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Ashley Etienne

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Ashley Etienne

Harris Adviser

Ashley Etienne served as communications director for Vice President Kamala Harris. Etienne has also served as a senior adviser to Presidents Barack Obama and Joe Biden, and Speaker Nancy Pelosi. She is also a political contributor to CBS News.

The following interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on August 7, 2024. It has been edited for clarity and length.

This interview appears in:

The Choice 2024

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Meeting Kamala Harris

I want to talk about your experience with Kamala Harris, but let me start before that, which is, what is the first moment she comes across your radar as a politician?

Oh, that's so interesting.That's an interesting question.I was working in the Obama White House at the time, and I got a call from one of her longtime advisers, asking me if I wanted to interview to be her communications director.And so I did the interview, and I met with her then former campaign manager, and he and I sat across from each other, and I was sort of running down what I thought my—what I thought would be a good strategy for her, in terms of communications.And my point I was making is she needs to slow build.She needs to create a solid foundation and infrastructure, introduce herself, reframe some of her—what would go on to be some of her negatives in the primary race, being a former prosecutor, all of those different things, and give her a sense to learn the Senate before jumping out there and announcing that she wanted to run for president.

And they thought differently.And they wanted to go a different path, which I don't know how to say this, but I just thought it was not a smart strategy.They wanted to go big and not build a foundation.But I could see, having done one White House by that point, worked for Speaker Pelosi, like I understood that she needed a little more time to develop, develop her own sense of herself, her sense of herself in that body of the Senate, get an understanding of how it worked, how the people there worked, and where she sort of fit in the political arena and then how to distinguish herself.

But they wanted to go big, fast, early, and they did it.And it kind of crashed and burned.

Yeah.So we'll talk about that. ...

That's not the first time. I'm sorry.The very first time is when she ran for the DA in San Francisco.I was working at a PR firm, and we did pro bono work for her to build her national profile.And I was obviously smitten with her and super excited.Here was this beautiful African American woman who was brilliant, who was breaking glass ceilings, and who people thought had a really big future.So to be one of the first people to help message her and present her on the national stage was very exciting.

And then, the second time is when she was in the Senate, and I interviewed for the job of her communications director and didn't get that job.The third time is when I got a phone call from her, and she offered me the job, and I accepted.So she's been hovering around for years.

Harris and San Francisco Politics

But you even knew her when she was in, or knew about her when she was in San Francisco, running for DA, because one of the things we're trying to figure out, is who is she as a politician.And who is she as a politician back at that time?

I don't think she's changed much.I think she's just become more self-assured, more fortified in who she actually is, and you can see that today, and it's quite incredible to see.But what I have come to learn about the vice president is that her ethos is that she sees people.She grew up in a multicultural, multiethnic neighborhood.Her first memories were in a stroller, marching for freedom, rights and justice for all people, and that sort of set the stage for her understanding of the world.It provided her a sort of a firsthand view into the concerns, circumstances and the plight of a lot of different people, and I think that developed in her the ability to really see people in a way that I don't think the average politician does.

And so she developed a real heart and a passion for people in justice, I mean, those first days in the stroller.And that has been, I think, the thread throughout every stage of her political career.You could see, when she was the attorney general, with programs like Back on Track.That was a public-private partnership to reduce recidivism.I mean, that's when you see people.You don't just lock them up and throw away the key, but you provide them opportunities to flourish in life after they get out.

And that's what she did.And it was a lot of innovative initiatives that she pursued at each of those steps that really centered on people's concerns and enabling people to really achieve their best possibilities in their life.

Harris’ Background as a Prosecutor

What does it mean that she came out from being a prosecutor, because I don't know how many politicians come from that background, and certainly from local prosecutor to attorney general.How does that shape her and make her different from other politicians?

Well, if you know the story about how she decided to pursue her career as a prosecutor, I think that gives you a sense of who she is, and it gets back to the ethos.So if you don't mind, I could tell you a little bit of the story.

Yeah.

The story goes, she was living in Canada at the time with her mother, her sister, and she had a best friend who was being violated in her own home, and she expressed concerns to Kamala Harris at the time, as you can imagine, completely distraught, trying to find a way out of her situation, and the system was failing her.So Kamala Harris said, “You should come and live with us.”So the friend moved in with Kamala Harris and their family as a refuge to get away from the situation she was in.

And at that moment is when I think she realized that her purpose would be to save people like her friend; to go into the system, to change the system, to see people like her friend, to not fail people like her friend.And I think that is what led her to becoming a prosecutor, and I think, at one time, she was—obviously, she was criticized for being a prosecutor.And I think what people failed to realize is that in order to make change, you have to have change being worked from the inside of the system and on the outside.And ideally, the inside-outside strategy works together to really effectuate change.

And so I admired the fact that she decided she was going to go into the system and help transform the system so that it wouldn't fail people like her friend again.And so that was the beginning of, I think, her awareness of people, and commitment to addressing their needs and concerns.And she's always been an admirer of, … one of her mentors—or he wouldn't be a mentor—one of her idols was Thurgood Marshall, so she wanted to pursue the legal field.And I think she felt like the best way I can help people like my friend and others is to get into the system and help change the system.

Yeah, it's so interesting, because as you said, people would question it.And she says her mom questioned it, and that she had to defend her decision.

But I don't ever think that the vice president had the idea of becoming a politician, right?Most politicians want to be a politician.I think she literally wanted to be a lawyer and a prosecutor to help change the system, and then I think that became a budding political career, but I don't get the sense from her that like, she woke up and decided, “I want to be a politician; I'm going to go into law as my pathway to get there.”So I think she was very genuine in a commitment to the law, understanding that we are a nation of laws, and if you understand anything about freedom, liberty and justice, it all begins and ends with the letter of the law.So that's why she pursued a legal career and became a prosecutor as well.

