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Carol Moseley Braun
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Carol Moseley Braun
D-Illinois
Carol Moseley Braun served as a U.S. senator from Illinois from 1993 to 1999. She was the first African American woman elected to the U.S. Senate and only the second African American U.S. senator elected since Reconstruction. She served on the Senate Judiciary Committee under the leadership of Joe Biden. In 2004, she sought the Democratic nomination for president.
The following interview was conducted by FRONTLINE’s Jim Gilmore on July 1, 2020. It has been edited for clarity and length.
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The Clarence Thomas Hearings
I’m going to take you back to the beginning.… You won your Senate seat in 1992.It was the Year of the Woman.You ran because of the [Clarence] Thomas hearings.Take me back to that moment and explain how they affected you and why that motivated you to run for the Senate.
I was the recorder of deeds of Cook County, [Illinois], at the time and a former United States attorney – assistant United States attorney, and so frankly had not thought about the Senate, the United States Senate as a career path, as part of a career path.But when the hearings started, I was reminded of the fact that this nominee was supposed to replace Thurgood Marshall as the Black person on the United States Supreme Court.And having grown up in an environment that—all my whole life experiences had been made possible by the Warren court and Thurgood Marshall’s involvement in it.
And so I was inspired by the fact that this new Thurgood Marshall, a new person to take that spot, was so diametrically opposed to the things that Thurgood Marshall stood for, worked for, had made possible, and it was like, I was horrified by that.
Then came the Anita Hill—You remember that happened later in the process.Then came the hearings in which Anita Hill was, I thought, treated so badly.And those two things together pushed me over the edge, and I said, you know what?Win, lose or draw, I’m going to go for this and just try it.
And I got out there with a lot of people laughing and saying I didn’t have a snowball’s chance, if you will.But I did it anyway, and happily had the support of a lot of people who were similarly offended by what they saw.And I wound up winning the primary.And once that happened, it was, you know, Katy bar the door.
Sen. Biden at that point, of course, was center stage because he was the chairman.He tried to cater to both sides, to some extent, but he became a symbol in some ways of a failed process or whatever.… Did it cause problems for him politically, do you think?
Well, I didn’t personally know him at the time.I had seen him on television, on the recordings of the Senate, and so I really couldn’t calculate what damage had been done to him as a politician or as an elected official at that point.I came to know him much better, but when I ran for office, I did not know Joe Biden personally.And so, again, I can’t really answer your question.
But I have to tell you that here in Illinois, women were just mesmerized by the hearings, outraged at what had happened.They looked up and saw a very non-diverse United States Senate Judiciary Committee.There was not a woman there, not to mention person of color.It was just all these, like, cookie cutters, and folks were really horrified by it.And I think that gave a lot of impetus to my candidacy and to my campaign for the Senate.
Biden Recruits Women to the Judiciary Committee
So lo and behold, you win.And lo and behold, Sen. Biden comes knocking on your door.Tell me a little bit about that story and what his purpose was.
Well, you’re talking about the cherry pie story, right?
Yes, of course.
I did not bake the cherry pie from scratch.I went downstairs, bought one, and stuck it in the oven.He called and said he wanted to come and visit with me personally, and I’m going, why?You know, I just moved; I’m living amongst boxes; it was just a terrible setting and situation.But I ran downstairs, got a pie, came up, threw it in the oven.And so by the time he got to my apartment, you know, the pie was ready, and we were able to talk over coffee and pie.And he kept imploring me to serve on the Judiciary Committee.And I told him, you know, I had been on judiciary committees in my state legislature, you know, and I was convinced that this was a—this was a death sentence.It was like, you’re going to relegate me to the committee that’s “How many angels dance on the head of a pin?” and stuff people will never agree on.So why would I do that to myself?
Well, he was very persuasive, as he can be.And I finally concluded that it made sense for me to, again, since I cared so much about these issues, and that it made sense to me to get on the committee anyway.And he was the one—he drove it home; he made the sale, if you will, and drove it home.And I agreed to go on the Judiciary Committee.
What was his sales pitch?
His sales pitch was essentially: “You can do a lot of good on this committee.You can be involved with a lot of the issues you care about.You can make a difference.”He said all those things, and I believed him.And again, he was very authentic.I think that was the thing that really came through for me, how authentic he was.He wasn’t just saying this to position himself or to make a point.It wasn’t talking points by any means.He was just genuine and made the point that it was about service, which has always resonated with me personally, that it was an opportunity to serve in a way that I thought would be appropriate for my Senate tenure.
Was he trying to make a point, also, that you are a woman, you’re a Black woman?
