TOP

Adela Raz

Chapters

The FRONTLINE Interviews

Adela Raz

Last Ambassador of Afghanistan to the U.S.

Adela Raz served as the last ambassador of Afghanistan to the United States, a role she held when the Taliban returned to power in 2021. She previously served as the first female ambassador and permanent representative of Afghanistan to the United Nations.

The following interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on April 4, 2024, prior to Joe Biden’s withdrawal from the presidential race. It has been edited for clarity and length.

This interview appears in:

Biden’s Decision

Text Interview:

Highlight text to share it

Advocating for Women During Peace Negotiations with the Taliban

Let me start with you and who you are when you arrive as ambassador to the United Nations at that time, who had you been, and how did you end up there?

I arrived to New York and to the United Nations as the first woman ambassador, first woman permanent representative of Afghanistan to the U.N.And considering that Afghanistan was among the countries who first joined the United Nations, so never having a woman there, it was a significant honor for me.And at the time when I arrived, I was a mother of one child, and I was expecting my second child.So foremost, the first thing that it really signified with me was being a mother.And I came with my mom, so I think really a crew of women that arrived in New York, and really, the important responsibility, and at the same time, it was a critical juncture of our history, contemporary history for Afghanistan as well, because we were in the process of a peace negotiation.

… So you were, during those negotiations, trying to advocate for Afghan women.Did you get a sense that the American negotiators took that onboard; that the American side, as it was in those negotiations, was taking it seriously, was taking Afghan women and Afghan people, in general, as a priority?

I think improvement could have been made for sure.When you look into any peace negotiation, actual peace negotiations happening, it never succeeds.It has not been successful if women were not part of it.So it happened in other countries as well, that the peace negotiations were not successful when women were excluded. ...And for Afghanistan as well, I think, because the 20 years was such a unique experience in our contemporary history, where women created a political agency, women created a predominant force within the society, and with that, the younger generation as well.I'm constantly mentioning that, too, because there had been repeated mistakes, in the case of Afghanistan, that the voice of youth were not included in any type of discussion, including peace as well.

So more engagement with women and genuine consideration of their thoughts or their concerns would have been a very impactful way forward.For instance, I will give you an example.When the negotiation between the U.S. government at the time and then Taliban started, and then the following intra-Afghan negotiation that was part of it, that will take place, or the peace talks, the people who really raised concern for the first time, it was Afghan women.We said it from the first day onward that we cannot trust Taliban with what they are saying, with what they are trying to "portray" their commitment.

And as for today, even then they did not clearly make a commitment that we presumed that that commitment was women's rights, because every formal document that was—or statement that came out from the Taliban's negotiating team, they never ever openly said they will allow women to school.They said exactly what they had said 22 years ago; they said what they are saying right now, that they will look into women's school according to the Islamic and Sharia law.And that's a gray area for their definition.

So we raised alerts.We told everyone, "We are not sure.We are concerned.They do not believe in the rights of women, and they will not deliver what you, per se, are telling us they're communicating to you."And the response that we always heard, I think, the first one was, “Well, peace requires compromises.”I was told this very up front, directly, when I raised my concern at the time when one of the senior U.S. officials, who was part of the negotiations.And I said, “Look, there are two concerns for me as a younger generation.”And I called myself, at the time, younger generation—not anymore by now.And then, as woman, too, it's the democratic principles, because this was the hard-won gain we had made in the 20 years.And I said, “What will happen to the constitution we have, and second, the constitution rights granted to Afghan women?”And I was told, “Peace requires compromises.”And to me, that meant, well, not sure it's going to go away.And I got out of that meeting nervous, concerned, worried, and I said to everyone, “I don't think so.Our rights will be part of it.”

So you heard the compromise, and you were concerned.

Yes. And I was concerned, and we were concerned; Afghan women were concerned.And I think our concerns were accurate.Look where we are.It's exactly what we had said to everyone, because we knew Taliban, that ideologically, they do not believe in women's right.Ideologically, they don't believe in women being as an active citizen of the society.And we knew what they did then, when the first time they arrived.And we told everyone—we told our allies, we told the international community, and we were very vocal.It's on the record if you look into any single interview of Afghan women at the time, until today.I think our concerns were what we had predicted what is happening today.And that was clear.

Did they not believe you, or was the administration so determined to make a deal to get out that it overrode those concerns about democracy and women's rights?

I think it was a combination of both.It was a combination of—there was a determination to get out, which was understandable.I think it was many years of engagement in Afghanistan militarily.And second, also, I think they really believed those who were in Doha and telling them what they are saying, but that's where the repeated mistakes happened, at least in the case of Afghanistan, and I think it's happening in other countries as well.Our memory is so short.We don't look back.We don't look into the historical data.We don't look into the nature of the argument, because even then, when—as for me, being pretty junior, and not the political analyst, but if I could look into any single statement that came out, formal statement, formal statement, there is—and I think I have to make a distinction, Taliban individuals speaking or a joint statement out of the negotiations arriving.If you look into—there is not even a single statement that says, “We allow girls' education,” and then leave it blank.No, they said, “Yes.We allow girls' education.”They say the same thing even now, but according to Islam.

