever!”

MALE NEWSREADER:

Quite simply, no one saw this coming.

MALE NEWSREADER:

Bashar al-Assad has clung on to power through years of civil war. But now a new rebel movement has managed to topple his regime in less than two weeks.

MALE NEWSREADER:

What we’ve been seeing from the rebel leadership is a clear attempt to signal that they want an inclusive Syria and that they want to avoid more conflict. The leader, al-Jolani, has even interestingly dropped his jihadi nom de guerre. He now calls himself by his original birth name, Ahmad al-Sharaa. Even that is a signal that he is not trying to impose his jihadist position.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] This victory, my brothers, is a new history for the entire Islamic nation. This victory, my brothers, is a new history for the region.

SYRIAN MAN:

[Speaking Arabic] Now, I feel victory. Freedom! I feel freedom.

FEMALE NEWSREADER:

We are tracking one of the most extraordinary events in Middle East history. This will have a profound impact on the region and beyond.

MALE NEWSREADER:

There is real joy here. But there’s also real concern. No one knows what’s going to happen next.

Four Years Earlier

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] This type of trip has its risks—could be ISIS, could be regime, could be Russian agents.

I was close by when this place got hit.

MALE TRANSLATOR:

He was right here when—

MARTIN SMITH, Correspondent:

I met Ahmad al-Sharaa in 2021 in Syria’s Idlib province.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] This is the center of Idlib. It’s not New York’s Times Square.

MALE TRANSLATOR:

It’s not Times Square.

MARTIN SMITH:

My cameraman and I were the first Western journalists to meet him. At the time, he went by his nom de guerre, Abu Mohammad al-Jolani. He was also then a wanted man with a $10 million bounty on his head. And he had a long history as a jihadist. At age 21, al-Jolani joined Al Qaeda in Iraq to fight and kill Americans. Captured by U.S. forces, he spent five years in Iraqi prisons, including Abu Ghraib and Camp Bucca.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] God the Almighty is the one who grants us victory, and if God wants victory, we will achieve it.

MARTIN SMITH:

Soon after he was released, he came back to Syria and formed an Al Qaeda branch to fight Assad.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] —with bombs and booby traps, with rifles, raids, with suicide bombers, with all the strength and energy we have.

MARTIN SMITH:

By the time we met, al-Jolani had broken ties with Al Qaeda and was trying to moderate his image to get the world to reconsider him.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] We go to camps that NGOs have missed or ones they have not reached yet.

MARTIN SMITH:

He took us to a camp of internally displaced Syrians where he assured the residents that he was planning to defeat Assad and send them home.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] God willing, all this is temporary. We hope that you can go back home after we kick the occupiers from this land. Some journalists are here with us today to try and convey the picture to the outside world.

MARTIN SMITH:

Al-Jolani’s key ally in the region was Turkey. It was Turkish intelligence that had taken us into Idlib so al-Jolani could be heard. But at the time, Jolani’s odds of victory were very long. Assad controlled most of the country.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] You are key to the military might of Hayat Tahrir al-Sham (HTS).

MARTIN SMITH:

However, with his army, Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS, al-Jolani was determined to strike at the heart of the Assad regime and march straight to the capital.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] We ask God the Almighty that we enter Damascus soon.

MARTIN SMITH:

Altogether I spent seven days in Idlib. Al-Jolani struck me as remarkably open. At one point, we were taken to his military command headquarters.

HTS OFFICER:

[Speaking Arabic] The front line extends from the north toward Aleppo …

MARTIN SMITH:

Al-Jolani had come to review the current situation on their front lines.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] Iranians in this area …

MARTIN SMITH:

They were facing pressure from Assad’s principal allies, Iran and Russia.

HTS OFFICER:

[Speaking Arabic] There’s an Iranian presence in Saraqib, to the north toward Kafr Aleppo.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] There are Iraqi Shiite militias and Hezbollah fighters.

HTS OFFICER:

[Speaking Arabic] Here, the Russian forces have constant reconnaissance and surveillance, so this area has always seen intensive Russian bombardment.

MARTIN SMITH:

So, are the Russians flying drones over this area?

HTS OFFICER:

[Speaking Arabic] Yes. There are two types of Russian planes. There are warplanes, fighter jets, and surveillance drones, which never leave the airspace.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] Russian planes.

HTS OFFICER:

[Speaking Arabic] Russian warplanes are flying overhead right now.

MARTIN SMITH:

I hear it. I hear it.

HTS OFFICER:

[Speaking Arabic] Yeah, these are the Russian planes. We hear them almost every day.

MARTIN SMITH:

The day after showing me his maps, al-Jolani sat down for an interview.

You are in a box, it seems to me, with the Russians, with the Iranians, with the regime. What is your strategy?

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] We are in a popular revolution and a war to liberate a people from a tyrant. We’re aware of the many risks surrounding the Syrian revolution. We make up for this with the faith that we hold. We’ll keep sacrificing until the last drop of our blood.

MARTIN SMITH:

After I left Idlib I posted a picture of al-Jolani and me on Twitter. The post went viral. Al-Jolani was ridiculed for wearing a suit. I was criticized for talking to a terrorist.

So how did an obscure, besieged rebel leader manage to topple a dictator?

The Road to Damascus

MARTIN SMITH:

It began three years after I met al-Jolani, in November 2024, when his forces launched an assault on Aleppo, Syria’s second-largest city.