Hard to Place Harris on an Ideological Spectrum

Let me ask you one other thing about her, because a lot of people tried to look back at her experience as a prosecutor, and they try to say, “Was she progressive?Was she hard on crime?”And in fact, she writes a book called <i>Smart on Crime</i>, where she sort of tries to reject some of those things.Why is it so hard for people to place her on an ideological spectrum when they look back at her early years?

I think it's the context and the environment in which her being a prosecutor was discussed.I don't think it was always considered a negative thing.I think around the death of George Floyd, and the uprising around that, I think being a prosecutor took on a different meaning and a different definition.And they were easily vilified, but I don't think that was always the case.

And even, you know, it's a funny story, when we were in the White House, some attorney general—I can't remember of what state—implemented an initiative that she had done when she was the attorney general, and we just laughed.And like, it was considered not progressive, but innovative.And she was like, “Oh wow.It's interesting; now it's innovative.When I was doing it, it was considered progressive.”So she was always very forward in her approach to solving crime—I mean, not solving crimes, but addressing the issue of crime and then providing a safety net for people to get back on their feet and thrive.But I don't think it was always a negative thing.I just think it's sort of the definition changed and turned right around the time of George Floyd.

I guess one thing I'm wondering is, whether—

And it was hard to message against it.You know, it was just an environment that did not enable for a rational conversation about what prosecutors did, have done and how they have not only reduced crime but helped people get back on their feet.So it was a tough time.And I think there's a tendency to retreat, and I think she actually retreated rather than finding ways to talk about why it was important that she was a prosecutor.Why do we need prosecutors?Because you don't want rapists on the street.You don't want crime and people feeling like they're under siege in their own communities where they've been living for generations.It was hard to message that in that current—in that environment, in that context of that environment.

But I think now, obviously, it's working to her advantage.All of her negatives when she was running her primary race are now all of her advantages: her gender, her race, her being a former prosecutor.It's really an object lesson in timing.It's kind of incredible, in fact.

Harris in the U.S. Senate

It is.It does feel like moments, and the moments where she is matter.And so let's go to the next one I was wondering about, which is when she arrives in the Senate, or when she's elected to the Senate, which is the same 2016, the same election that Donald Trump defeats Hillary Clinton at.How important do you think it was that that was the context for her arriving into the United States Senate?

Well, it was important for Democrats at the time, because it did give us a sense of not all was lost, that there was some hope.And then you had this incredibly brilliant woman that had won, that had made history as the first Black female senator from California.And so that was encouraging and provided the party some level of hope.

I think it also gave her a sense of purpose in a way that had Hillary not won [sic], I don't know would have existed.But I think it gave her a different sense of purpose, that this fight continues.“I'm a part of this fight now, and I've got something of value to add to this conversation, to add to the party, and to add to the nation.”

And it also feels like, as far as talking about the moments, she has that background.She has the background as a prosecutor, and I think the way that a lot of Americans first see her is, she's on the dais, asking questions of nominees.Can you help me understand that moment and her political star rising in that context?

Yeah. I mean, that was a pivotal moment, her questioning Kavanaugh, the former attorney general at the time Jeff Sessions.That's when she really came onto the scene and made clear to the world that she was a force, and a force to be reckoned with, and that she was the future of the party.Whether or not she was going to be the future president, that wasn't clear, but people rallied around her, became enthusiastic about her.Obviously her star had risen at that point, and it really sort of set the stage for her future run, obviously.

People have told us that if you watch those hearings, the newer senators, her, Sen. Booker, are on one end of the dais, and they're asking the questions last, but a lot of people are waiting to get down to that end.I know you were on the House side at that time, but was there a feeling that she represented a new generation or a new change in that Trump era?

Well, what was clear is that—and this is what I know to be true about the vice president—she suffers no fools.And so to see her wearing out those witnesses, stone-faced, no blinking, no pausing, totally convicted, was, as a woman of color and as someone who's sat through a lot of hearings, it was energizing.It was encouraging.It was—it really, again, reinforced the notion that she had a future in the party and she was not going to be overlooked.She really hit sort of cult status at that point, and she just took off.I mean, I even bought my daughter a Kamala T-shirt at that point, right?

And so yeah, again, I think what made her stand out in those moments was not just her ability to ask a tough question and remain very steadfast in asking it, but it was really her smarts, her ability to box in her opponents in a way that most people don't really do during hearings.

And it was also clear that she was not trying to do it—she wasn't playing to the cameras.That was who she was, and it felt very genuine in a way that most of these members, when they're in these hearings, everyone's playing to the camera, trying to get on the news that night, right, and everyone's puffed up.But she was literally herself, and that came through.And I think that's what folks admired most about it—smart, brilliant, tough, suffers no fools.

… What are the challenges she would face as a woman in the Senate?

Oh. Obviously, it's there's very few women in the Senate compared to the House, so it's, for lack of a better way of describing it, it's a good-old-boys' club.It can be less friendly and welcoming to women, which is why the women have really formed their own cohort and supported each other.But also—and we could talk this, I think, more about it in the first year than in the Senate, because I think the first year in the White House was harder probably than being in the Senate. I think she had a very low profile, almost intentionally, in the Senate, and until those moments where she sort of had those breakout moments at the hearing.And so in those quiet moments, you can imagine she's dealing with, as a double minority, all of the challenges.And this is a conversation we've not had as a nation, of what it's like as a woman, and a woman of color, to try to build power, to obtain power, and then how to leverage that power, especially in an environment where women aren't always welcomed, and there's very few people of color.