And that's where the loophole arrives.They said this, as I said.First time when they arrived, they are saying it now; they said it during the negotiation as well.So basically it was, I think, a combination of getting out first, soon, and then also somehow believe what [the] Taliban are saying.And third, I think not really thoroughly looking what the history of Afghanistan was and what we have learned from those years.So it was a combination.And I don't know.Maybe genuinely they just thought, we are a minority, and what we are saying is a small group of women.

But look right now what is happening.Until today, Afghan women have not settled.They're still on the streets.They're still on the road.They're still demanding their rights.And they have not given up.And we won't give up.

A Mixed Reaction to the Peace Deal and Fear for the Future

When you hear that a deal has been concluded, what feeling do you have?What reaction do you have?

Yes. It was a mixed reaction.Mixed reaction in a sense of being worried and being, probably, optimistic at least as well, too, because I think there was a part of me thinking, maybe this time peace will come, right?Because look.I was raised and born in an era that had faced instability.I always remember my first concept of peace that I processed it, in war.It was when I was in the first grade, and I lost a classmate of mine to a rocket attack.

And that's where I felt what war is to all, when you lose your dear ones, not too much in my early youth years and childhood.I had lost my uncles in war.So for us, I think for the Afghan generation, war is just not a myth.We live in it.We had seen it.We had seen its brutality.I, in my lifetime, at least in Afghanistan, we had lost our home three times.And my childhood memory was constantly moving from one part of Kabul to another part of Kabul, because there was always a war.And I had seen rocket attack and rocket launchers in front of our house.

So it's painful.It is very, very painful.And you grow up with the stories, the stories of your cousin being killed, your great-uncle being killed in this war, in this fight.And so it's hard.And you do want to arrive to a moment, to think that, well, it's going to end, and now there is the peace chapter opening up.So I think probably that was also part of it, and probably for a lot of people had the same feeling, a mixed feeling.Well, maybe our fear might be not accurate; maybe it is going to be a peace, and then there will be an intra-Afghan negotiations, and we will arrive to the discussion.

But I think even that mixed feeling didn't last too long, because as soon as the intra-Afghan negotiations started, those who were in the negotiating team, they came, and then they said, “We are completely off.”And I said, “How?”They said, “The discussion we have with Taliban, it's not negotiations; it's a surrender.They expect us to surrender, because they already feel they have won this war.They speak from a position of accomplishment.It means they have made a deal already, and there is no need to talk with us anymore.”

So even that moment or that feeling of mixed feeling didn't last too long, as soon as the actual direct talks started between the Afghan side, I think, for some who were in the negotiating team, that was their observation, and they got out of it.

And the American government, does it feel like they have abandoned you, at that point, to the Taliban, that feels like they just want a surrender?

I think the feeling of an abandonment really arrived when the withdrawal happened, right?I think when the actual physically Taliban arrived in Afghanistan.I think those images of the airport that were shared, I think that's where, to me, the definition of abandonment arrived.That felt thousands of Afghans outside Kabul Airport trying to find any possible window to run away out of fear, out of concern, out of not expecting what is going to—not knowing what is going to happen, unpredictability, and really refuge to a better world, because they just knew what [the] Taliban will bring.It's darkness at this moment.

And just seeing those images, people hanging themselves to a plane, I think that's, to me, personally to me, that's where it felt.And maybe it is part of the Afghan—I don't know, people say we're resilient, and sometimes I like the word; sometimes I don't.It's almost, I think, part of us that we have seen so much in our lifetime that even if there is a 1% sparkle of hope, you hold onto it.You still don't feel like abandoned.You feel like, "This 1% probably will work," right?So I think that felt more heavy.

A Deadline for Withdrawal

Let me go back to the beginning of that year.And a deadline had been set, and then there's questions about the new administration coming in and whether they would keep the deadline.I think you're still in New York at that point.

Yes.

But as you're watching that, and you see the announcement that the new President Biden makes about the deadline, what do you think when you hear that?

So when the new administration arrived, you're right.I think there was this window of expecting that President Biden will change what President Trump had agreed to, which was the commitment to that set date of withdrawal, correct?And it's very natural that you do have that expectations.And if you remember, there was also an announcement by President Biden's administration at the time that they said they are evaluating Afghanistan's policy.They had not made a clear statement which direction they will go.And it was a general feeling.It was a national feeling to all Afghans.Even I heard from Taliban when they were in Doha, they weren't sure which direction things will go.

But then it did not take too long, at least personally for me, I think maybe it is just because I was educated in the U.S. and the readout of the society and the read of the possible policy steps is a little bit more natural to me, just because I studied here for six years.And I started to see articles coming out, analyses were coming out.It was mixed, but there were analyses that made sense for withdrawal, made so much sense for the withdrawal, right?