HTS SOLDIER:

[Speaking Arabic] Straight into the tunnel, let’s go!

MARTIN SMITH:

They entered from above and below ground, a coordinated ambush utilizing a vast network of tunnels.

HTS SOLDIER:

[Speaking Arabic] Say the prayer, guys. Say the prayer.

HTS SOLDIER:

[Speaking Arabic] Oh God, oh God.

MARTIN SMITH:

The attack blindsided everyone.

JON FINER, Dep. National Security Adviser, 2021-25:

I don’t know of anyone who accurately predicted that Jolani was likely to pose a real threat to the Assad regime. I was the deputy national security advisor, had access to all the intelligence information, analytic information the U.S. government has. I first heard that we should be watching Aleppo from somebody outside of the U.S. government, who said, “You might want to pay attention to what is happening here. It is different from what we’ve seen before.”

MARTIN SMITH:

The city fell to al-Jolani in three days.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] Brothers, I bring you the good news that we have entered Aleppo. I ask all brothers to not enter peoples’ homes and to keep them safe.

We will enter Aleppo as liberators. We will lift the injustice from our people there.

AARON ZELIN, Washington Institute for Near East Policy:

I truly think that they only thought that they were going to take over Aleppo and then hold there and see how that went, and then try to build themselves up strong enough to then move on elsewhere, and that it might take some time. But in fact, because there was no true counteroffensive, the military people were like, “All right, nobody’s going after us, let’s keep on going.”

MALE NEWSREADER:

Syrian rebel fighters are advancing southward after seizing control of Aleppo. That’s one of Syria’s largest cities.

MARTIN SMITH:

As al-Jolani’s forces headed south toward Damascus, the assumption was still that Iran and Russia would come to Assad’s rescue.

MALE NEWSREADER:

Those rebels have just blitzed through the countryside and made enormous gains in the east, in the south.

HTS SOLDIER:

[Speaking Arabic] We entered Hama celebrating, chanting, “God is great.” We entered with God’s support and with these guns and the determination of these men. We took it against their will.

MALE NEWSREADER:

More celebrations today in the city of Hama. The rebels’ advance across the country has been lightning-fast. But where’s the Syrian army in all of this? Because they mostly seem to be surrendering or defecting.

JOSHUA LANDIS:

The Syrian regime completely gave up. Assad’s officers on the front line were getting paid $30 a month, enlisted men about $10 a month.

MARTIN SMITH:

Joshua Landis is a professor at the University of Oklahoma, director of their Center for Middle East Studies.

JOSHUA LANDIS:

American sanctions had really hollowed out that regime, and when we saw the rebel soldiers come down—and many of them had night vision goggles on there, and these fantastic uniforms, much better than anything Assad’s soldiers had—it was clear that Turkey had been really building up these militias. And also Assad lost all of his allies. Hezbollah had been decapitated by Israel. They were major supporters of the Assad regime.

MALE NEWSREADER:

This morning Israel and Hezbollah are exchanging missile and drone attacks across the border.

MARTIN SMITH:

Hezbollah and its patron, Iran, became increasingly engaged with Israel. They had shifted their focus away from Syria.

And Assad’s other ally was also distracted.

JOSHUA LANDIS:

And Russia, of course, was completely preoccupied in Ukraine and had not been resupplying him, so Assad was cut off.

MALE NEWSREADER:

And after decades in the country, Russia is pulling back. This video shows military vehicles with Russian flags leaving the Damascus region.

AMB. JAMES JEFFREY, U.S. Special Rep. for Syria, 2018-20:

According to my contacts, the Russians were ready to go back to the bombing campaign that had been so effective in beating down the Syrian opposition. However, they immediately saw (A) that there was no real effective infantry, because there was almost no Iranian proxy forces from Hezbollah. And once Aleppo fell, it was obvious that whether the Russians dropped bombs or not, it wasn’t going to stop this massive offensive.

FEMALE NEWSREADER:

Last week it was Aleppo. Yesterday, the city of Homs. Last night, the outskirts of Damascus.

MALE NEWSREADER:

At this point it appears that the dictatorship of Bashar al-Assad is crumbling.

IBRAHIM AL-ASSIL, Middle East Institute:

Nobody read what was happening on the ground correctly. Not the outsiders, not Assad and his backers.

MARTIN SMITH:

So Jolani finds himself pushing on an open door.

IBRAHIM AL-ASSIL:

Exactly.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] Today we have an opportunity, because our enemy is in its weakest state.

MARTIN SMITH:

Everyone misread the situation except al-Jolani. In this meeting with followers nearly five years earlier, he predicted precisely how he would achieve victory.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] This criminal regime had one of the largest armies among Arab countries. But today, nine years later, it has been shattered. It’s no longer the army it used to be. If it is abandoned by Russia or Iran, we would be inside of Damascus within a week.

MALE NEWSREADER:

[Speaking Arabic] Breaking news. I alert you to this urgent news: Bashar al-Assad has fled Damascus to an unknown location …

MARTIN SMITH:

So al-Jolani in less than two weeks conquered Syria, just as he had promised.

Why should Americans care about what happens in Syria? Why should Americans care about the fall of Assad or the rise of al-Sharaa?