So I can imagine that it was really tough and hard for her.But again, she had this group of women that I think embraced her very well, and that sort of helped her get—understand the ropes of the body.But what I learned from her campaign team is the focus was never on the Senate.The focus was always on running.So I don't know that she really spent much time in the Senate having to deal with too many of those issues, because the focus was on running.

Considering a Run for President

Do you think she was thinking about running from the very beginning?

That was the sense I got from her team when I met with them.My thoughts on the strategy was to do a slow build, to build the infrastructure, get her legs underneath her, get her very firm and confident in who she was in her vision for the nation, and really a narrative about her.But it was clear when I met with her team then that they had their eyes very set on the White House even then.In fact, there were rumors around town that her team was meeting in private, small meetings with strategists, donors and folks within the Beltway, and they were mentioning that.They were thinking through the strategy of her running for president.In fact, they were going to be micro-targeting while she was in the Senate, the 16-to 18-year-olds, because by that point, by the time she decided to run, they would be of age to vote. …

Do you think that was coming from her?

I don't believe it was coming from her.I think—I mean, I don't know if I should say this or how to say this, but I think, from the moment that I became aware of her, people kind of, very similar to Barack Obama, were imposing this idea of her running for higher office onto her.And I think I got the sense even then, when she was DA, that she wanted to keep laser-focused on the job in front of her, that she wasn't planning for tomorrow.She even says, like, she never had a five-year plan, and none of this was actually in it.But since day one, I think people have been imposing this notion on her that, “You can be bigger than you are, and you can be the president of the United States.”

I don't know that that was generated from her.That wasn't the sense that I got.But, I mean, obviously, she's come into her own and is fully ready and prepared to take that role, and it's clear that she is the right leader for this moment.

The 2019 Presidential Campaign

… So what did you see, as you watched her make that announcement?What are you thinking?

Oh, running for president?

Yes, in 2019.What are you seeing as you watch that?

I thought the strategy was interesting.Yeah.That's—that was really my—I just thought, I was just like, wow, this is interesting.I was right, obviously, that that's what their aim was.But I just felt like my—I don't want to say “my,” but I just felt like the timing wasn't right.It just didn't feel like the timing was right.I was happy and encouraged and excited, definitely, for a Black woman to throw her hat in the ring, especially one as talented and as brilliant as she.But it just, to me, at the time did not feel like it was the right time.

What went wrong for her?Why wasn't it the right time?What was the problem in that campaign that maybe it is this year, but it wasn't then?

I don't want to really be honest about this.I don't know how to not be honest, though.I just—say again?

I mean, you can not answer it.You don't have to tell us something that's not true.

Yeah, right.No, I would never tell you anything that was not true.So tell me the question again.

The question is, what went wrong that year?Why wasn't 2019 the year?Because she starts off with a bang in her announcement and the first debate, but she's out by the end of the year.

There's a lot of articles that are written about what went wrong, and I don't think they're off.I just—I will say this.I thought that the smarter strategy would have been to invest time in building her infrastructure, and what I mean by infrastructure is a base level of support.You know, if you compare to Barack Obama, for example, spent two years on a tour on his biography, going all over the country, talking about himself before he decided to run, building that infrastructure.And I just felt like—it just felt like it was a little too soon, that maybe she needed to do more building, and in addition to that, answer a lot of the questions, spend the time to answer a lot of the questions that she did receive, that she—that they didn't have answers for, like the prosecutor.How do you describe, characterize, talk about that in a way that has resonance with a broad swath of the American public?How do you talk about your time in the Senate beyond just a hearing?

So I felt like I had wished that she had had more time, but I understood that she probably didn't have a lot of time to waste or wait.And I do appreciate women who say, “I'm not waiting.I'm going now.”So hopefully that answers the question.

Do you think it was a learning experience?

Absolutely.I definitely think it was a learning experience.Everything is a learning experience if you're smart and you're wise.But I think, when I met with her during my interview, it was clear to me that she had learned some lessons from that race, that she understood some of the mistakes that were made, that she understood that she needed to be more intentional about defining herself, understanding her place in the political arena, understanding how to talk about who she is, what is her ethos?Why does it matter to the American people that I see people?Again, how do I describe my previous work in a way that doesn't offend, but opens the door to more support, if that makes sense?

Harris Chosen as Vice President

So I want to go to that moment.Before I do that, why is she chosen to be the vice presidential nominee of the Democratic Party by Joe Biden?

I think she's chosen because she's smart, she's brilliant, she's practical, a very pragmatic leader.She's worked at every level of government.She, again, was very pragmatic in terms of the programs that she initiated and instituted from the Back on Track program as attorney general.She championed climate initiatives.But more importantly, what I thought was probably the most convincing of the reasons to have her on the ticket is she went after the banks.She took a great risk going after the banks on behalf of the people of California and brought along a few other attorney generals [sic] with her to go after the banks for mortgage fraud, essentially, and won.I mean, it was pretty incredibly impressive.

So I didn't feel like she was just—like I felt like she was the people's prosecutor, you know, that it wasn't just, “I'm out here prosecuting criminals but I'm also prosecuting big, big banks on your behalf.”And I think that's what made her incredibly appealing.But then there was also a push to put a woman on the ticket, and then there was a group of Black women that organized and started to push the effort, or the initiative, to put a Black woman on the ticket.And I think that forced Biden's hand to be modern, right, to like, arrive in the 21st century—there's been women that have run other countries, right—and to do the right thing, and to recognize that we were ready, that women were ready to take on these big roles, and ready to take on the vice presidency and then the presidency.