And when I started to read those, and I said, “You know what?I think that's where the pace will move.This is where the direction will go.”And I remember—and this was really before even President Biden's administration making a formal announcement that they will follow the agreement, or they will commit to the deadline set with the agreement, I told my colleagues, and I told, even as I sent like a very short memo to Kabul, and I said, “I think we should prepare for a withdrawal, because I feel the withdrawals are going to take place.”

But I don't know what was happening between Kabul and Washington, because those who were sitting inside Kabul, the response I got back, they said, “Well, we had a very good conversation with the U.S. national security adviser, and he was very forthcoming.”And then I said, “How come?”And then they sent me the minutes of the conversation.And frankly speaking, when I looked at the minutes, it was a very formal diplomatic language, which is just nothing—how do I say?—nothing assurance towards not withdrawing.

So I, for me personally, I felt we already are in a flawed thinking.For me, this is how I took it.This is how I looked at it.And my worries started from then.And I have a story to share.When I was at the United Nations, Afghanistan had never—so for a lot of member states, they make gifts to the U.N., and usually, when you walk in the halls of the United Nations, you see these artifacts in the walls, on the sides, that has been gifted by member states to the United Nations.And I always walked, and I never saw anything from Afghanistan.So for me, always, it felt like we have to do something, that it is there and visible, and people will see it, especially being among the countries that we had joined the U.N. in a very initial first few years.

So I worked, and then finally, we came to an agreement with the United Nations that Afghanistan will present a gift.And we did.So my project was, I worked with young artists in Afghanistan to put that gift together.It's still hanging.It's a huge painting that's still hanging at the walls of the United Nations, that looks into—it's a picture of Afghanistan, where it's a young kid who's flying a kite.There is women with traditional clothes who are dancing.There are kids who go to school.And there is the sculpture of Buddha.

And to me, it was very significant, because this is rich history tradition all, and women in the forefront, and men as well.But when I was in the process of preparing that, and I remember that week when the artist came to New York, and we were speaking, my conversation with him.The entire time, I was emotional.And every time I would speak, I would break into tears because I was telling him, I said, “Look, I feel like what we are preparing, and by the time we hang it in the wall, this is not going to be the reality in Afghanistan, and this is going to just truly portray how we aspire to be.”

So that fear had started even before.And it's true, by the time when we hang the gift and the sculpture, the painting.And when I arrived in Washington, it didn't take too much of a time when Kabul fell.And surely, that painting is still there.And every time I stand by, it brings tears into my eyes, because that picture was what we wanted to be, right?

When you said that they were getting assurances, and they were just diplomatic, was that during the Trump administration or Biden?

Biden administration.

It was in the Biden years.

In the very initial stage of Biden administration.

Warning the U.S. Government that Kabul Could Fall

When you arrive into Washington, are you warning them about the American government, about what could happen?

Yes.When I arrived, I tell people, still, that when your credentials arrive when you can start meeting U.S. government officials.… Practically, for me, it was the DoD [Department of Defense] that I met, and I went there right away, because I wanted to speak to them, because provinces were falling, one after another.

And there was a constant calls I was receiving for more security officials, worried and concerned, and asking for help and support.So I met with the DoD officials.… It was a meeting that didn't require me much of a time to convince them what we need, because they knew exactly where we are, what are our shortcomings, what are the weaknesses and what can be done. …

So that's how I started it.And I also remember the Thursday and the Friday before the collapse, because after that, then I tried to meet whomever I could and convey that we are worried.It's a fearful stage—what can be done in Afghanistan, that we may lose it, the democratic principles, what we have achieved together, and all the things that they felt it was a success story, and we can't just let it be in between.

The Thursday and the Friday just before the fall, especially the Friday, I think, I went home at 9:00 p.m., because by then, I had exhausted every possible resource I had.And that Thursday and that Friday, I started to reach out to members of Congress, representatives of Senate and Congress.And because it was such a short time, and I could not accommodate to meet them in person, so I asked my staff, and I said, “Is it possible for me to set up phone calls with them?”And I said, “Whomever is available, and whomever was willing to take my call.”

And I think probably I spoke to more than 35, 40 members, and these were the calls that I will hang up, and then there will be a next call, and they will give it to me, and I would pick it up.And then each call, my plea was—and by then, I think things were just looking so worse and so terrible and so bad, that my biggest fear was if Kabul falls, my fear was there would be a lot of killings, looting, torture, because it was a city where everybody from other provinces had arrived to take refuge.

So every time I would, at the end of the call, I said, “Let's please make sure that Kabul does not fall, and let's please make sure that Kabul does not return to a battleground.”And at the end of each of these calls, when I was about to end, and I had lost it by then in terms of any strength that I had carried, because then I was broken by every single pieces.And I will end with tears, because I never thought this is where we will head, and we will arrive, too.