He did not.And in fact, I made a joke, which he didn’t think was funny at all.I said, “You just want Anita Hill on the other side of the table.”He did not laugh.He didn’t think it was funny, and he still probably doesn’t.But anyway, so but, no, he didn’t touch on that at all.But that was my conclusion when I said, you know, “You just want Anita Hill on the other side of the table,” because, you know, her treatment was one of the things that galvanized the women’s support not just here in Illinois, but all over the country.I mean, I got support from here as well as around the country, from women who really wanted to see a little diversity in the Senate.And the Judiciary Committee at that moment was on the bubble because it had been so hotly debated, and all of the hearings had been such a major press situation.And so he convinced me, and I decided to do it.And I went on the committee, and I’m not sorry I did.I mean, it turned out to be a really good thing for me, both politically and personally, as well as professionally.And I got to know Joe Biden and to work with him closely on any number of issues, which are still frankly resonating, not to mention the Confederate flag.I mean, he helped me with that.Lupus, which is another whole issue.I mean, all these things that I care about came through that committee.So he was right.
He understood—I think it’s pretty clear, he understood that the way America had seen that committee, they weren’t happy with, and what he was trying to do was try to fix that?… What did he understand at that moment?
I think he understood that diversity made a difference, and it was a positive thing to get some additional voices on that committee to help understand and help work through the conversations about the issues, and that he was, in his own way, helping the institution to move forward and to progress, which was very much like Joe Biden.He really tries to fix things and to help out in a selfless way, and this was his selflessness on display.
Biden as Mentor
… He became your mentor, you said.You felt to some extent a bit ostracized in this group of older white men.But he sought you out.Explain a little bit about that relationship and what that showed about Joe Biden as a man.
Understand, when I got to the Senate, there had never been anybody that looked anything like me there.The guards did not want to let me on the Senate floor when I first showed up for work.I mean, it was that kind of bad.And so I was there in the Senate; I was the only Black person, the only Black woman certainly.And so Joe’s—Joe Biden’s mentorship and protection was very, very important to me personally.And he was able to show me—you know, most of the rules are not written.I mean, it’s all very unwritten; it’s all very collegial.And so he was able to help me navigate some of the unwritten rules, to navigate the Senate, to get through.I mean, I take full responsibility for all my mess-ups and the things I didn’t do right, but for the things that I did do right, it was in large part because of his influence.
Biden as Vice President
Let’s talk about him as vice president.2008, of course, he had run, and he did not last very long.There’s the famous story of the gaffe that he said about Obama.And that hurt him.And then the ironic, or not so ironic, thing is—is that Obama reaches out to him as the man he decides to be his partner, his vice president.Talk a little bit about that.Why did Obama pick Joe Biden?What did he bring to bear?
Well, for one thing, Joe—Joe Biden brought institutional knowledge.He brought knowing how the process works, knowing how to make government work for people.So I think in that regard it was a very smart thing for Barack Obama to do in picking Joe Biden to be his running mate, his vice president.To be honest, I mean, I’m going to get a chance to put in two words here about what you refer to as the “gaffe,” because what he was saying, when he said about being clean, he was actually referring to me, in a way, because I had stepped on a national stage and fell flat on my face.I mean, I really, you know, I’d had one problem after another.It was terrible.I got beat up.I survived, thank goodness, and in large part, again, because Joe Biden came to my rescue and really helped me clear my name.But having said that, when Barack ran, he had not been in the Senate an entire year at that—well, maybe two years.But he had not served an entire term yet, and he needed the support of someone who knew his way around government, and that was Joe Biden.And that he chose Joe Biden, I think, speaks well of his decision making and the fact that he—you know, the whole idea is you try to find somebody who fills in the blanks for your own capacity.And so he went and found someone in Joe Biden who literally filled in the blanks, and then some, with regard to his own—his own deficits.And so—and that was how it was that they were able to develop the kind of partnership that Joe Biden talks about that they had, because Joe Biden knew his way around government in a way that Barack Obama did not. …
Biden and Race During the Obama Administration
For Obama, of course, he [Biden] brought a lot of powers and tools with him, the knowledge of foreign affairs, for instance, and certainly the way to relate to Congress and such.And we’ll talk about that.But another thing he did which is more unusual is he ended up—Obama seemed to be constrained on race issues because of the fact that he was the first Black president.… Joe seemed to have been very helpful with that as well.… Talk a little bit about that role and what that meant, and again what that says about the relationship.
Well, I can’t speak to the relationship exactly, but what I can speak to is that in my experience, Joe Biden was fearless in addressing issues having to do with race.He was not constrained by any fear of backlash or fear that he wouldn’t get elected on that issue, because of race, because of his position on race.But he was very good on those issues, which is why I signed on early to help and support him, because I had watched him, and from the lens of someone—I grew up in the civil rights movement.I’m backtracking.I grew up in the civil rights movement.I marched with Dr. King.I’ve been involved with every civil rights issue ever since I was, you know, out of high school.