So I think those were the reasons why she was selected.And then she also had a great appeal with young voters, voters of color.She brought in progressive voters.So she really had great, broad appeal.

… So tell me about getting the call and being brought onto that team.

Yeah. So it was kind of crazy.It was 8:30 in the morning, and I was on a long walk, and one of my mentors, who was an adviser to the vice president, calls me and says, “The vice president is going to call you.”And I'm like, “For what?For what?”But I knew why.And so she was like, “Just get yourself prepared.You’ve got 30 minutes.”So I quickly tried to figure out, in my mind, well, what would I say?What would my advice for her be?I was not interested in going back into the White House, because I had already done a tour of duty with Obama, and I had just served as Pelosi's communications director for the four years of Trump, and ran the impeachment war room, so I was completely exhausted.I didn't think I had really, any gas in the tank.

But I felt like I knew, more than anyone else in the town, what she was going to be dealing with, having worked for the first Black president and the first woman speaker.I felt like I am sort of the most equipped person to help her navigate through this storm she's about to experience.

And so she calls me, and we get on the phone.And almost immediately, I realized that her personal persona did not align with her public persona; that she was much cooler, much more human and much more real in that conversation than I ever saw her on the campaign trail or even during those hearings.I think, even at that time, on our call, she may have quoted a rap song.It was actually kind of incredible.

But I remember saying to myself, “Oh, wow.This woman is phenomenal in ways that people don't even know.”I'm like, “I've got to bring that out of her.We've got to present that Kamala Harris I was on the phone with to the nation.”And what's so encouraging and exciting about today is that person who I talked to on the phone is now on stage in ways that makes very clear that she's fortified in who she is.She understands her strengths and her value, that she understands her why, why she's in this business, and that she's very clear-eyed about the vision for the nation and how she can get us there.And that was the Kamala Harris I met in that private conversation.

And I felt like, at that time, I'm like, OK, so somehow, someone's been doing her a disservice, because if she's this cool and relatable and awesome in private, why is that not translating to her public persona?So that was sort of our first task.So in our first conversation, we talked about the fact that people don't know who she is.They didn't learn who she was, that she was characterized, or she became a caricature, right, and she was fighting against those narratives about her from her being a former prosecutor to her having sort of scant experience in the Senate and legislative experience.So that was our first conversation, when she was just asking me, like, “What do you think my challenges are, and how do you think I can solve them?”

And my point to her was, “We need to position you as an equal governing partner to Biden.But carve out your own lane for yourself that will create value for the president, but start to help you build your own infrastructure for what might be next for you.”So that was our first conversation.I'm actually getting chills about it.

Harris Doesn’t Like to Talk About Herself

… She's written about her discomfort with talking about her personal life, with sort of blowing her own horn.What is that about her?

Well, I think it's her background as a lawyer and as a prosecutor.Lawyers are the hardest people to make messaging people.They're the hardest, because they're very accustomed to being in the courtroom, making an argument.And if you think about the job of the attorney general, it's really kind of two-dimensional.It's fight crime, get crime off the streets, and then prevent it from happening again, right?It's just really two-dimensional.

And so most—I think what reporters did not, and people did not have an appreciation for, is that those skill sets don't translate to being the vice president.Even what you saw in those hearings, that doesn't translate to being the vice president.So she had to learn really new skills and new skill sets.She had to understand why people were so curious about her.Usually when you're—I mean, think about what you know about your attorney general.It's not their worldview and their vision and how does it connect to your upbringing and how did that inform your view of the world and why you want to be the senator-turned vice president-turned-president of the United States?You're not having those conversations with yourself.You're not building that out with your team.

And I think it's also partly because she's not one of those kind of political animals.And I actually think that's what I appreciate most about her, is she's not one of those people that arrived at Washington fully baked, fully formed, here's my ideas.Rather, she has really allowed the American people and the experience that they're going through, and our nation is going through, to inform her thinking about what value she brings, who she is, how to connect her background and her upbringing to why she is the right leader for this moment in time.

Early Challenges as Vice President

… Yeah, because this is something that I had been wondering about, because I’ve read interviews with her, where she talks about the appeal of being a prosecutor and the fact that, even as a low-level prosecutor—

It's not about you, yeah.

—you can make decisions.You can decide liberty or how you're going to charge somebody.And she said, “My words move markets.”And there was a power in those positions.And then—but the vice presidency is very, very different.So was that an adjustment for her?

Absolutely.I think if you're smart and you're wise and you're really committed to doing an exceptional job, it's definitely an adjustment.It's an adjustment for everyone who walks through those wrought-iron gates, though just the burden of leading your nation, competing in the world, remaining No. 1, solving problems from the past while at the same time planning for the future, it is an incredible burden to carry.

I've interviewed with Microsoft and corporations.I'm like, if Microsoft fails, someone will fill the void.Your country cannot fail.When we walked through those gates in the middle of COVID, an unprecedented challenge before us, and that burden was overwhelming and very heavy.So absolutely, she learned a lot and grew and adjusted in those moments.