Why were you calling Congress and not the White House and not talking to the president?

So for two reasons.I think one was practical reason, because my credentials, when it had arrived, I could speak with members of the State Department, not with the White House.That was one reason.And the second, I think, because my window of work, of arriving in Washington, was such a short window that I had just got to know my counterparts, which natural counterparts are in the State Department, and in our case, it was DoD as well, just because the U.S. military footprints in Afghanistan.

And the third reason why I wanted to speak with Congress, I felt it's a democracy, right?And I felt that the representatives of people, of this country, will have a stronger voice and more strength and power to call the White House and create the—or I don't know if the right word is pressure or create or communicate the right message that needs to be communicated.So that was the main reason.

Like when I started to think, and I said, “OK, at this space that I feel like we're losing everything, what is the fast and the quickest fix that I can do?”And I stepped back and I said, “Well, they would play an important role, members of the Congress and Senate, in order to reach out to the White House.”So instead of me telling them, this will have much stronger weight coming in from them saying, “We need to stand together and make sure the country does not fall.” ...

And it wasn't all on you.Presumably the Afghan government is reaching out to the White House, in some level of panic at that point, and that message of Afghanistan is reaching.Were they paying attention to the warnings?You said that the Defense Department understood what was going on.

My understanding was yes, they understood what was going on.They understood, absolutely.Question if the capital, if Kabul was reaching out to the White House, my assumption is probably yes.I can't say it with confidence they were, because I don't know.I really don't know.My line of communication was always with my minister at the time, and then his line of communication, as I said, counterpart is usually the State Department. …

And I think, for me, also, it was a very personal experience, honestly, because as I said initially, I had experienced Afghanistan falling so many times, and Kabul falling so many times in a young age.And I always tell people my biggest nightmare was Kabul being in a vacuum of power, because I had seen Afghanistan being in that vacuum of power, and Kabul especially, because that's where I lived, being in that vacuum of power.And I always say that first 24 to 48 hours is the most challenging and risky and fearful time of our history, when falls would happen, coups will happen.

And then that 24-48 hours, first 24 and 48 hours, where looting will take place, rapes will take place, killings will take place, assassinations will take place.So I had seen that.And I think it was really part of that personal experience, as well, for me.I was just worried.I was just worried if this happens, people will just be massacred.And looting will take place.And so for me, I think it came out of that fear as well.And I think that was a major drive for it, too.

And that's what you were warning to people who would listen?

Yes, yes, I was. I was.I already said I had not pleaded any time in my life as heavy as then.

Do you think the dates certainty led to that, to the collapse, the idea that there is this—

I think it's a combination.I don't think so that it was an intention, intentionally let things fall.I feel it was such a shared investment of both the Afghan people, and U.S. and U.S. government, and Americans in general.I think it was such a shared investment of the two countries to bring Afghanistan where it was, to bringing women to the forefront, abilities to have a small sparkle of hope, of rising, potentially rising democracy.That's the question that we can go back and forth, and question that so many ways.But much better than what it is, correct?

And the relative freedom, boom in the media, I mean that for sure we can say, the rise of civil society, and a different country and a new country, a country where young women could think that there is limited barriers.I'll give you an example.Just not too long ago, a month ago, I met a very young woman who is in her 20s, Afghan woman, in the U.S.And she is right now in the U.S. on a scholarship for education.

And we talked.And for me, she was born post-9/11.So for me, it's always so interesting to speak to this generation who were born post-9/11.And I asked her, I said, “Just tell me,” because her experience is different than mine.And I said, “Tell me, what was your wish to be?What you wanted to become one day?”And she said she wanted to be a president.So to me, that dream of becoming, as a woman, a president in Afghanistan, that was part of the shared investment that had taken place in Afghanistan, between Americans and Afghans.

And it was true, and it was real.And she was just a strong example of it for me, that this is the way she was thinking.So it was just not something we imagined.It truthfully had taken place.So yes, for me, the fall of it was painful.

When you would see the president, and he said, “It's not going to be like Vietnam; it's under control; this is different,” did you know something different when you would hear the reassurances from the American government that it's all under control?

… I think, for me that day, I was in the office when the announcement took place, and my colleague came, and she said that President Biden had made the announcement that we're setting to the deadline we will withdraw, withdraw exactly on that date.And just practical example of it, right away, right away, the flights that were coming out of Afghanistan, just within less than 20 minutes, there was no more ticket available.

And again, I'm going to say this, because in our history, it was not too far, like it wasn't too, too many years in the back that we had forgotten what it meant when vacuum of power arrives.And for some, even a little bit of an older generation, people had seen that period of where Afghanistan sits in that element of possible isolation.So for a lot of people, the chaos, the chaos just kicked in.

When you talked about what would happen to women in Afghanistan and the warnings about that, did the U.S. government seem to be taking seriously the people who had worked with them, the people who had been part of the Afghan government, the people who had worked right next to them for all of those years?