So I come from that—I understand the optics of that perspective.And I understand—I’m on the board of an African American history museum.And so I know the history; I care about it.And Joe Biden was always on the right side of history when it came to race.He was able to provide a guiding light for Barack Obama, who, frankly, was a little touchy about these things, as you rightly point out.
So Joe Biden was able to help him be better on those issues than he might have been without Joe.And so I think that—and that’s—I think we saw the proof in the pudding for that in South Carolina.The people there understood absolutely this man had been on the right side of history when it came to race along—all the way, and, particularly being a Southern state, they were prepared to go and step forward to reward him for his service on those issues.
And so I think that—I hope I’ve answered your question, but I think that he was able to be a star, a guiding light for Barack Obama on issues of race. …
Biden’s Decision Not to Run in 2016
He didn’t run in 2016.He wanted to.His son died that year, so it became even more difficult.How difficult was that decision?Are you surprised by that decision?Did that seem like the end of his political career at that point when you look back at it?
I’ll tell you something.I went to Beau’s funeral because, again, Joe had been so nice to me, and, you know, he was there for me when I had tragedies in my own life.And so it was like, just appropriate that I go.And so that he didn’t run didn’t surprise me.He was so beat up about losing Beau Biden.Beau was such a—he was such a shining light.I mean, he was such a good guy.And his dad was just devastated.And so he was not in any shape to run in ’16.So he made the best decision for himself personally in that, I believe. …
Biden’s Response to Tragedy
You said something that a lot of people say when you talk about Joe Biden, which is that “When tragedies hit my life, he was there.”Explain that. Explain what that is about him.
Well, OK, back to my own Senate career, right?I get to the United States Senate.My mother died within the first month.So, you know, when that happened, I mean, everybody can relate to their mother dying.I mean, it was just a horrible, horrible time for me.And Joe Biden was there.I was just getting my foot into the water as a senator, just starting on the Judiciary Committee, and here was someone who empathized and who was very, very kind to me at that time.
And so, you know, you go through this life when you meet people along the way who, again, are selfless and who are good and trying to do good for others.You can’t turn your back on that; at least I don’t think you can.And so—and he never did.He was always on the right side of the issues as a human being, as well as an elected official. …
Biden’s Record on Civil Rights
He brings with him a very long history of events that he’s been involved in because he’s been in public service for so long.And it came up in the primaries, and it will all come up again when Donald Trump has his chance.So let’s talk about some of the elements that he’s going to be hit with again and sort of get your overview on it.So during the debates in the primaries, he’s attacked for his record.Kamala Harris hits him that one debate on busing.How did he handle that?And what is the legacy of his background and his belief back from early on in ‘72 election, as well as before that, that he was against busing?Is that something that’s damaging?
Well, let me say this.I like Sen. Harris.I do, very much.She’s a Black woman.She’s the second Black woman now in the United States Senate.I know she’s got an uphill road ahead of her in dealing with all the dynamics of that place.Having said that, I think when she took on Joe on busing was a cheap shot, and I said as much.I think it was below the belt because he—again, if you’re going to find a United States senator who’s on the right side of issues having to do with Black people and integration into this society, it’s Joe Biden.You can’t get around that.And so to take a shot on him on busing, which was and still is controversial, just seems to me to be below the belt.And frankly I don’t know that it got her anything.
So did it hurt Joe?I don’t know.It might have with some, you know—there’s so many different constituencies out there, it might have hurt him with somebody.But from my own experience and my own testimonial is that he has been on the right side of these issues having to do with race, having to do with integration, having to do with empowerment of Black people.Even—and I mentioned the Confederate flag, which is now all in the news again.But even down to that, he has always been there for the African American community in this country.
And so I think that—I think maybe that shot may have hurt her more than it did Joe.
… The other issue that you can help us with—to give a better understanding of is … coming into the Senate and working too closely with Southern segregationists on busing and on the crime bills.What’s—what was going on there?How should that be evaluated?
… The fact of the matter is that Joe Biden worked with, quote, “the segregationists”—Jesse Helms and the Strom Thurmonds of the world—really, you know, he cares about the institution, so you have to make the institution work, which means you have to talk to everybody.And that’s what he did.He made it a point to talk to some of the, quote, “good ol’ boys,” the Blue Dog Democrats even.And what that did, it actually made a difference on so many different fronts.