JAMES JEFFREY:

It’s not that Syria per se is important. It’s that what happens in Syria impacts all of the Middle East. Syria can generate massive refugee flows, and it has terrorism that does not stay in the region, as we saw all over Europe in 2015-16 with the Islamic State. These are issues at the center of the Middle East.

MARTIN SMITH:

And Syria sits squarely in the center of the Middle East, sharing borders with five U.S. strategic partners in the region: Turkey, Iraq, Jordan, Israel and Lebanon.

MARTIN SMITH:

Should it be considered an intelligence failure that we didn’t see either that Jolani, at that time, was a potent force to be dealt with, or that Assad, the regime, was rotting from within?

AMB. BARBARA LEAF, Asst. Sec., Near Eastern Affairs, 2022-25:

Look, I think anyone you might have asked, either in the policy side, the intel side, whether in State, NSC, DOD, our folks in the field, people would’ve been easily able to reckon, yes, the regime is stagnant. You know things are brittle, but you don’t know how brittle they are, and you don’t know what kind of punch knocks the whole thing to pieces.

FEMALE NEWSREADER:

More than two weeks after Assad fled Syria, Syrian families are still searching for answers about so many of their loved ones taken by Assad’s secret police over the years.

FEMALE NEWSREADER:

At least 200,000 people are missing after—

MURHAF JOUEJATI, Syrian academic and diplomat:

I have trouble thinking of the collapse of the Assad regime. It’s 54 years. Fifty-four years that the Syrians have been repressed. And so when in 11 days a regime like this collapses, it takes you time to understand it, to believe it.

MALE NEWSREADER:

And what we’re identifying is multiple mass graves, all these places where hundreds of thousands of bodies, men, women, children and elderly, had been not just shot in the head, but mostly tortured to death. Really a sadistic regime.

MURHAF JOUEJATI:

Anything was better than the Assad regime. We saw the videos, how prisoners were treated.

SYRIAN MAN:

[Speaking Arabic] Congratulations! Come out!

MURHAF JOUEJATI:

The brutality of the regime.

SYRIAN MAN:

[Speaking Arabic] It’s over! Bashar fell. Come out, come out.

MURHAF JOUEJATI:

Children born from raped mothers in prisons, that were born in prisons.

SYRIAN MAN:

[Speaking Arabic] This boy, oh God. Poor boy.

MURHAF JOUEJATI:

Anything other than Assad is good, even if it’s the devil.

The Honeymoon

MARTIN SMITH:

During his first weeks in power, al-Sharaa walked the streets of Damascus, talking to people, reassuring everyone what his plans were.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] We must give Syria its due by restoring people’s dignity and pride and by rebuilding it properly.

CHARLES LISTER, Middle East Institute:

From day one, when Ahmad al-Sharaa took Damascus, he talked about peace and reconciliation, reunifying the country.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] There is no greater duty than working to reunite the Syrian people.

CHARLES LISTER:

He talked about disarmament, demobilization and reintegration. He used all of the phrases that you would read in a textbook about a political transition.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] This is an invitation to all Syrians to participate in building a new homeland …

MARTIN SMITH:

The world’s press soon arrived to meet and talk with the new leader.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] God willing, we are Syrians, we can live together without problems.

MARTIN SMITH:

As did a parade of foreign diplomats.

CHARLES LISTER:

The world rushed to Damascus. Foreign ministers, emirs, prime ministers, presidents are seeking to shake Ahmad al-Sharaa’s hand, amazed by this historic opportunity, first time in more than 50 years, to reshape the heart of the Middle East for the better.

PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN:

As we all turn to the question of what comes next in Syria—

MARTIN SMITH:

In Washington, the Biden administration was weighing what it should do.

JOE BIDEN:

We’ve taken note of statements by the leaders of these rebel groups in recent days. And they’re saying the right things now.

JON FINER:

We were struck by the interviews that Jolani gave in the early days after assuming power, in which, yes, he quote-unquote “said the right things,” but said them with a degree of sophistication and conviction and detail.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] An interim parliament will then be formed, and the interim parliament will then form a constitutional committee …

JON FINER:

He gave us some reason to believe that this might be a different sort of leader. So we decided that at a certain point we would need to engage.

MARTIN SMITH:

Less than two weeks after al-Sharaa’s victory, a U.S. State Department delegation headed by Barbara Leaf set out from neighboring Jordan to meet with him.

BARBARA LEAF:

We took off down the highway at speed and we drove through a very dilapidated countryside, I will say, really looked beaten down.

As we got into Damascus, it was difficult to measure what security would be like. Were there militias roaming at will? Was there any security? Had all the remnants of the regime fled for good?

MARTIN SMITH:

They arrived at the presidential palace 12 days after Assad had fled to Moscow.

BARBARA LEAF:

So we were walked into this big cavernous palace and taken upstairs, and all of a sudden there they were.

MARTIN SMITH:

Talk about how he struck you.

ROGER CARSTENS, Special Pres. Envoy, Hostage Affairs, 2020-25:

Having worked for many four-star generals in the American military, I felt like I was talking to a very senior general, not that different than an American commander, who had a very deep understanding of warfare, economics, policy, what he wanted to achieve, how he might want to achieve it. I walked away impressed.