True. True. It's true.I think I have to give the credit really to, among any of us, and I think with this, I will say the two sides.I think it's the part of the Afghan government and the U.S. government.I think the people that really understood well was really the American organizations, NGOs, nonprofits, veterans, and all those who had—I mean it's 20 years of shared history, shared work, shared collaboration, shared partnership.So a lot of relationship is built.And we're human being, so we definitely build up relationship.

I think they understood it much better than us, to be very honest, because among anyone who took the first step and moved forward to really rescue and help those allies were the groups that I mentioned.I think they understood, and now even, if we look into the data back, it was really the nonprofits.It was really the U.S. organizations, veterans, that they full-heartedly, with all the risks that they took, they took, and then they were the first one in the ground to evacuate Afghans.

So if I say, did we fail to read well?Probably, yes.But I think the people did not fail.I think the policymakers, we failed.We misread things.But the regular Afghans, the regular Americans, those who had invested in Afghanistan, they could see the signs even before us.And then they were more prepared to help than anyone else.And I think we were all also in a shock and a chaos of planning, and they were much prepared in their planning.

But it's amazing that it's sometimes, in some cases, people working from their kitchen tables, making phone calls, and not the United States government.

Absolutely, from both sides, honestly, from both sides.And I think when I always say it's a collective responsibility that we have not felt or, how do I say, delivered up to this responsibility collectively, I think it's a true statement, because we didn't.People from their kitchens, people from hotel rooms, people in transit.I have so many stories.People were really in transit on their vacations or anything, it was—when they heard, they were the one who started to work and help and make sure to rescue their friends, their allies, and those who they knew would be in danger.And that was unconditionally to everyone.

Kabul Falls to the Taliban

… Tell me where you are when the collapse happens, and how you hear.

So I told you the story of that Thursday and Friday.And that Friday I went home, 9:00 p.m.,and I entered the living room.My kids were asleep.And my mom already knew I’m exhausted, and I looked pale, completely.And she didn't even ask me much.She said, “Go take a rest.”And I went to my bedroom, but I think sleep is gone.By then, there's nothing that's called a sleep or rest.

And it's my—my fear had plugged in from Thursday more seriously, because on Thursday, I had a scheduled interview with the BBC, and then at the time, they wanted to do an interview.They were profiling Afghan younger generations.And as part of the profiling, they wanted to profile me and my husband.So they came to me, and they wanted to—basically, the storyline was how much Afghanistan has changed, and then the reporter who was doing the work, she knew me from a very young age when I was in the U.S. studying, and then I first went to Afghanistan.So this generation she had witnessed and watched, they grew, and a change had happened in Afghanistan.So she wanted to portray that story.

So she came to Washington, and this was a set interview.I had given her a couple of hours of slot that Thursday, and it was set like a month or two in advance.But by the time that day, that Thursday she came, it was a morning.And I know her from so many years, and as soon as she entered my office, I closed the door.I couldn't do the interview.I cried the entire time to her, because for me, I told her, I said, “Look, by the time this story you are doing, it's not going to be relevant, because when you air the story, we have lost it.I don't think your story makes any difference to say how much Afghanistan has changed, because by the time we would go back to where we were.”And conveying that to her, and actually acknowledging it to myself, it was heartbreaking.

So for me, it started from that.And then the follow that Sunday morning, I think it was around 6:00 in the morning, I woke up, because as I said, the sleep was gone.And I looked at my phone, I picked up my phone, and I saw so many messages had arrived.And then I was already fearful, because my family was back in Afghanistan—my husband, my brothers.And I picked up my phone, and I saw that so many text messages.The first thing I did, I did not even open the text messages, because I knew something bad has happened.I called my husband, and he picked up the phone, and the first thing he says to me on the line, he says, “I'm fine.Don't worry.”So as soon as he said, I knew things are not fine.So I said, “What happened?”

So I say, from that moment onward, I started to live my nightmare.My entire nightmare of youth years where Taliban coming back to Afghanistan, and me being running away and escaping from them.This was like an actual nightmare I always had.And this was like living it.It just happened.They are in town, and this is what it is.So I tell the story that my first reaction after I spoke with my husband, I called my brother, because he was at home, and I told him, “Where are you?”And he said, “I am at home.”I said, “You have to pack and leave.”I did not say pack.I said, “You have to leave right now, your home.”And he's a younger guy, and he's like, “Look, I need to pack.I don't have time.”And I said, “You don't have time.You can't just tell me like, 'I need one hour or so.'You need to leave at this moment.”