When I battled to remove the patent from the Confederate flag, the terminal—the moment that things turned around was when one of those good ol’ boys, Sen. Howell Heflin from Alabama, stood up and said, “My grandfather was a Confederate general, and he would tell us that she’s right.”And so he supported me in that fight, in large part because of the kind of work that Joe Biden had been doing on it. …
Biden and the Crime Bills
The other big issue that came up in the primaries and might come up is the crime bills, the ’86, the ’88 and the ’94.The ’94, of course, had things that you were very involved with—the Violence Against Women Act, the ban on assault rifles and such.But there’s blowback about—in the Black community about the fact that some of these earlier crime bills, of course, created mass incarcerations.… From your point of view, how does one put into perspective that—those issues and Joe’s involvement in it?
Well, let me say this.I think that—again, I don’t want to sound like a broken record here, but this—Joe Biden’s selflessness meant that he wanted to do the best thing for the American people.And when you consider particularly the—the ’94 crime bill was the only one that I was around for.But that was Bill Clinton’s bill, and people forget that.It was Bill Clinton’s initiative, and Joe Biden, as chairman of the judiciary, it was his job to shepherd it through the process.He did everything he could to make it a good bill.He went around the country talking to chiefs of police to get their input around things like community policing, which I cared about, but at the time, people were laughing and ridiculing community policing.He even put in midnight basketball into the bill, which is something I thought was important.You know, get the police involved with the community in a positive way, and that’s a bulwark against the kind of crime that we’re experiencing.
You know about assault weapons; you know about violence against women.I mean, all those things were important.And again, that bill was a very important bill.Mass incarceration became the thing later.And it’s a terrible thing because, quite frankly, the United States has the biggest per capita prison population on the planet, which is terrible.That says we’re not doing a very good job of keeping our society working.But if we can begin to address the systemic issues and address the issues that alienate people from government or from the community, I think that we will be able to begin to address and deal with the crime problem, which we’re still plagued with.I mean, it’s still a horrible, horrible thing.It’s not as bad now as it was in ’94, but it’s still pretty bad. …
Biden’s Support from Black Women
Black women voters are extremely important to the Democratic Party and to Joe Biden’s future here.Talk a little bit about why they’re important, and is Joe Biden someone that Black women can trust to have in the leadership of the United States to replace Donald Trump?
Absolutely.Absolutely Black women can trust Joe.Again, I don’t know how—I know I sound like a broken record here, but the fact of the matter is this guy has been there for Black women more than any other president, any other political figure I can think of over time.And the fact is that—well, there’s possible exceptions, but he’s been a leader in terms of the issues that Black women are concerned about.
Again, all you have to do is look at the demographics; look at the numbers.Black women are the most loyal Democratic voters.We get the least out of it, frankly.We’ve got the highest infant mortality.We have the biggest gap in terms of wages.We have the hardest time just making it in terms of the economy.Any statistic you look at, Black women come out on the bottom.
And so—but we continue to strive, continue to be hopeful that at some point there will be a political—there can be a political solution to some of these systemic issues that we face.And if anybody can lead that, it’s Joe Biden. …
The Dual Crises of 2020
We are in an enormous amount of crises now: COVID-19, the economy, the George Floyd murder and demonstrations throughout the country.And this is when Joe Biden secures the nomination.A grieving nation, crises that seem to get worse every day—what does he represent?What is his—the choice of Joe Biden, what does he bring to bear in an America right now that is hurting?
I think he represents the kind of leadership that we desperately need for this country, that’s selfless, that’s smart, that respects the history, that knows exactly what steps to take to make this country live up to its ideals.I mean, that is—that sounds very, like, flag-waving, but I mean it.If we’re ever going to make this a more perfect union, if we’re going to move this country in the direction that Dr. King called the arc of the moral universe, if we’re going to do that, we have to have leaders who understand that there is a morality about how government relates to people and to the community, and that that relationship is what makes America go forward.That’s what will protect our democracy.
And so there’s nothing short of the future of our democracy at stake in this election.And I just—I’m just hopeful that the voters will feel free to come to the polls, even in the environment that we have, which is, you know, this COVID has just turned everything upside down.And so we’re in a very difficult environment.But I hope that voters will see that there is hope with Joe Biden, and that hope can translate into tangible policy direction changes, policy decisions that will improve the quality of their lives, in spite of all the things that we’re going through.
And I would make another point.I just this week, because I’d mentioned how I love history, I saw an article that compared our present times with 1932.And it said that in 1932, they had a similar—because they had just come through the flu pandemic, the 1919 flu pandemic.So you had World War I, this horrible pandemic that was even more devastating than COVID is, and then you had the bonus payments were not being made to soldiers.So you had all this economic unrest and social unrest.
So the country was in as bad a shape as it is right now.Roosevelt came along and changed things.And I think Joe Biden can be our Roosevelt.
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