And I think it all prepared her, obviously, for where she is now.And the reason why is because she was in those presidential daily briefings with Biden every day, understanding the world around us, how we affect and how it affects us; in those COVID meetings, thinking through, how do we solve this great challenge that we've never seen or experienced in the world?How do we create the infrastructure to get shots in arms, to get kids back in school, right?Like all of that.… And meanwhile we're going through it as a staff.We were not even in the same room for the first six months.I couldn't even sit across from her without having a mask on.And there were sometimes we weren't even allowed in the room with her, right?That all created a strain on the team and even on her that is unimaginable, that I think people didn't really have an appreciation for, and definitely not the reporters at the time as they sort of picked her apart that first year.They were unfair and brutal in a lot of ways I thought was unbecoming and not considerate of the full context of what we were dealing with. And the path that she was on and the road that she had to take as, again, new to that role, having to learn and develop a whole new set of skills. And figure out: How do you reconcile [a] 56-year-old Black-Asian woman from California with a 70-plus-year-old guy who's been a creature of the Senate, elected official for 40-plus years, how do you reconcile those two things?That is a challenge in and of itself.

So it was really a very tough year that, again, the pressure of it all.We were on the threshing floor, as I like to call it.And that pressure, I think, forced her to come out like a diamond.

… That first year does look different as you look at it now, which is also what makes it an interesting year.It's been reported that when Joe Biden was vice president, he was frustrated with some of the decisions because he couldn't make the decisions, and President Obama was making the decisions.Was that an adjustment for her, and what was her relationship with the president in the year that you were there?

They have a mutual respect for each other, and they developed the beginnings of what I think is now a very strong relationship.You have to start by building trust, and that's what we had to do between those two teams, was to build trust.But it was in a very intense environment.Again, it was unprecedented times with COVID.But they started to spend a lot of time together.Again, they were together every morning in the presidential briefings.She was almost at every decision table, was the last one in the room, was standing next to him when he would sign bills.So she was really shadowing the president, I think in some respects to the dismay and the chagrin of some people on his team.But she was aggressively shadowing him, because we understood that when you're the vice president for a president who's 70-plus years old, you could be the president at any moment, so she was learning the job day one.That was the aim and the goal, is to stick with the president and learn as much as you possibly can about the job.

Biden, when he came into being vice president, he had the benefit of 30-some-odd years in the Senate, having worked with multiple presidents, passing multiple pieces of legislation.So he had a sort of a jump start when he came into the White House.And I think he probably had a level of comfortability with the job that she didn't have the advantage of having.

So it was really grinding learning mode was the first year, and starting to lay the foundation for what was possible, which we didn't know … what was going to be possible at the time, but we knew we needed to prepare.So that was—the first year was all preparation and developing that relationship, that closeness with him, the two teams coming together to become one team and preparing her for whatever the possibility was.

Harris Takes on Root Causes of Migration

How does she end up with the root causes of migration, which seems like a pretty tough assignment and maybe not one that you would want to take on politically?

Yeah.Well, I will say, there is no easy assignment when you're working in the White House.They're all very tough assignments.And the way that it happened was, as it's reported, he literally called her up and said, “OK, here is what it is.Here is the assignment.”But I think that the benefit of that assignment was that it awakened her to and started to prepare her for the big job.He could have given her any number of responsibilities and roles, but that has to be one of the toughest, and if you can handle that one, then you can handle just about any of them.And if you want to be the president, this is a perpetual problem.It didn't begin with Joe Biden; it's not going to end with Kamala Harris.This is always going to be an issue for us to deal with and contend with.

And I think she took on the assignment in a way that no other person has.He also gave her the assignment because he had the assignment, and I think he understood the value of that, right?You're doing domestic policy, foreign policy; you're dealing with heads of states.It was really almost like a good primer, if you ask me, on how to be and serve as president of the United States.And she took on that job, and she did something that I think, again, went over people's head that was similar to what she did as attorney general, and that was to bring public funds together with private funds, nonprofits, so everyone who had equity in a stake in the border, she brought them to the table and asked them to commit to solving the problem, to being a part of the solution.I think she raised something like $5 billion toward addressing the root causes.

So in the end, I think she grew from the experience but was able to demonstrate and transfer over some of what she found to be effective as attorney general in solving and dealing with that problem.

So what happened on the trip to Guatemala?And why is it that they don't, the discussion is not about raising $5 billion, but is about the Lester Holt interview?Help me understand what happened there.

So I wasn't on the trip.I decided to stay back and sort of man the fort in case something happened.You always need someone to hang back and to help address whatever might happen.And I think she had a bad interview.I think she was exhausted and tired.But she had a bad interview.And it's sort of what happens in Washington, especially when you're a woman and a high-ranking elected official.If you have a misstep, people hyper-focus on it, and then they hang it around your neck like an albatross.I mean, ask Hillary Clinton or Nancy Pelosi.

But my advice at the time to her was, “You've got to punch back.As a woman in this business, you've got to learn to have a counterpunch.You can't expect to step into the arena and not get knocked down.But you’ve got to get back up.”And so that became the challenge, which is how do I get back up after being knocked down?And I think she took full stock of that trip, what went wrong on the trip, what went right.We had a debriefing as a team about it.There's some great things that came out of that trip.But the bad interview, obviously, overshadowed some of the good work that happened.And the $5 billion didn't come until much later.This was very early on.So yeah.

I've seen it.And my assessment was the same as yours.It's not a great interview.But it sticks for a long time up until recently as defining her, and the discussion around her becomes that she's overly careful with her words, that she's maybe not skilled as a politician.How does that happen?

How does what happen?

How does that narrative happen, that goes from that interview to—it sort of snowballs into—

Well, I think the reality is, is it didn't happen in isolation.I think it built on a narrative that was preexisting even before she got into the White House, that she was a little guarded, was less comfortable with engaging the media.So I think it just built on a narrative that already existed and hadn't been dealt with, the narrative.This is just insider sort of communications, strategy speak, right?

So that's why I think it was—it's two factors.One is that it built on a preexisting narrative about her, and then two, we weren't in a position to turn the page fast enough because we were in the middle of COVID.