BARBARA LEAF:

He just had this air of calm, quiet authority and a whiff of charisma, frankly. I mean, I had to almost close my eyes and remind myself I was talking to a Syrian official, with the very easy way he talked about Israel. No diatribes, no recitation of 40 years of history, the way Hafez al-Assad would “Let me tell you about 1948” sort of start of the conversation. And of course at that time, the Israelis had moved in up on the Golan Heights on Syrian soil—

MARTIN SMITH:

And they were bombing.

BARBARA LEAF:

And they were bombing.

MALE VOICE:

[Speaking Arabic] May God curse you, Israel.

MARTIN SMITH:

Israel, long in a state of war with Syria, immediately started bombing and dismantling Syria’s remaining military capabilities.

MALE NEWSREADER:

Israel has been bombarding every part of Syria’s military—fighter jets, naval assets, surface-to-surface missiles. They have taken out everything.

MARTIN SMITH:

The Israelis say they told the Biden administration what they were planning to do. Al-Sharaa asked Barbara Leaf to get Israel to stop.

BARBARA LEAF:

He was very matter-of-fact in his request. He said, “Could you get the Israelis to stop bombing? They’re scaring my people.” And he was at pains to say repeatedly, “We have no argument with Israel.”

MICHAEL HERZOG:

I don’t doubt that al-Sharaa has no interest in going to war with Israel.

MARTIN SMITH:

Michael Herzog was Israeli ambassador to the U.S. at the time. He told me that Israel was particularly worried about Assad’s weapons and chemical stockpiles falling into the wrong hands.

MICHAEL HERZOG:

We all know the background of al-Sharaa and the people around him. They all come from the schools of Al Qaeda and ISIS. They all have jihadi background, and that was, and remains, a source of concern in Israel.

MARTIN SMITH:

How does continuing to strike militarily with bombs encourage al-Sharaa’s moderation? It would seem to me the opposite’s true, that that encourages the jihadists.

MICHAEL HERZOG:

Well, Israel is not going to strike military capabilities forever. There’s—The more we do it, the less there is left to destroy. And again, we’re talking about specific military capabilities that we do not want to be there because they could be used against us, either by this new regime or by others.

MARTIN SMITH:

Initially, Israel did say the bombing campaign would be brief.

GIDEON SAAR, Israeli Foreign Minister:

I emphasize it is a very limited and temporary step.

MARTIN SMITH:

But Israel has continued striking targets for months, killing an estimated two dozen civilians in the process. Israel has also seized land in southern Syria, expanding what it calls its “security zone.”

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] This ongoing Israeli aggression, along with the military attacks …

MARTIN SMITH:

At an Arab summit in March, al-Sharaa asked for help.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] We also urge the international community to fulfill its legal and moral obligations in supporting Syria’s rights and pressuring Israel to immediately withdraw from southern Syria.

MURHAF JOUEJATI, Prof., U.S. Naval Academy:

I think behind Israel is an agenda, is an intention to weaken Syria, to break it up and to expand Israeli boundaries, without any accountability by the international community. And that is really the recipe for future violence, not for peace.

MARTIN SMITH:

They don’t see it that way.

MURHAF JOUEJATI:

The French and the British, when they carved up the Middle East, didn’t see it that way either.

MALE DRIVER:

[Speaking Arabic] Is this the right road?

FEMALE PRODUCER:

[Speaking Arabic] Correct. We’ll make a right soon.

MALE DRIVER:

[Speaking Arabic] OK.

MARTIN SMITH:

By mid-January 2025, when I returned to Syria, I was planning on seeing al-Sharaa again, but it seemed he was distracted—his honeymoon was coming to an end. Resistance to his government was emerging around the country.

Defiance

MARTIN SMITH:

A large pocket was here in the south, in the city of Sweida, the heartland of Syria’s Druze. The Druze are a minority religious group, an ancient offshoot of Shia Islam. And since al-Sharaa came to power they have been reluctant to support him or trust his jihadist followers.

SHAKIB AZAAM:

[Speaking Arabic] We do not trust them because we do not recognize their legitimacy. They can’t overnight decide to become a government.

MARTIN SMITH:

Shakib Azaam is commander of a large Druze militia called the Mountain Brigade. His people, he said, felt excluded. He complained that the new government was stacked with al-Sharaa’s own people.

SHAKIB AZAAM:

[Speaking Arabic] The people surrounding al-Sharaa, he appointed them as judges, as ministers, officials all over the country. He directed everything, the forces that were with him, this entourage to manage this country. It’s unacceptable. We’re moving from one authoritarian regime to another. This is not acceptable.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] Syria’s priorities today are, first, filling the power vacuum in a legitimate and lawful manner.

MARTIN SMITH:

The complaint that I heard is that Sharaa was stocking his cabinet with friends from his government in Idlib, and they were all fellow Islamists. Was it inevitable that al-Sharaa did that?

JOSHUA LANDIS, Prof., University of Oklahoma:

I should think it is. He’s been fighting a war since he’s 20 years old. He’s been a warrior. He’s been leading a militia that is deeply Islamist. When he first got to Idlib, he said, “This is going to be an entity for Sunnis.” And so there’s this deep Sunni supremacist attitude that comes along with him.

MARTIN SMITH:

Under scrutiny was one of al-Sharaa’s initial cabinet members. His justice minister was filmed in 2015 overseeing the execution of two women in Idlib accused of corruption and prostitution.