So he still takes his time.He still goes ahead, and he, I think, his time is like really packing a backpack, nothing much, and he leaves the house.And I tell people the two times that I broke down that day, one was that moment that he left the house, and I told him, “Go to the airport.”So he's on his way to the airport, and within, like, five or 10 minutes, I get a call back, and it's the guards in the house who tells me that Taliban have raided the house.So I think that moment I broke.Because I always tell the story that, when you live in Kabul, and when I left, and it was a city that was in constant attacks, and then I always had the fear that one day our home would be attacked, too, with the suicide bombers.So you have in mind that if that moment arrives, we, my husband and I, we all had this plan of like, which is the escape way?And how do I pick up my kid?Where do I run?How do I hide?What do I do?So this preparation is in your head.You always are prepared for that "boom" taking place, and then you running, and—you know the drill.This is what it is.

So you are prepared for that worst-case scenario of when Taliban arrives at your home.But when that moment really arrived, it's different.So I think that moment, I burst into tears.I literally burst into tears.And the second time that day was when my brother arrived to the Kabul Airport, and he arrives; he calls me, and he says, “It's very crowded.I can't enter the airport.”And in my head, when the crowd means, well, the entrance gates has 20 to 50 people by the gate.He can't really mitigate it; he can't get in.And he's a pretty shy guy, too, so I said, “It's him.He can just get in.”

So I'm saying, “Well, you can just squeeze in, and you go.”And then he says, “No, it's very much crowded.”And then he's like, “By the way, but here people says we're going to”—and I don't remember if he said Abbey Gate or East Gate or West Gate.It's some—one of these gates, he named it.And for me, I always knew one gate, and that's the main entrance of Kabul Airport entrance.So I said, “Which gate is this?”And he was like, “I don't know.People are saying, and then they're going towards that gate, and I'm walking.”

And in my head, I'm still thinking, it's 20 people, like suddenly they cannot enter.They say, “Oh, there is another gate.Let's walk to that gate.”So I'm trying to test the accuracy of information.And I said, “OK, who are these people?How many people?Are there like 20? Fifty?”And he was like, “No, no, no, no, not 20 or 50.It's in thousands.”And as soon as he said, “It's in thousands,” and that's where I cried out loud, cried out loud.I felt like my neighbors heard me, because to me, my entire life, until that moment, my efforts was, especially after college and after graduation, you feel like, I'm working hard, and I'm really making sure that this moment doesn't come, and that moment of chaos does not arrive.

And when he told me, I cried not for him; I cried for all those thousands of people that were lost and did not know which gate to go.And that moment, I felt like I failed.I failed.I failed on anything I had done until that day, that moment, that second, because that's exactly what I didn't want to see or experience, or Afghans experience, again, watching it again.I felt, it happened, and I couldn't do anything.And I did not do anything.And what was all that I tried, I was doing something right.

So I think that moment of personal failure was so heavy that for six months I couldn't get out of bed.And I felt I did not know my sense of direction what to do next, because until that moment, you feel you know what to do, and these are the right paths to take.But then you say, like, I think I did that, and if that didn't result to the success in preventing what was my biggest nightmare in life, then what?And after six months, I had to pick up myself back and then really be pragmatic about it.

And that's the feeling of abandonment that you were talking about before?Is it betrayal, too?

I think—I think it was more of, I felt I betrayed Afghans.It was like I raised wrong hopes.As the first woman in so many of these positions, when you arrive, as a younger generation, and I strongly believed in education, for instance, and from my family, I'm the first one, as a woman, who has done university degree or went abroad to go for school, and I always felt I'm putting this example for the rest.And I was truly encouraging all of the women in the family, the younger ones, that you have to study.You have to study hard; you have to be committed.

I also felt like I betrayed and failed all those young women that I encouraged them to stay inside Afghanistan.That's the biggest thing that I still cannot process, because everybody who would ask me at the time, “OK, what do you think,” and especially people will go for higher education outside of Afghanistan, I would be telling them, “Come back.We should be the one to fix the country.We should be the one to fix the country.”And I felt like, what are they thinking at that moment, at that moment of being trapped and not able to rescue themselves from the danger, possibly physical danger, and then I think the danger of losing their life in terms of opportunities?Because everybody knew that is the end of what a woman could wish and dream, and beyond that day, that wish and dream will die.

But the U.S. had been making that promise from the very beginning, too, about democracy, about the way that they were helping to lead the country, and here they are, leaving.What was your feeling towards America?

Look, if I personally did not know America, if I did not study in this country, if I had not spent six years of my life in this country, I probably would have been thinking exactly as you said, correct?And I think, for me, I knew U.S. much, much better and bigger than that, because for me, personally, what I had achieved in my life, it was part of that partnership, that shared partnership and that shared collaboration and that shared investment that had taken place post-9/11 in Afghanistan.And I always say, look, I would have not been able where I am or I was before, post-Taliban, if it was not to the U.S. coming in, because I probably would have been now and not educated and just being a housewife back at home.

But it's not my story, the story of so many of the younger generation that had changed.So I think, for me, the processing it was different, but I can't speak for those who are right now in Afghanistan and how do they take this, correct?I think one thing that I did start to question myself, personally, was because when I was at the United Nations, I was such a vocal advocate for women's rights.I spoke about the principles of democracy, and I'm still—like it's such an odd thing that, despite all this, I'm one of those people that still believes in democracy.I say if Afghans are given one more chance to choose, we will go for democracy, and definitely a liberal democracy, because I just know who we are.