So for those two reasons, it stuck, and it continues to stick.But I think now it's in the rearview mirror.When I see her now, she's not anywhere close to the person she was in the first year.I don't even actually recognize her.I'm so excited for her, because it's clear that, again, she's become so much more fortified in who she is and is clear-eyed about the challenge before us and has more confidence in her ability and what she brings to the table.And that was only going to be a matter of time for her to figure out, because again, she's transitioned to this new space, where everything you've built before—not everything, most of what you had built before was not transferable to this new role.And it's a new role, and you've got to learn it.New boss, new role.She wasn't the top executive anymore.She's always been the top executive in each one of her jobs, so understanding how to be a No. 2 was challenging, you know, how to find my role on a—I often describe the White House as a high-speed train, and her job was to figure out, well, how do I jump on this thing?Am I in car one?Am I in the back?Where do I fit in this dynamic?And it's just flying by, zooming past you, at an incredible rate of speed and intensity that sometimes it takes you a minute to figure all of that out.

Challenges as the First Black Female Vice President

… Tell me more about that about what that means, for her to be coming into an office that has never seen somebody like her and how you would see that on a daily basis.

It shows up in a lot of ways—the degree to which they respect her, respect her authority, give her the authority, the way they would respond to her.

There was a story that was written—I wasn't at the White House at the time—but that she walked into the Roosevelt Room, and the staff didn't stand up for her, right?So those are the kind of microaggressions and sexism and racism that was present even within the White House.And even outside the White House we had to deal with that as well.We were constantly having to re-credential her.“Why is she here?” was the constant question.I'm like, “What do you mean?She's been attorney general, a senator—a U.S. senator.Why do we have to continue to answer some of these questions about her qualifications, why she's qualified, what her vision of the world is?”I'm like, “We already—we have a president.She's the vice president, not the president.”

So the expectations of her were different.And I think having worked for Pelosi and Kamala Harris, I was able to see how race also was a factor in how people treated her.There were oftentimes, as I said, they would be dismissive of things she would say and try to belittle her publicly.There were a lot of quotes that were coming, flying out of the White House about her that were not true, that were disparaging.So we had to fight internally and externally these factors of racism and sexism and, in the confluence of all of them, to really position her, but also to affirm her in ways that the environment would not.We had to focus on being very intentional about that.

How would she respond to that?She'd been dealing with it her whole career.How did she respond to that?

But it was at a different level.I mean, Fox News every day was hammering her.And I just remember going into her office, and Fox News would be playing, and I'm thinking to myself, who turned on Fox News?Why would we have this on?When you're in that type of position as a woman, and a woman of color, you have to have people around you who are very sensitive to how you're treated and that are intentional about affirming you and helping you sort of drown out the noise; understanding that it's noise and then drown out the noise to stay very focused on the task in front of you.

And I think there were times which it did rattle her, without a doubt, because it was on a whole 'nother level.But again, I think in those moments, you have one or two options, and this is sort of how I presented it to her.We could let it get the best of us and get distracted by it, let it get us off of our game, or we can let it roll right off of us and take it as a sign and an affirmation that we're being effective, because they don't come after you unless you're effective.If you're a non-factor, no one's paying any attention to you, but if they're fearful, concerned about you, or think you're effective, they're going to come after you.So you could take it as a compliment to some degree.

… What is her life strategy for dealing with let’s say something that's sort of blatantly sexist or racist?She doesn't issue a statement, I gather, about it.

No.

Why not? What's the strategy?

The strategy—and I think this is also really important, something we did in the first year that is yielding dividends for her, and I kind of learned this from Pelosi.It's kind of interesting.I don't know if you want to add that.But Pelosi has what we would call “the list.”And so if some reporter or some guy, or even gal, said she had a hair out of place, for example—I mean, this is an exaggeration for a point, not that we need to do this—so we would activate the list, and then people would pounce: “Sexist.How dare you?Holding women to a different standard”—holding those people accountable.And that was something I learned from working with Pelosi, and I realized that Harris didn't have that.She didn't have that infrastructure that we could activate when she got into a jam or when she was being unfairly treated and we needed people to call it out in a way that we weren't going to be able to call it out.

So what we started to do in that first year was to build kind of a squad for her, an infrastructure that we could activate whenever we needed to.Also, that was a lesson learned when she went down to do the Lester Holt interview.When we got into a jam, I'm like, well, who can I call to get on TV and help change the narrative?

So anyway, to say it a little more succinctly, when we found ourselves in a place where we were dealing with the onslaught coming from Fox News and a conservative media in a lot of different places that were not just framing her character, criticizing her for all the superficial things from her laugh to sort of stumbling over her words, I realized at that moment, we need to build an infrastructure for her.We need to build an army of women and people who can wrap themselves around her, who can cloak her to protect her in times that we need, who can help us change the narrative, advance our own message about her, who can help sort ofserve as—how would I describe this?—serve as an extension of our staff, to build an apparatus for her that would support her when she needed to.

And so we started that process.So rather than sort of sulk and get down and let it get the best of us, we were like, “OK, well, we recognize that this exposed a vulnerability that she has, that we need to build a stronger infrastructure for her and an apparatus that can protect her in times when we need it; that can push back on bad media narratives; that can inform people about what she's actually doing in ways that we could not within that White House.” ...And I remember sitting down with her, and she would ask me—we were in her office—“Well, what are we going to do about Fox News?”And I was like, “Well, we’ve got to run our own race, stay focused on our own race.Meanwhile, we start to build a team that can come to your defense when we need them to.”