SHADI AL-WAISI:

[Speaking Arabic] The Council of Scholars, which approved this ruling, decided to carry out this punishment.

MARTIN SMITH:

How do you explain his appointment of a justice minister who is, in video, executing two women?

MURHAF JOUEJATI:

He’s gotten a lot of protests over this. There are still extremist elements, and this is the source of concern to many secular Syrians. Mr. al-Sharaa is walking a tightrope.

MARTIN SMITH:

Al-Sharaa has since replaced his Justice minister, and by the end of March he formed a new cabinet that was much more inclusive.

It’s very interesting. Do you speak English?

But these Druze leaders may not be assuaged. They cite too much bad history.

NAJIB ABU FAKHR, Druze leader:

You can’t say for us, “Oh, today I am angel and forget my history.” You know? It’s not enough to say, “OK, yesterday, I was Al Qaeda. Yesterday, my leader is Osama bin Laden. But today, my leader is the Syrian free man.”

MARTIN SMITH:

Ten years earlier, members of al-Sharaa’s group executed 20 Druze in an Idlib village, accusing them of heresy. Al-Sharaa’s group later said the attack went against his orders.

MARTIN SMITH:

There is a very important struggle going on right now—

Today in Sweida, the Druze are refusing to give up their guns.

How many men do you have in arms?

SHAKIB AZAAM:

[Speaking Arabic] All of Sweida’s citizens are fighters. We’re holding onto our weapons. We believe our weapons are our protection.

MARTIN SMITH:

The day after my meeting with the Mountain Brigade we got a tip from a local journalist.

MALE DRIVER:

[Speaking Arabic] It’s a security convoy.

MARTIN SMITH:

There was a large convoy of al-Sharaa’s soldiers patrolling in the nearby countryside.

MARTIN SMITH:

That’s a big convoy.

SCOTT ANGER, Co-producer:

It is a big convoy. Let’s try to follow them.

MARTIN SMITH:

They were going from town to town in a show of force, assuring Syrians that al-Sharaa was restoring order in the country.

SOLDIER FROM SECURITY CONVOY:

[Speaking Arabic] We need your help. We have a list of names, including drug dealers, thieves, [Assad] regime loyalists …

MARTIN SMITH:

But the soldiers were also here demanding loyalty, warning everyone in no uncertain terms to cooperate in the fight against any armed resistance to al-Sharaa’s government.

SOLDIER FROM SECURITY CONVOY:

[Speaking Arabic] Anyone who’s being manipulated by the former regime to spread chaos in this country, we’ll be on the lookout for them. We will show no mercy. We’ll use an iron fist. You will lead, and we’ll be behind you.

MARTIN SMITH:

At the end of the day, these soldiers paused to pray, a common Muslim ritual. But al-Sharaa’s forces are staunchly conservative Sunnis. As seen by the Druze from nearby Sweida or by defeated Assad loyalists, rule by a band of Islamists is deeply troubling. Under Assad, religion was downplayed. Assad was an Alawite, a minority sect of Islam, but he promoted a largely secular vision for Syria.

The Massacre

MARTIN SMITH:

Assad’s base was here along Syria’s Mediterranean coast, in communities with a concentration of Alawites. After Assad’s defeat, some coastal residents feared for their safety, and there were reports that some were being targeted.

Then, in early March, some Assad loyalists attacked one of al-Sharaa’s government patrols.

SYRIAN MAN:

[Speaking Arabic] All our friends, all our friends.

MARTIN SMITH:

Sixteen men lay dead. And more lethal attacks followed.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] With your heinous act of killing those who protect and serve Syria, you have attacked all Syrians. So hand over your weapons and turn yourselves in before it’s too late.

MALE NEWSREADER:

And today what we’re seeing is a huge security operation targeting forces loyal to the Assad regime.

JOSHUA LANDIS:

And so there was a general mobilization of the military. And then the mosques began to call for jihad.

SYRIAN IMAM:

[Speaking Arabic] No sect should ever disrupt our peace. By God, we long for martyrdom and for killing. Do your souls call you to jihad, or not?

CONGREGATION:

[Speaking Arabic] God is great!

MARTIN SMITH:

Tensions had been building for weeks with provocative online threats, like these against the Alawites—

MILITIA MEMBER:

[Speaking Arabic] The Alawite pigs will get what they deserve.

MARTIN SMITH:

—some linked to suspicious foreign accounts.

MILITIA MEMBER:

[Speaking Arabic] I swear, if I come across an Alawite whether they were involved or not …

MILITIA MEMBER:

[Speaking Arabic] No one from the Alawite sect should be left alive.

JOSHUA LANDIS:

You know, put hate in your hearts, go to that coast, smash the Alawites.

MARTIN SMITH:

Thousands of militiamen joined al-Sharaa’s government forces and descended on the coast.

MILITIA MEMBER:

[Speaking Arabic] Louder! Hurry up, boy!

JOSHUA LANDIS:

And then just a flood of videos begin to come out. And some of the soldiers, and these militiamen, making Alawites, long strings of them, walk on their hands and knees, bark like a dog.

MILITIA MEMBER:

[Speaking Arabic] Louder!

JOSHUA LANDIS:

And then they started carrying out these massacres. Just shooting people up and down. It was a free-for-all. And they were having a good time!

MILITIA MEMBER:

[Speaking Arabic] Dead animals, dead animals. Alawites.

MILITIA MEMBER:

[Speaking Arabic] Now we have cleansed the coast.

MILITIA MEMBER:

[Speaking Arabic] Honestly, this happiness feels better for us than the happiness we felt at liberation.

MALE WITNESS:

[Speaking Arabic] They would round up the men, sometimes on the roof. And they would shoot them in the head. Men, women, even children who were a year old were killed. My neighbor, who was seven months pregnant, was killed.

MARTIN SMITH:

This eyewitness says three of his family members were executed. We’re blurring his face to protect his identity.

MALE WITNESS:

[Speaking Arabic] Are you Sunni or Alawite? That was the only question. I was able to hide inside a house under construction. That’s how I survived.

I brought my family to a graveyard. There were already about 100 bodies there. And every 15 minutes the Red Crescent ambulance would bring new bodies. There are still hundreds missing, and no one knows anything about them.

MILITIA MEMBER:

[Speaking Arabic] Victory over remnants of the fallen regime. Thanks be to God.

MILITIA MEMBER:

[Speaking Arabic] We killed them.

MARTIN SMITH:

So you wake up to these images that are then online, and you and your wife are together.

JOSHUA LANDIS:

Yeah.

MARTIN SMITH:

She’s Alawite.

JOSHUA LANDIS:

She’s Alawite.

MARTIN SMITH:

You have relatives, in-laws, living there.

JOSHUA LANDIS:

Yeah. Three of my wife’s cousins wrote us the next day. People came to their door, bang, bang, bang. You open it up, “Who are you? Sunni or Alawite?” It was the first thing that each one of them said they were asked. One cousin, who grew up with my son, we knew well, was shot at his doorstep. He was 19, 20 years old.

MARTIN SMITH:

Over the course of several days, an estimated 1,200 people were killed, mostly Alawites.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] There is no one above the law, and anyone with Syrian blood on their hands will face justice very soon. We want to assure the Syrian people …

MARTIN SMITH:

Al-Sharaa called for a thorough investigation.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] We announced the formation of a fact-finding committee to review and investigate the events on the coast, to bring those involved to justice and reveal the facts to the Syrian people.

IBRAHIM AL-ASSIL:

This investigation committee, will they actually provide reports with names? Will those people be held accountable? Those are real tests, to look at them and ask al-Sharaa, “If you do that, we trust you. If you don’t, no, we don’t trust you.”

MALE NEWSREADER:

Damascus says it has successfully contained the offensive on the coast. But while Ahmad al-Sharaa may be in control of some of the men in uniforms, he is not in control of all of the men with guns.

A Broken Promise

MARTIN SMITH:

It is in Syria’s far northeastern corner where al-Sharaa faces perhaps his biggest challenge. This is the homeland of Syria’s Kurds, the largest non-Arab minority in Syria.

Kurds have long been subject to systematic discrimination, including the arbitrary denial of citizenship to around 150,000 Syria-born Kurds, who are not allowed to have passports, who can’t own property, get a marriage license or find work. Whose children are also considered noncitizens.

Kurds have not fared well elsewhere, either. They form the largest stateless ethnic group in the world, with 30 million people concentrated in an area straddling Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria.

After Syria’s civil war began in 2012, Kurds here in the northeast broke free of Assad and established a semi-autonomous region they call Rojava.

How did Syria ever lose control of the northeast?

JAMES JEFFREY:

When Assad’s forces faced massive armed opposition during the Arab Spring, they pulled troops out of the northeast to hold off against the opposition, the resistance in the rest of the country. So the Kurds split off, and they’re currently a state within a state.

MALE NEWSREADER:

[Speaking Kurdish] Today is a day that all Kurdish people have been waiting for, holding the Kurdish Unity Conference in Rojava …

MARTIN SMITH:

I went to Rojava in April 2025 to see and hear the Kurds’ powerful and immensely popular rebel leader, Gen. Mazloum Abdi Kobane.

GEN. MAZLOUM ABDI KOBANE, Syrian Democratic Forces:

[Speaking Kurdish] Since the founding of the Syrian state, we have been marginalized. This message is directed to all Syrians and to the government in Damascus. We advocate for a Syria where all communities are equally represented in the constitution. We call for a democratic Syria, one that embraces all of its people, including us.

MARTIN SMITH:

After the conference, I met with Gen. Mazloum at his headquarters.

I want to begin by talking about this unity conference that took place yesterday. I was there. What is the significance of the declaration that came out of that conference?

MAZLOUM ABDI KOBANE:

[Speaking Kurdish] It was an historic day for the Syrian Kurds. The Kurdish people have been denied their rights throughout Syria’s history. The Kurdish people want their rights spelled out in the constitution.

MARTIN SMITH:

Do the people trust a former Al Qaeda commander to rule Syria or to preserve or to give you autonomy?

MAZLOUM ABDI KOBANE:

[Speaking Kurdish] We had a situation with [al-Sharaa’s] Syrian opposition back in 2012-13. There was intense fighting between our forces. Our people are indeed concerned and hesitant.

[Street mural] “Woman, life, freedom!”

MARTIN SMITH:

From al-Sharaa’s perspective, integrating the Kurds back into Syria is essential. He needed to make a deal.

And why is northeast Syria important to al-Sharaa?

CHARLES LISTER, Syria Weekly:

Northeastern Syria contains 80% of Syria’s natural energy resources. So, oil and gas, hugely significant. The lifeblood of the Syrian economy. And then on top of that, it’s the agricultural belt of the country. So if Syria is able to get anywhere close to feeding itself, it needs that region of Syria. Without that under Damascus’s control, there really is no hope.

JOSHUA LANDIS:

And then there’s water. Rojava controls the Euphrates River, in part, and the dam. So that northeast, very important for the economy, oil, agriculture, water.

MARTIN SMITH:

Mazloum also leads a 100,000-man U.S.-backed army—the Syrian Democratic Forces, or SDF, which is battle-hardened and well-supplied. The Americans trained and equipped the SDF to help them defeat ISIS after a large swath of Kurdish territory was seized by ISIS in 2014.

AARON ZELIN, Jihadology:

The SDF definitely has some power in the negotiation with Sharaa not only in terms of the resources, but also because they have a pretty robust military that’s been trained by the United States and the global coalition, too. And some have said that it might even be a larger military than the one that’s currently in Damascus.

MARTIN SMITH:

But the Kurds still have an ISIS problem. They have around 10,000 suspected ISIS fighters locked up in Kurdish prisons, along with two massive camps filled with 40,000 women and children, the families of these prisoners.

In the Kurdish city of Hasakah, I was allowed a look inside one of these prisons—

Can I look in some of these cells?

—this one filled with foreign fighters.

Do you speak English?

MALE PRISONER:

Yeah.

MARTIN SMITH:

Your brothers in this cell. Tell me, where are they from? What countries?

MALE PRISONER:

There’s people from all over the world with me.

MARTIN SMITH:

Just foreigners together. And how are you treated?

The Kurds need help repatriating these prisoners. No one wants to take them.

Kurds have something like 29 prisons full of ISIS prisoners. You’re trying to repatriate them.

MAZLOUM ABDI KOBANE:

[Speaking Kurdish] This is indeed a complicated matter. We ultimately want the countries where they come from to be willing to rehabilitate them. Solving this issue will take time.

MARTIN SMITH:

After weeks of negotiations, Mazloum set out for Damascus to meet al-Sharaa and hammer out an agreement on Kurdish rights, autonomy, on resources, the military and ISIS.

JOSHUA LANDIS:

The broad outlines were that Mazloum would put the SDF, the Syrian Democratic Forces, under the authority of the Ministry of Defense in Damascus. And they came up with an agreement on oil that was going to give the Kurds a big share of all oil revenues.

MARTIN SMITH:

And finally there were issues concerning Kurdish status in the new Syria. Al-Sharaa specifically agreed to recognize Kurds as fully Syrian and he guaranteed their constitutional rights.

JOSHUA LANDIS:

The Kurds want Syria to be called the Syrian Republic. So it’d be Syria for all Syrians. Traditionally, it’s been the Syrian Arab Republic.

MARTIN SMITH:

Initially, Kurds celebrated the agreement.

KURDISH CROWD [chanting]:

[Speaking Kurdish] One, one, one! Syrian people are one!

MALE NEWSREADER:

Breaking news: Syria’s government has struck a deal—

MALE NEWSREADER:

—after weeks of negotiations between Damascus and the Kurds—

MALE NEWSREADER:

The Syrian state is recognizing the Kurdish community as an integral part of Syria. That is a major, major development …

MARTIN SMITH:

Then, three days later, al-Sharaa issued a new Syrian Constitution. It was not what Mazloum envisioned.

JOSHUA LANDIS:

It said “Syrian Arab Republic,” right at the top. And it didn’t write the Kurds in. It didn’t give them representation. It didn’t outline the agreement.

MARTIN SMITH:

The constitution did promise to protect minority rights, but the Kurds said the language was too vague.

The document also contained Article 3, which deals with Islamic jurisprudence.

JOSHUA LANDIS:

It was changed from “Islamic law will be a source of law.” That’s what it was under Assad. Now it’s “Islamic law will be the source of law.” So this makes it very, potentially Sharia law will become the law of the land. This sent a shudder through many of the minority communities.

MALE PROTESTER:

[Speaking Kurdish] We don’t want this constitution.

MALE PROTESTER:

[Speaking Kurdish] Ahmad al-Sharaa and his new government in Damascus want to establish a religious Sunni state. We will never accept that.

MAZLOUM ABDI KOBANE:

[Speaking Kurdish] The interim constitution contradicts our initial agreement with Damascus.

MARTIN SMITH:

I would imagine you were tempted to pick up the phone and call al-Sharaa and say, “What’s going on?”

MAZLOUM ABDI KOBANE:

[Speaking Kurdish] Sure, we did that. We expressed our discontent to them and criticized it.

MARTIN SMITH:

In an open letter, Kurdish authorities laid out their complete rejection of the new constitution and its attempt to re-create a dictatorship. Syria, they wrote, “is a homeland for all its people. We will not accept the reconstruction of an authoritarian regime.”

CROWD [chanting]:

[Speaking Kurdish] —fall of Jolani! The people demand the fall of Jolani!

MARTIN SMITH:

To date, al-Sharaa has decided not to revise the constitution.

MALE PROTESTER:

[Speaking Kurdish] Democracy for Syria!

MARTIN SMITH:

The question I have is how he could, three days after having this deal signed with Mazloum, come out with a constitutional declaration, at the very top it says “the Syrian Arab Republic.”

BARBARA LEAF:

Yes. That is a glaring piece that has not been fixed. He’s making mistakes.

MARTIN SMITH:

I went back to speak via Zoom with Ambassador Barbara Leaf.

BARBARA LEAF:

If he wants a stable Syria, he’s going to be compelled to take into account the changed landscape of Syria. Changed by 14 years of this brutal civil war. But he has to look at a longer scope of history where these communities were pitted against one another. So the high degree of mistrust is in multiple directions, but they all mistrust Damascus.

The Road Ahead

MARTIN SMITH:

I wanted to hear al-Sharaa’s response to all the turmoil around the country. I repeatedly pressed for an interview—to no avail.

We did visit this courthouse in the city of Homs, central Syria. We met this man, Chief Judge Hassan al-Aqraa, a staunch supporter of al-Sharaa. At the time, al-Aqraa was systematically going through all the files that were seized from the Assad regime. He said new laws were still being written.

HASSAN AL-AQRAA:

[Speaking Arabic] I have a degree in Sharia Law and, thank God, I have extensive judicial experience. But handling the judiciary requires some patience until new laws, decrees and regulations are introduced. We strive to build a Syria for all Syrians, a Syria where all sects coexist under the leadership of Mr. Ahmad al-Sharaa. So the world can rest assured that the next Syria is a better Syria.

AHMAD AL-SHARAA:

[Speaking Arabic] Today, Syria is creating a new history. You’re building it with your own hands. We have what it takes to build on every level, in every area. We just need to work together, to agree rather than disagree.

MARTIN SMITH:

In May, President Trump made a trip to the Middle East. There was a jolt of good news for al-Sharaa.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP:

After discussing the situation in Syria with the Crown Prince, your Crown Prince—

MARTIN SMITH:

In Saudi Arabia, Trump announced that economic sanctions imposed during the Assad regime would finally be lifted.

DONALD TRUMP:

I will be ordering the cessation of sanctions against Syria in order to give them a chance at greatness.

MARTIN SMITH:

Despite opposition from some hawks in D.C., Trump was widely praised for the move.

People in the administration were opposed to this. So what was behind all that?

BARBARA LEAF:

I think it’s very clear what was behind that. He heard over the last several months consistently from the Saudis, from Erdoğan, from others, that this was an existential moment for Syria to get onto a path, a long one, albeit, but a path of recovery and successful political and economic and security transition. And that that would be good for regional interests, that would be good for U.S. interests.

MARTIN SMITH:

The following day, al-Sharaa and Trump met. The former Al Qaeda commander, who spent years in American prison camps in Iraq accused of making powerful roadside bombs, had come a long way.

DONALD TRUMP:

Young, attractive guy. Tough guy. You know. Strong past, very strong past. Fighter.

MURHAF JOUEJATI:

The situation is very fluid. We just have to wait and see what happens. We need to see this new administration be inclusive of all Syrians. We need to make sure that Syria will no longer be a center of terrorism.

JAMES JEFFREY:

If Syria can be united and stable and Iran can be kept out, then the temporary tactical defeat of Iran and proxies will become a permanent defeat. If not, if Syria becomes a failed state, if it goes back to active fighting and various outside forces intervening and split up, it will open the door for Iran again.

MARTIN SMITH:

As we were leaving Syria, events underscored just how fragile al-Sharaa’s rule is. Sectarian clashes erupted in several cities after a Druze religious leader was falsely accused of insulting the Prophet Muhammad. Around 100 Druze militiamen and government security forces were killed.

PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:

[Speaking Hebrew] We will not tolerate any threat to the Druze community in southern Syria.

MARTIN SMITH:

The Israelis, with a large Druze minority at home, have been issuing warnings to al-Sharaa not to harm the Druze.

MALE NEWSREADER:

Israel carried out airstrikes today in Damascus—

MARTIN SMITH:

To make their point, an Israeli missile landed right outside al-Sharaa’s palace gates.

MALE NEWSREADER:

—a direct message to stop threatening the Druze community.

MARTIN SMITH:

For now, al-Sharaa remains popular with the majority of Syrians. But he has been keeping a lower profile of late, avoiding most interviews.

I mean, he enjoyed a honeymoon. He talked to diplomats like yourself. He talked to journalists. He visited other regional states. But he’s been relatively quiet. He’s not in a honeymoon phase anymore.

BARBARA LEAF:

No. And governance is hard. The easy part is going on a foreign trip, but the hardest part is internally. It’s governance. It’s the daily slog of reconstructing an administrative apparatus, which is pretty worn and torn and riddled with corruption from the years of destruction of the Assad family rule. It’s a hard, hard road ahead.

Al-Sharaa continues to call for unity and peace.

In June, a suspected ISIS suicide bomber killed more than 20 people inside a church in Damascus.

Sporadic violence against Syria’s Alawite community continues.

In April, the deadline for the government’s investigation was extended by three months.

Al-Sharaa has entered indirect talks with Israel over their ongoing bombing and incursions.

He has not publicly commented on the war between Israel and Iran.

WRITTEN BY Martin Smith

PRODUCED BY Martin Smith Brian Funck Marcela Gaviria

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