Even with that, I think the part that I started to question and think were, can I ever speak again about protection of women's rights?Because I personally thought I had lost the—how do I say?—I had lost the ground to speak about it.I lost the right to talk about it, because if I was speaking before, I was speaking from a space that I knew things were changing.But now—at the time—I mean, now, I still speak about it, but at the time, I felt I didn't have the right to talk about anymore about women's rights, and especially in a multilateral platform.Like I said, how you can fix it?

I think when time passed, and I think when you were—time heals so many things, and it heals wound in the heart, too.I think I'm trying, and I've built my strength again to move forward.And still, if it's a very small space that I can talk about, rights of Afghan women, I do want to speak.And not rights of only Afghan women—I think the principles of freedom, independence, democracy and women's rights, because I feel, in moments like this, we arrive, and we try to question things.But it's not really the essence of, that the system failed us.It's really the essence of that the policymakers and Afghan policymakers as well, as I said initially, made the wrong decisions and the wrong choices and really failed all of us.

And the images you mentioned, of the cargo planes taking off, what do you see when you see that image, and what does it tell you about that moment?

I think it tells me exactly what I thought: chaos, pain, fear, right?And in that, we were right to tell everyone that this is what's going to happen.

What happened to your family?You talked about your brother.

Yes. So luckily, he was able to leave, evacuate, within the four days.Same thing with my husband, so with my immediate family.My extended family is still back.That means my aunts, uncles, cousins, they're all back in Afghanistan.And I'm not able to—I'm able, but I personally haven't been able to build the strength to speak with the younger kids in the family, especially women, because I encouraged them to go to school, and now they can't, and I don't know what to tell them.

Women in Afghanistan Under Taliban Rule

What happens after those images that we see, the plane?What happens to the women who are in Afghanistan, to the people you've known your whole life?What happens?

Yes. I think the right-away reaction is that everybody reaches out to you when they want you to help them and rescue them and help them to leave the country.And I think that's even harder, because as a human, I had limited—I mean, I had no resources.I had limited contacts.Or I had contacts, and I tried to reach out to as many people as I could and tried to help.

But the difficult part is that the number is still so massive, so massive, that you cannot help everybody.And that becomes even more difficult, because you just know you cannot help them.And you don't know how to tell them that.And that story continues until today.There are women who have been arrested.There are women who have been threatened.There are women who are forced to get married, younger girls.And there are girls who wants to get educated and get scholarships and go outside.And how can you help?You can help a very limited number, because it's almost, you cannot evacuate the entire country.That's what I always say.And the country wants to live in peace and stability and peace of mind and prosperity.And that image we do not see at this moment.So naturally, everybody wants to leave, and you cannot pull all of them.And where do you put that limit?And it's really, really hard.I have difficult moments to make that decision in a sense.Where is that number?Where do you say, this is the right number, and beyond this now we have helped all those who needed help, and now the rest will be fine?Because you can't. …

What happens to you as the ambassador to the United States as the government falls, and you have an embassy and a title, but not a government.

Yes, I have an embassy, absolutely.I have an embassy.I have a title.I have staff, colleagues.And they have their families.There is one, this bigger responsibility as the ambassador, and then as part of representing your country, and that's Afghanistan.And then at the same time, you are a boss and a supervisor to your colleagues who have their own families, and how do you really put all this together?

And I think that's where now I feel that word “resilience” does resonate with Afghans, because I think it comes out of no choice. …

So on that Monday, I went to office, because it was important for me that, above all, I have staff, too, and I am responsible towards them.I have to give them, at least, if I am lost in the sense of direction, they at least should get some sense of direction.And we met that Monday, and I talked to my colleagues, and I said, “We need to identify our priorities,” because it was very clear, by then, we knew we have no government.And then the whole essence of our presence in Washington, as an embassy, started to become a great question of yes, we are representing the Afghan people, but which government?And we're representing the former government, and that government does not exist.So this whole question.

So I think we, at that morning, when we sat, we made a couple of decisions.One, it was we will stay at the embassy as long as possible, and we will make sure to have our tricolor flag flying at the hall of the embassy, because that's very significant to us.Second, and we made a decision that we are by no means representing the Taliban regime.And that was a collective decision we all made.And third, it was, OK, at this moment, what we can do?And I think in that part, we made two decisions.One, it was that we will try to help in the evacuation as much as possible; and second, for those who are coming in, we're going to try to—because our consulates were functioning, and we were going to try to expedite and work even harder in the paperwork of those immigrants who are arriving, because they need certification, vetting process and all that.So we are going to help them with that process as part of the consulate work.