… It seems like, for Kamala Harris, emphasizing the historic nature of her candidacy in any of these offices is never the first thing or even on the list of things.

And neither was it for Barack Obama, right?I mean, he didn't talk about being the first, the first Black president.So I think there were a lot of lessons that had been learned, and the beginnings of a playbook for a Kamala Harris run for the presidency.And you can see her now implementing those strategies.

One of the stories at the time is about turmoil in the staff and people coming and going, and you leave.What's the truth of that story?

The truth of that first year was that it was incredibly hard.It was incredibly hard for a number of reasons.One, we were in the middle of a global pandemic.And it was the first time—I had been working in government for 20 years—it was the first time that what the nation was experiencing, we were all experiencing, right?If there's a recession, I’ve got a good government job; I'm not really feeling the effects of that.But we were all stressed out as a nation if you go back and think about those days.Our kids weren't in school; we couldn't touch our loved ones.We couldn't be in the room with the vice president.I couldn't hear her.She couldn't hear me, because I had a mask on.Like we weren't as a team even in the same building.People were still at home for the first six months.And that has an effect on the team and took a toll on the team.

Also, too, I think a lot of people, like me, were just dealing with the stresses of COVID and decided that I needed to commit more time to my family.I had a six-year-old daughter as a single mom.I had a dad I was the caregiver for; he went blind.I mean, it was just a lot going on at the time.

The other things I would say were factors, were, we were all a new team in a new building with a new principal, and not even in the room.And I don't know that you can imagine what that's like, but it's hard to develop a level of camaraderie, to understand your principal not even being in the same room with her and not being able to talk to her.It's hard to strategize, to even think coherently with all of the stresses going on from COVID.So I just think it was a hard year, just like it was for the rest of the nation.

And I don't think people had an appreciation for that.They just sort of adopted the easiest narrative, which is there's a lot of infighting.The reality is, I've worked in two White Houses; there’s always infighting.It's like everyone's always angling for power and access, so there's always going to be a level of that.But I think it was the stresses were heightened because we felt the burden of getting the country out of this incredible, terrible time.And it wasn't just COVID.I mean, we were coming off the heels of Jan. 6.I mean, impeachments, racial turmoil.It was just a confluence of the most challenging consequences you can imagine, and that had an effect on the team.

… As you hear the discussion, even while that's happening inside Washington, about her poll numbers, about should Joe Biden replace her on the ticket, is she holding him back, is there some way to get her off the ticket, what are you thinking as you hear that, I think mostly unnamed sources?

No, I was asked about it on Face the Nation by Margaret Brennan, and I sort of gave her like a “Girl, are you—are you OK?Of course he's going to run with her.”I was insulted by it, but I also understood it, because she's always been underestimated.And so are women, and so are women of color.And so, again, the way that I process, is initially you're insulted by the notion that anyone would suggest that she was not prepared to be ready for the job on day one and that she didn't deserve to be on the ticket with Joe Biden.But I was also encouraged by the notion that, of what I know about Kamala Harris, and that is I think she's exceptionally well when her back's against the all, when she's underestimated.I think that's when she rises to the occasion, and that's what we're seeing with her right now.

So I kind of was chuckling in the back of my mind like, she'll show you.And she has, with every one of her—if you go back and do the history on her races, each one of her races, she was underestimated and counted out.And in the end, she pulled it out.And so I knew that to be true about Kamala Harris, that when it comes down to the wire, and her back's against the wall, she's always going to rise to the occasion.So it was only a matter of time when the opportunity was created.I felt like it was going to be a matter of time.It was only going to be a matter of time when she was going to prove everyone wrong.

Harris After the Dobbs Decision

How important was her coming out after Dobbs and talking about abortion, when that was something Biden wasn't so comfortable with?

I mean, it's critically important.One, because it's an issue that she feels very strongly about.She's a lawyer, so she understands the implications of undermining, reversing Roe, not just on the health of women but legally what it meant.So it was critically important, I think, that she leaned into the issue.But as I said, she was already leaning into the issue before the Supreme Court decision.She was already building the foundations, engaging women's rights groups, meeting with them consistently about a whole host of other issues.

So it was just a matter of perfect timing, where the stars aligned for her, and it was an issue in a lane that she could own, that was her own.And I think when you're the vice president, and you're in that role, as I mentioned to you, day one, you're a governing partner with the president, but you need to find your own lane that enables you to find your own voice, establish your own infrastructure, your own following.And that's what Roe provided for her, an opportunity for her to stake out her own lane that she could own, that we knew, and she knew, would have resonance with a broad swath of the American public.

And more importantly also leaned on her legal background and provided an opportunity for her to really start this larger framework of the threats that exist today and that we’re facing in the American public, like talking about these issues in a broader context of, these are the threats facing us and the effort to undermine and roll back the rights and the privileges that we've become accustomed to as a nation.

Biden Steps Aside and Harris Steps Up

… So we've been talking about this change that's happened over her vice presidency, and maybe some people in Washington were noticing a change, and maybe they weren't.But it seems like there is a moment where people really suddenly notice her, which is after the debate with President Biden's performance, and she's on cable television in the hours afterwards.Can you help me understand that moment and sort of how important it was for that woman who we've been talking about, who's sort of been getting prepared, when she meets a moment of crisis for the president she works for, for her party?

Yeah.I think that's when she's at her best, when her back's against the wall, when the pressure is on to perform.She rose to the occasion that night.And people noticed.I was getting flooded with text messages from people across the political spectrum that were impressed with how she was handling herself and defending the president.

The other factor is, is she doesn't do many national big interviews, so people hadn't really seen that Kamala Harris.And that opportunity—there was an opportunity that was presented, and she just knocked it out of the park, and in an incredible big way that, I think, made clear to people that she wasn't hiding, that she was ready, that she had Joe Biden's back, that she was going to put up a fight.And I think people appreciated that about her.People needed to see that from her.And I think she performed incredibly well.

It's such a dramatic moment for so many people who hadn't been paying attention to her, and I think on cable news, people were saying, “Where has she been?”What's your reaction to that when you would hear people say where had she been, or where had this Kamala Harris been?

I mean, I always reacted—here is the thing is, national media did not cover Kamala Harris properly.They, after the first year, moved on from her.And she also, I think, contributed to that by not doing really big interviews and speeches and presentations.But it was a smart strategy to get outside of Washington and focus on the country and learning the country, meeting voters where they are, Americans where they are, in their hometowns, in their ice cream parlors, in their backyards.We had backyard conversations all the time, talking about the issues that really mattered to them.That's where she needed to build and grow and develop.It wasn't doing Sunday shows and national interviews.She didn't need that.

And I think it was smart and wise of her to focus on running her own race.It takes courage to say, “I'm focused on my strategy, and I'm not going to be moved off of it.”And the strategy, at the time, during those two or three years was to grow and develop.And she did that.But the time came where she had to step up to the moment, and she did.And I think it made clear to people then that she could do it, that she could be the president, that people could have confidence in her.

But I don't think that moment would have happened had she not spent the two, three years barnstorming the country, building and growing her confidence and understanding of the American people and how to arrive at a moment like that.

… The moment—I don't know if you know about it firsthand, but it's a remarkable moment when she must get that phone call from Joe Biden, saying, “I'm going to be dropping out of the race.”And it puts her in the middle of an incredible crisis.

Yeah.I wasn't there, but I can imagine, like the night of the debate, when she's called to duty, she steps up.Just like in many of her races, when she was counted out, she stepped up and delivered, and that's what we're seeing right now.I think what's so poetic about it is it came at a time when she was prepared for it.And to some degree, it's kind of incredible, because what sort of befuddled her in her primary race now are all not just her strengths but kind of taken care of, like the infrastructure is already there; the campaign is already established; they're already working together.She's in an unprecedented position of being an incumbent yet being a challenger, so she's got this incredible record that she can take credit for as a governing partner to the president, but also she can drop a lot of the baggage that comes along with President Biden.

It’s an incredible turn of events, and there's no other way to me to see it other than the universe is at work, and is working on not just her behalf but the nation's behalf, because again, it came at a moment when she was completely ready, that all of her negatives are now her positives, and the most challenging parts of running a national campaign were already solved for her.And she only has 90 days to run.So you don't have any time to overthink it.It's go time.Put your foot on the gas.Just like that night of the debate, it's time to show up, and she's done it in an unprecedented way and fashion.

I don't think we're giving her enough credit for what she's been able to accomplish in just two weeks’ time: $200 million, majority of it from small donors, first-time donors; 100,000 volunteers in a matter of a week, more than 100,000 volunteers.I mean, that is unprecedented and is incredible.And so what it says to me is that not only was she ready, but the nation was ready.

People have told us that if you go back and you look at those first speeches that she gives at the campaign headquarters, and when she goes on the road, that they were really crucial, because people had a conception of who she was, and then when they watched them, they saw things in her, the way she paused to let the crowd respond.When you watched those, how did you see?Was she the same?

Oh, I didn't even recognize her.When I saw her, it was like, oh, my gosh, who's this Kamala Harris?She was, you know, she was—what's the word?—seasoned at that job.Remember what I said before.She was an attorney before.That skill set doesn't translate.So she spent three years learning that job, learning how to present your ideas in a message, in a way that you come across as confident, self-assured, and all of that, she was just oozing all of that on that stage.

And I kind of felt, I don't know, a little tear come into my eye, because I'm like, she's ready.And I felt honored to have been a part of that development.It makes me emotional now, emotional then, because now is the time, and she is demonstrating to the nation that Kamala Harris I saw the first time we had our first meeting in closed doors, behind the scenes, in our first meeting together.

… So the last question, the one that we ask everybody that we talk to, is in your opinion, what is the choice that voters face in November?

Oh.Oh, my gosh.I think—I think Kamala Harris has really laid it out perfectly.It's a choice between going backwards or going forward.It's a choice between going backwards and choosing to uphold and realize the ideals of America, who we actually say we are.I think that is the question before us that both Biden and Kamala Harris have so eloquently laid out for the nation, which is who do we want to be as a country?Do we want to be the type of country that is anti: anti-women, anti-LGBTQ, anti-progress, anti-rights?Do we want a country that's run by someone who says they're going to be a dictator on day one and do away with the Constitution, or do we want to be a nation that's that light on the hill, as Reagan said, right, the city on the hill?Do we want to be the nation that believes in and advances equality for all people?Do we want to remain a nation that's an example, a model of democracy around the world?

That's what it comes down to.It's really that simple.Do we want to be Donald Trump's America, or do we want to move, as Gov. Walz said, together in a neighborly fashion, where we care for our neighbors and embrace each other in love and we fortify those bonds that we have as a nation and really continue to realize the ideals of this country?

And I think that's really what it boils down to.And I think the American people are speaking loudly.They're speaking with their checkbooks, with their organizing.The campaign can't find locations to hold as many people who want to go to their rallies.They're communicating in so many different ways that they don't want to go backwards. ...Do we want a president who's going to lie to the American people, or do we want someone who's going to elevate us to our better angels?And I think that's really the choice before us.

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