And then, for me personally, one other goal was that I wanted to really reach out, because it was a moment of pain and loss for so many of us.And when I say us, I think it was not only Afghans; it was also the American people as well, because you all had invested for 20 years in that country, and just seeing it, the images I saw, and everybody else saw, it was heartbreaking.And the entire question, what was the purpose of us being in Afghanistan for that long?And it meant it was really important to me that they reach out to all those, and especially the veterans, to tell them that you have not lost it fully.You have made so much difference in that part of the country and that part of life, and especially with the younger generation.And then, in this moment of pause, we are together.

So that was my personal goal.And I tried.I tried, as much as I could, at the embassy, making not big noise about it, I tried to reach out as much as possible.And we continued.We moved on with broken heart, but we put together a framework for us on how to function and how to work, and we continued that for six months.

And then you had to close it.

And then we had to close the embassy.And that was a difficult decision, because none of us wanted to, in a way.It was very much emotional for us.It was very much important for us.But then you hit a wall.There were two options: either me staying as the ambassador and my staff being terminated, their status as the diplomats—basically one option.There was no two options.That was the option suggested to me; that I stay as the ambassador, and then my staff’s status will be terminated as diplomats, and I can continue to perform from my home.

And keep in mind that the Afghan ambassador does not have a residence.Our formal residence is the embassy.And I financially could not afford to be in an ambassador's residence.I knew I was just going to move to a smaller space.And for me, one was the ambassadorship.I think there was another part of my work always that I carried was as a supervisor and as a boss to my team, to my staff.And I felt it would have been unfair to them, that I let them basically—like a sinking boat—I let them sink, and I stay.Part of the survival one.

So for me, it was a tough choice.But I had to, as solidarity with them, I said, “If your status is going to be terminated, effective that day I will step down with you.”And I did.

Did the American presence in Afghanistan have to end that way?Did it have to end with those images that we see, with the Taliban?

No, no, no.I think that's a no, that everybody knows that that's a no.And I don't think it has ended, frankly speaking.I constantly say this is a moment of pause, because I just know ourselves, and I know the American people.And I think the ties between the two countries and between the two people is pretty heavy and long and more prosperous and much pleasant in so many ways.And we see the results of it even now, despite everything, I think, where you have seen the amount of support that had Afghan refugees and certain states, and just they have received from American people.They have opened up their homes.They have opened up their—given them resources.They have been very much welcoming.So it's a significant element of telling us that this is not—it's not ended.I say it's a pause; it will come back to a space where we will feel comfortable.And I don't think … just simply those images of Kabul Airport signifies the relationship between two nations.Not at all.And I think we will overcome this.

Because there's reports that even that President Biden, as he's considering what he's going to do, comes to a conclusion that at least that government, but maybe even when he was back in the Obama years, that democracy wasn't going to be possible; that they weren't capable; that your country wasn't capable of what the U.S. was trying to do.

I think the argument—and I have also heard the argument saying, which it hurts a lot, and luckily I wrote about it, so it's going to be published soon—that it says Afghan people have rejected democracy.I think it's such a false argument.We did not, by every means.If we look into the figures, when the first presidential election took place until the last presidential election took place, the number of people who participated in voting that year, compared to the recent one, the first one was much larger than the last.And it was not just because if the Afghans wanted to reject, they would have rejected it the first time.They did not.I think it was a lack of trust and confidence in the system that was built.

So it was a political failure.It was not just because we did not like democracy, and we rejected it.It was the type of structure built, and the institution built that were not capable to protect what was constituted through the constitution.So as I said earlier, even if today Afghans are given the choice to choose between any form of government, I think our selection will be still democracy, and a liberal form of democracy.

So no.And that thinking of Afghan being—and I think it's such an orientalist thinking, and I'm completely not buying it, because we always look into Afghanistan from the eyes of the '80s.We have such a fascination with that type of Afghanistan, and we just think Afghans are way too traditional to be governed in so many ways, the defeat of the great powers and all of those stories, which is true, but every society evolves.If you look at human civilization, societies evolve, and we have evolved.As I said, it's a country where two majorities, which are younger generation, below the age of 30—70% of the population are below the age of 30—and about half of the population are women.And the last 20 years, these were the two that had made tremendous progress than anyone else.So I have a strong argument what is installed right now, it will not be sustainable.This will fall as well.

Latest Interviews

Get our Newsletter

Stay Connected

Jon and Jo Ann Hagler on behalf of the Jon L. Hagler Foundation

Koo and Patricia Yuen

Funding for FRONTLINE is provided through the support of PBS viewers and by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Additional funding is provided by the Abrams Foundation; Park Foundation; the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation; and the FRONTLINE Journalism Fund with major support from Jon and Jo Ann Hagler on behalf of the Jon L. Hagler Foundation, and additional support from Koo and Patricia Yuen. FRONTLINE is a registered trademark of WGBH Educational Foundation. Web Site Copyright ©1995-2025 WGBH Educational Foundation. PBS is a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization.