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Corey Lewandowski

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Corey Lewandowski

Fmr. Trump Campaign Manager

Corey Lewandowski is a Republican political strategist and Donald Trump’s former campaign manager. He remains a close confidant to the president.

The following interview was conducted by FRONTLINE’s Michael Kirk on June 18, 2020. It has been edited for clarity and length.

This interview appears in:

The Choice 2020

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Trump at the Military Academy

There’s one particular thing I’m interested in, which is his time in the military academy, partly because of his intense interest in strength and his love of the military and all of those other things, and we’re trying to get at the where did that get started in Donald Trump.Do you know why he went to the military academy?

You know, I don’t know, but I did have the opportunity to travel with Donald Trump up to the New York Military Academy during the campaign.We made a trip up there.We went up and landed on the helicopter, and he had the chance to tour some of the grounds there.It brought back, obviously, a number of memories for him as—there is a specific term, but he was the head of his class at that point, the lead cadet if you will, the one who is recognized as the leader in his—amongst his classmates.He was also an avid sports fan, a baseball player while he was at the academy.So I don’t know how he ended up there, but I do know that he really relished his time while he was there and seemed by all accounts to have succeeded. …

What can you imagine that he took from that experience?

Well, you know, Michael, I think when you look back and you go back to places where they had such important impact in your future, and most—you know, that’s people’s high school and people’s college—he looked back, and he seemed to be very fond of his time at the academy, the friendships that he made, his tenure there, and really the success that Donald Trump had there that allowed him to carry that forward to where he is today.I think those early years, those years of development at the academy were very important to him from a leadership perspective.And I would only envision that what he learned there was the leadership skills which he’s using today. …

Fred Trump, Sr.

You’ve just identified one of the traits that we have been trying to get: Where does he get the strength?Do you have any idea what kind of TV shows he watched when he was a kid?Has he ever talked about anything he really loved?

You know, we’ve never really talked about TV shows as a kid, more about the ones that he produced and was on, obviously The Apprentice and others.But I do think, without speaking out of turn, his father, Fred Trump, had an enormous influence on him.His older brother who passed away had an enormous influence on him.The work ethic that his father had all the way into his late 70s, and I’ve had the opportunity to speak with people who worked directly with Fred Trump and worked with then-Mr. Trump, Donald Trump, and they said the work ethic was identical, where even in his late 70s, Fred Trump was touring buildings, taking two and three steps at a time.He had this enormous amount of energy and was the type of individual who was described to me as relentless, never stopping, always trying to pursue new opportunities.And I think many people see that trait in this president.

What about their relationship?Did he ever talk—did the president ever talk to you about his dad?When he talks about him, what is the tone of his voice?Is it fond?Is it—what is it?

Well, I think the president obviously had enormous respect for his father, saw him as a larger-than-life figure.I mean, Fred Trump was someone who really dominated the real estate market in certain parts of New York for a long time, built an amazing business building apartment buildings for by and large low-income housing, starting in New York and then expanding through other parts.And Donald Trump tells the story often about when his father sent him to Cincinnati, Ohio, to oversee one of their projects there, and it was really the first time where then Donald Trump, young Donald Trump, was put in a charge of a major project that his father was building and overseeing, and it really showed him the expectation of going in and being a boss, making tough decisions, also being accountable to his father.

So I think Donald Trump, and I can’t speak for the other Trump family members, had enormous influence from their father, who was the hardworking, dedicated individual who always wanted to have something better for their family, and that loving, doting mother who was the stay-at-home individual who took care of the children while the father was out spending 20, 80, 100 hours a week coming up with new jobs and new opportunities for the family to be successful.

Fred, Jr., his older brother, the namesake of the father, was a troubled guy, alcoholic.Did the president ever talk about him?

Sure, talked about by and large the reason that Donald Trump has never had a drop of alcohol in his life is because of the impact that alcohol had in destroying his brother.Fred Trump was considerably older than Donald Trump, someone who Donald I think looked up to as a mentor, as someone who an older brother would normally be in every family, particularly an older brother who is the namesake to your father, one who is expected to carry on that legacy that his father had built.And having his life destroyed by alcohol is just—I think it was devastating to then-young Donald Trump, and he made the decision that early on he would not drink alcohol, he would not smoke cigarettes.And I think, you know, the president has been very forward, he has a number of other bad habits, but those two he doesn’t engage in. …

The Power of Positive Thinking

One of the other things that we found that was just really interesting was his dad was a member of the Norman Vincent Peale church in Manhattan, the Marble [Collegiate] Cathedral, whatever it is called, and this idea of the power of positive thinking, and he would take Donald with him of course when he was a young boy, and then Donald would go later.He was married there, married to Ivana there in that cathedral.This idea of the power of positive thinking and Normal Vincent Peale, did he ever talk about it to you?

Sure, he’s talked about his time at that church and listening to the sermons, which, you know, obviously, again, had a huge impact on his life growing up.And what the amazing thing is when you talk to candidate Trump, private citizen Trump or now President Trump, he has the opportunity and the ability to will you into thinking his way simply by the power of positive thinking.It’s not—it’s an amazing ability.

And I’ve had the privilege to be around so many amazing what I call politicians.Bill Clinton had that ability, for anybody who has ever met Bill Clinton, made you feel like you were the only person in the room regardless of your political affiliation.Deval Patrick, the former governor of Massachusetts, had a very similar ability when it came to interacting with individuals.And Donald Trump has that.So as soon as you walk into a room with Donald Trump, even if you fundamentally disagree with his principles, he has the opportunity to make you feel like you’re the only person in the room, and he is willing you over to his side.

And we’ve seen that so many times with media outlets, where we would say, “Mr. Trump, XYZ outlet treated you unfairly in this particular article or that particular publication.”He would say: “Bring them in.I can turn them.I can work on them.I’ll get them to see my way of thinking.”And I said, “That person will never change.”He said: “It doesn’t matter.I want to see them, and I want to tell them the way I see things.And I think I can change them.”And sometimes maybe he was successful, sometimes not so successful.

But going back to his boyhood days, listening to the pastor, I really think it had that impact where if you think positively, it can have that impact on you going forward.

Can you give me an example of that, anytime President Trump tried to bend somebody to him, a world leader, a media figure, whatever?

Well, look, you know, Bob Woodward is a classic example.The legendary Bob Woodward, he wrote the book Fear; he’s got another book coming out now in September.… The president was very disappointed, and he told me very candidly, that he didn’t get the opportunity to sit down with Bob Woodward the first time when the book was written.He wanted the opportunity to sit down and tell Bob his side of the story.So for Bob’s second book, which will come out just before the election, the president did sit down with Bob, spent a number of hours with him discussing issues that Bob wanted to talk about.

Now, it doesn’t necessarily mean the president bent Bob’s way of thinking on a topic, but it did give him the opportunity to inject his own way of thinking into the outcome of the book, and I think that’s a fair thing to do. …

Trump’s Power of Persuasion

How does it work with him when he does that, when he’s bringing you over to his side?What does he do?

He is very complimentary, obviously.You know, when he is talking to individuals, he knows who his audience is.He understands what’s important to them.Sometimes he does it with humor; sometimes he does it in a deprecating way; sometimes he will use terminology which, when you’ve been around the president, you know it’s an amazing compliment.When he calls you a killer, OK, that’s a compliment to Donald Trump.When he says, “Look at this guy; this guy is a killer; he’s the best; he’s the—he is an animal,” those are terms that are terms of affection and endearment when the president is referring to individuals in their particular craft or their particular trade.The other terms he uses are, “He is straight out of a movie,” or “He is central casting,” you will hear often.And so when you look at someone, whether it’s Gen. Milley, who’s the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, he’ll say, “Corey, this guy looks like central casting.”Well, he is central casting.He is a four-star chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, hence central casting.But he’s very— he’s very engaging; he’s very complimentary.

And then as he talks through the item or the issue that he wants to with these particular people, he brings them along usually at first by letting them know that he respects the work that they’ve done, even if they haven’t always treated him the way that he has wanted to be treated.

And other things powerful men have done that I’ve watched is there is always a kind of implied price to be paid if you don’t play the game the right way.Any of that?

Well, I’ll tell you, Michael, the president is much more forgiving than I am, and sometimes I get aggravated because, you know, as you recall and the viewership will recall, how many people were against him leading up into the election of 2016, and a number of those people ended up, rightfully or wrongfully, in his own administration, people who signed letters that said he wasn’t fit for office, people who disparaged him in public on a regular basis.And then, you know, you fast-forward three or four years, and these people in some capacities are working in the administration.And to me it drives me crazy, and I say, “Sir, don’t you remember what this person said about you?,” or “Sir, don’t you remember what she said about you?”And he says, “Ah, it’s water under the bridge.”

Donald Trump has this amazing ability to forgive people, maybe to a fault.I’m a person who takes it much more personally.And they weren’t attacking me; they weren’t saying that I was unfit for office.I was just at the time the functionary who was running the campaign, trying to respond to some of the criticisms.And so he has this amazing ability, but he’s really not—he’s really not somebody that I have seen who has threatened people that if you don’t do it the right way, there will be an outcome that would be unfavorable.I’ve never heard him implicitly say that.I’ve actually never even heard him allude to that.

That doesn’t mean he’s not frustrated if a particular story or narrative comes out which he disagrees with.And I think, to be fair to the president, he has said he’s OK with negative stories about him if they’re truthful, and I think by and large that is accurate.I think every president, including this one, gets concerned and worried about the off-the-record sources, the on-background sources, the “17 sources close to the president say” and none of them are ever named.I think that’s probably true with every president.But we’ve also seen unfortunately in this White House a number of people who work there who continue to leak stories to the media which are detrimental to the administration to a level we had never seen prior to this, whether it was private conversations between world leaders, the president and the prime minister of Australia, or others.That is a national security concern, and I think that’s the level of frustration, but I’ve never heard him be punitive directly or indirectly.

Trump in Manhattan

… Let’s talk about when he goes into New York to be a builder, one of the things we are fascinated by is New York is a sewer then.I mean, crime is up; the place is bankrupt; the buildings are all falling down.I mean, there’s white flight and working-class flight from the city—a million people, some people have said.But Donald Trump succeeds in his first big venture, and part of the way he succeeds is he gets a lot of help from government; he convinces them to help him with tax abatements and other things.Talk to me a little bit about how he succeeded in New York during that time and how much the government helped him.

Well, you know, I don’t have any firsthand knowledge because I wasn’t, obviously, there, but his first big project was the rebuilding of—on 42nd Street of what is the Grand Hyatt.He took an old hotel, and he went and said: “If you’re willing to help”—meaning to the state and the federal government and the city—“if you’re willing to help me with tax abatements, I’ll oversee this project.I’ll bring it in on time and under budget, but, you know, you have to have skin in the game.”

And I think that is probably true with every major real estate development that has transpired in New York City over the last 75 years.Donald Trump was smart and innovative as a businessman to say, “Hey, how can I spend the least amount of my personal money to achieve something really big?”And that first big project, which was the rebuilding of the Grand Hyatt on 42nd Street, really turned into a showpiece for the city.It sits on top of Grand Central Station.It was a dilapidated building, and the city had a vested interest financially of bringing an opportunity for people to have easy access to the subway right on top.And Donald Trump had a vision.

And he was a young guy at the time.Remember, he was in his late 30s, early 40s, and for someone to undertake a project like that with no level of certainty, he went out and smartly asked for government assistance.And what this president has said both as a candidate and then afterwards was, “As a businessman, I had an obligation to my family to pay the least amount of taxes, to have the most success, and to get the most help possible so that I could build my business for my employees and for my family.”And I think if you’re a business owner, you understand that.

Particularly right now, Michael, in the world of what we call PPP [Paycheck Protection Program], right, the money that the government has put in place to help small and big businesses alike get through this coronavirus pandemic, so the federal government has poured trillions of dollars into a program to say, “If you don’t lay off your employees, if you don’t put them out onto unemployment, we will help compensate you for their salaries up to a certain percentage.”And we’ve seen business after business, nonprofit after nonprofit, going after those funds, some at the consternation of taxpayers like myself when we see Harvard University getting $8 million of taxpayer money or the Los Angeles Lakers, a $4 billion sports franchise, receiving taxpayer funds to keep their organizations afloat.I think that is where the American people draw the line.But I think when you’re a business owner and you’re trying to develop something, whether it’s in a small town in New Hampshire where I live or it’s in the big city of New York, and it’s a multimillion-dollar project, you have to be able to make it cost-effective, and part of the way to do that is through tax abatements and tax incentives, which ends up being a win-win for the city and the developer.

So how do you think that time there influenced his view of government?

Well, I think he saw enormous amount of waste, fraud and abuse, and I think that’s what every business owner sees.And it’s really a shame.I think what you see is, and you can talk to a business owner in probably almost any realm of business right now who says it has traditionally been for the politically connected, the wealthy, those people who know how to pull the right lever or make the right phone call get the benefit while the small businesses don’t.I think PPP helped to level that playing field, because it was really designed for the small businesses, but I do think as Donald Trump was building that project on 42nd Street, later the 17 buildings on the West Side of New York, as well as the building overlooking Central Park, a massive project which was fought by Congressman Jerrold Nadler, who has represented that district for years, he said: “Hey, we’re trying to help people here.We’re trying to help people.We’re trying to build buildings.We’re trying to build affordable places for people to live in some cases and in some cases high-end units so people with high net worth can come into the city.We need some assistance.”

And I think you’ve seen that, you know, across the country, but I think he is seeing waste, fraud and abuse in those developments, and said, “As a president, I’m going to work to cut the regulations which business owners face,” so that they don’t have to deal with what he dealt with.

Trump’s Early Political Moves

In ’87 he comes to your home state of New Hampshire, dipping a toe a little bit in the water.Roger Stone helps him get it together.He comes in the helicopter with “Trump” painted on the side, the treatment.And he spends a day there.We’ve looked at all the stock footage and listened to all the things that he said.How serious was he?Was it really a first step in the direction of where he ended up in 2016?

Well, you know, Michael, it’s amazing, because that speech that he gave at the Portsmouth Rotary, which was held outside, as you know, would have blown the roof off the place.And the consistency that Donald Trump spoke to in 1987, and you fast-forward to when Donald Trump first came to New Hampshire in April of 2014 for the, what we called then the Freedom Summits—Citizens United and Americans for Prosperity joined to bring Donald Trump in—on the issues of trade, it was almost identical.Now, the players were different.In 1987 he was talking about Japan ripping us off, and in 2014, before he even announced he was running for president, he was talking about China ripping us off, but the message has been unbelievably consistent.

And if you go back and you look at the media coverage from his first trip in ’87 and the people who drafted the “Draft Donald Trump” movement, he said almost the same thing I heard during the campaign, which was: “Hey, why can politicians do it better than me?Why do they get the opportunity to run the government?Why don’t we think that businesspeople can do this?”And when we have looked back at our history, whether it’s H. Ross Perot, who received 19% of the vote when he ran for office, or other successful businesspeople—Michael Bloomberg, Donald Trump, Tom Steyer, right?—they have made the argument that being in business has been a better model to run the government than actually coming through and being a city councilor, a state representative, a state senator, a congressman, a senator, a governor, and then going into the presidency.

And so, you know, I think there is a level of people out there who want to see and enjoy the fact that a businessman is attempting to run the country like a business.Now, granted, it’s the biggest business in the history of the world, and there are so many moving parts that no one individual, no one CEO can oversee it all, but I think the American people back in 1987, when Donald Trump was here talking about it and back in 2014, when he was back in New Hampshire talking about it, enjoyed the fact that a businessman who had enormous amount of success wanted to bring that success to the federal government.

And you see—you do see steps along the way where exactly what you’re talking about is happening.It’s almost like what he’s doing is he is practicing arguments, things that will work, things that will touch a nerve.What other things like that did he do?I know he listened to lots of talk radio back in the day.He took out that ad about the Central Park Five.There were just hints; we have an old piece of stock footage where he is talking to Rona Barrett, and he says, “Well, I couldn’t run now because it’s—I want to say things that are too strong, and America’s not ready for somebody like that.”So you do see it happening, don’t you?

He did a number of things, Michael.You have to remember, from that initial foray up in New Hampshire in 1987 to going on Oprah Winfrey or David Letterman and talking politics and staying in the national dialogue, again, you can go back and look at the footage of what he said to David Letterman on the Tonight Show at the time—on his show at the time.You can go back and you can see the interview that he did with Oprah Winfrey when he is talking about trade and the American—we’re getting ripped off by countries around, that we had bad negotiators.And then you look, as he continued to increase his profile over the years, he continued to stay in the media spotlight, partially by doing something that became a hallmark of the Trump campaign in 2016, the phoner, the phoner, right?You call it in, and you sit in your pajamas, and you make 15 phone calls into the networks, and every single one carries you live.

He really fundamentally transformed the way political candidates communicate with people by doing that.And I can recall sitting in the Trump Hotel in Chicago when we were supposed to be having a rally and the city was closed down in protest, and we were sitting in the hotel, and he said, “Let’s start calling the networks.”And all of a sudden, he called ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, Fox News, Fox Business, MSNBC, and all of a sudden, what was supposed to be a campaign rally in downtown Chicago became an infomercial of Donald Trump calling in to every major network with an unlimited amount of time and unlimited access to the people who were watching TV.So he did that.

And don’t forget, leading up to his campaign, he had a standing television phone interview every Monday on Fox and Friends at 7:10 a.m., and that was on for years.And that type of media coupled with the radio interviews he was doing with hard-hitting reporters, and I point directly to people like Hugh Hewitt and Stephen K. Bannon, people who didn’t give him a pass on issues, but allowed him to learn, allowed him to listen to what the conversation was.

And look, I’m not here to justify whatever Bill O’Reilly did in his private life, but I can tell you as an interviewer, he never gave Donald Trump a pass.Bill O’Reilly was probably one of the hardest interviewers to Donald Trump throughout the presidential cycle, and I believe because of those interviews, Donald Trump was better prepared to debate Hillary Clinton in the general election because of those interviews.And, you know, we always said, “Boy, that was a tough one with O’Reilly,” but Donald Trump always rose to that.He always got up for that.

And I can think of a number of interviews with Hugh Hewitt, a true professional and someone who understands the minutiae of specific issues and wasn’t shy about asking candidate Trump about those, we would walk out of some of those interviews and say, “Why did we just do that?”And Trump would say: “It’s OK.Don’t worry about it.It’s no problem. I got it.”And he would continue to learn in real time, and then to your point, test some of those messages on the stump and in additional interviews as we went forward, all leading to the culmination of what I believed was the day he won the presidential campaign, which was the second debate against Hillary Clinton in October, Billy Bush in St. Louis.

Trump as Master of Image

So it’s really true. ....He’s testing.He’s moving through it.He learns something with the all the celebrity stuff around Ivana and the divorce, which is there’s no such thing as bad press.I mean, in a way, your name is out there.That’s what really mattered to him then, and maybe he was waiting for a time in politics to come along when the same would be true about political.It doesn’t matter what you say; it doesn’t matter what happens.It’s all about name recognition and knowing your base.

I think part of it is Donald Trump is a master when it comes to images, right?He understands the optics.I mean, from the golden escalator ride, coming down to launch the campaign, which everybody told him—not everybody, but a number of people told him this would be terrible optics; what if you fell coming down the escalator, whatever it was—I mean, it has become the most well-known and viewed escalator ride in the history of the planet—to using his wealth to create the backdrop for a number of our rallies, and specifically that beautiful 757 airplane that he had.And we pulled up to an airport, and all of a sudden Donald Trump has arrived, and it looked presidential.He would come out those front steps, and it would look like he was stepping off of the equivalent of an Air Force One, and we would do these airplane rallies.

And it wasn’t so much what Donald Trump was saying, but it was people looking at him through the lens of the television camera, which he understood and understands better than anybody from his time producing successful television shows, and people may not necessarily be listening to what you have to say, but they are very visual learners, and they see Donald Trump.

Remember, when we came down that escalator, Donald Trump was on a stage with a single podium, American flags draped behind him with a blue carpet, he had a white shirt on, a blue suit with a red tie.Those things were not by mistake.Those were optically designed to demonstrate that he looks like he’s a president. ...

Donald Trump always had flags.We were always cognizant of what the view was.And so, for a candidate who understood the visual-learning component and understood the component of name ID and driving a media narrative, he was by far the best.And if you would have told me that a 70-year-old white guy was going to dominate the world of presidential politics via something called Twitter, I would have said, “There is no chance.”And that’s exactly what he did.

Every time there was a narrative that he wanted to discuss, we tweeted it, and the world started to watch his Twitter account.And now through his social media platforms, he has hundreds of millions of followers almost, and it’s amazing.

The Power of 'The Apprentice'

This sets the stage perfectly for The Apprentice, of course, which is, you think about the visual there, he looks like the biggest mogul ever created behind this bench.He’s in authority and control; he’s firing people; he’s managing the situation.And I assume he’s also paying real close attention to the audience and his ratings and his numbers.You don’t stay on top 14 years without having a real ear for what’s working in the reality TV structure.So let’s talk a while about the reality-TV show The Apprentice.How much good did it do him, Corey, to be the star of that program?

Well, it’s enormous.Number one—he’s disclosed this—he made $350 million as the executive producer of The Apprentice, which, you know, I don’t know about you, it’s pretty good to me.Just that alone would be worth my time doing it for 14 years.But in addition to that, Michael, what it did was that it piped him into every American household in the country.It was the number one-rated television show when it debuted, and then the staying power under the leadership of Donald Trump was a testament to his personality, to revising the show from what was first going to be individuals who were vying for a job in the Trump Organization, like Bill Rancic, to celebrities who want to come on and help with charity, guys like, you know—there are so many celebrities who have been on the show and been very successful.Piers Morgan was one of those people.And it allowed him to cut across demographics, socioeconomic status.It was—at some level, the concept was so simple and so brilliant that every person said: “I want to be the apprentice.I want the opportunity to go and earn $250,000 a year,” which I think is what the salary was when it came out, which is an enormous amount of money, “and work under the leadership of Donald Trump.Oh, and by the way, I’ll be on television.”

And so they had these massive casting calls.And, you know, Donald Trump went up against at the time some of the biggest shows.The Amazing Race, as an example, was a very successful television show on another rival network.But Donald Trump, through, as you know, Jeff Zucker who at the time was the NBC executive who greenlit this project who is now the president of CNN Worldwide, and that’s a whole different relationship, understood that by bringing the opportunity for people to win to the American people, it’s unparalleled.And what did it get to do?He got to show off his success; he got to show off his business acumen; he got to show that he was tough.

Donald Trump and only Donald Trump is the one that came up with the words “You’re fired,” OK?That was never written into the script.That was extemporaneous.And once he said that the first time, it just fit.And there have been a number of spinoffs from that television show: Martha Stewart tried to do it; Arnold Schwarzenegger, a number of people.None of them could pull it off, partially because what the American people had seen in his debate performances is Donald Trump is very witty; he’s very fast on his feet; he’s very witty.And they saw that in The Apprentice, and they saw it on the presidential campaign.And so his tenure at The Apprentice raised his profile outside of just the city of New York and a person who was on the Forbes 400 billionaire list to a household name where people were vying to be associated with him and the hit television show.

Trump and Birtherism

… He takes that celebrity, even while it’s happening, and starts to move into the political world with the birther issue, when he sort of becomes the face, the voice and really the driving force between what gives it legitimacy if that’s the right word for it.A lot of people are suddenly paying attention.He can get on The View; he can get on other forums to talk about it.Tell me a little bit about that transition to politics through the birther issue.

You know, it was an issue where my guess—and again, I wasn’t there at the time—that Roger Stone probably was advising then Mr. Trump, “If you want to stay relevant, you want to stay top of mind, you want to potentially pursue a run for president,” which, you know, for 30 years Roger had been encouraging him to do that, was, “Hey, this is an issue that plays to the far right of the conservative base.”And I don’t think Donald Trump at the time was considering running as a Republican, a Democrat or Independent.As a matter of fact, we know in 1992, during the Ross Perot years, shortly thereafter, Donald Trump actually changed his party registration to what was called the Independent Party in New York, which was the Reform Party.And so he did that because Ross Perot was really running on a single issue at the time, right, which was term limits, and Donald Trump was very much in favor of that.

But I think he received counsel from individuals who told him that if he went after Barack Obama for what they believed, him not being born in the United States, it would generate enormous amounts of media attention, which of course it did.And if you believe the axiom, which I think some people do, as you’ve alluded to, all media is good media, there is no such thing as bad press, then this was an opportunity for him to continue to stay top of mind through the networks and continue for them to come to him for comment where he really wouldn’t have had a platform to do so otherwise.

Trump as Political Commentator

So that’s around the time that he starts—I guess that is.That’s around the time that he starts doing the Fox morning, Monday show, right?

That’s right.

It’s true that he starts to become a political commentator more than just a guy who pops up now and then with something, with a regular view of the world.And I would assume that his issues are starting—his perspective on issues is starting to form as well at the time.And I guess that’s when he’s—I’m not sure; you can tell me—he decides to become sort of a conservative Republican, not a RINO [Republican in Name Only], certainly not a—

You know, Michael, I don’t know if that’s the right term.I think he becomes a pragmatist, OK?He’s willing to touch on issues that members of the Republican Party are not, and specifically the issue of trade.Look, you can go back and look at what Donald Trump said in April of 2014 in New Hampshire.He said it’s not free trade; it’s fair trade.And for too long—and look, I’d be happy to bring all of the newspaper articles, including The Wall Street Journal editorial—when Mitt Romney ran for president in 2012, he came out with a 59-point plan for our relationship with China, and The Wall Street Journal, which is supposed to be a bastion of conservatism, I guess, in the world of the media, said: “This is outrageous.We can’t go after China to reform their abuses, to stop their stealing of intellectual property, etc., etc.We must coordinate our efforts so that we can couple our economies together, and Congress will deal with this.”And so in the third presidential debate of 2012, Mitt Romney lost that debate, in my opinion, to Barack Obama because he backed off.And what he said at the time, and I’m paraphrasing, is: “We don’t need an enemy in China.We need to be working together.”

Fast-forward four years, Donald Trump comes out and says: “China is our enemy.They’ve manipulated our currency.”We bring on a guy by the name of Peter Navarro, who is a China hawk, to the campaign.We talk to people like Michael Pillsbury, who has written extensively on the threat of China.And The Wall Street Journal runs the exact same editorial, almost verbatim—I mean, they changed a few lines—against Donald Trump.The difference is, Donald Trump doesn’t back down; he doubles down, and he calls out the editorial, and he calls out China, and he does it on Fox News on one of those Monday morning meetings, and he says: “Hey, these guys are blaming me.I’m the only person sounding the alarm here.I’m the only person telling you that we need to decouple of economy from China.”And that was always the third rail of American Republican Party politics, which was the issue of fair trade, and Trump said: “No more.It’s not fair trade.It’s not free trade; it’s fair trade.”

And look, this president raised the issue of the TPP, the Trans-Pacific Partnership, and said it was a disastrous trade deal.He raised the issue of NAFTA and said: “Look, I’m going to get out of this thing.I’m going to do something that actually helps the United States.”And something else he said, which was very unpopular at the time—and, Michael, you know this; it’s the number one issue probably that helped propel him to the presidency—was, “We’re going to close the borders.We’re going to have an immigration issue which is fair to the United States, merit-based immigration, with a big, beautiful wall with a door in it, and we’re going to know who is coming in.”

And what the Republican Party said for 20 years was, “Oh, no, no.”And if you remember the after-action report from the 2012 election that the Republican National Committee implemented and had conclusions from it said, “We must be more inclusive of Hispanics and Asians and Mexicans, and we must embrace this notion of open borders.”And Donald Trump said: “No way, OK?We’re going to put America first.”

Now, people might see that as isolationism.They can see it any way they want.But to the American people who for too long had seen their jobs shipped overseas, they wanted some help.And if you remember in the campaign in 2016, Donald Trump went to Monessen, Pennsylvania.It’s an old town that was blown out by—it used to be a coal town and a steel town, and basically, after NAFTA came into place, their population went from about 16,500 to just under 7,000 people, OK, and Donald Trump went there in 2016 and said, “We’re going to bring these jobs back home.”And it’s one of those towns that was directly impacted by NAFTA, by taking those factories that used to produce coke and steel and ship it to the world, they shuttered, and people lost their homes; they lost their jobs; they were told that they were low-skilled workers and they need to retool and learn how to use the computers.And so when Donald Trump came in, he said, “We’re going to renegotiate these bad trade deals,” that was completely antithetical to what the Republican Party had been saying for 20 years.And those issues of immigration and trade really set him apart in that 16-person field in the primary and then was a clear dichotomy with Hillary Clinton.

The 'Access Hollywood' Tape

Let’s talk a little bit about Access Hollywood, another true test of his ability in a crisis, which is a lot of what our film is about for both of these men.Take me there. Tell me.I mean, you know, we’ve covered that story before, but I’m interested in your response.Did he talk to you?Did you talk to him?Were you—what were you watching when it happened?What did you think was necessary, and how do you rate what occurred?

Well, you know, hindsight gives us the privilege of being much more knowledgeable today than we were at the time, but when the crisis occurred, it was a Friday afternoon, as you remember, and Hope Hicks was notified by the media that they had what we were originally had was a transcript of Donald Trump having a conversation with Billy Bush that said a number of incendiary things, and they were going to publish the transcript.So we said, “OK, send it over to us.”And the original transcript which we received was read to then-Mr. Trump, and he said, “It doesn’t sound like me.”He didn’t say yes or no.He said, “Some of the things on this transcript don’t sound like something that I would say.”

And so, you know, about 15 minutes later went by, and the video rolled in, and the story is well-known, but at the time, the candidate was in the middle of debate prep for what was going to be the second presidential debate, and a number of people stepped out of the room of the 25th floor of Trump Tower to review the video prior to sharing it with then-Mr. Trump, and it was determined that yes, this was him; yes, he said these things.It seemed to be that the video was authentic.We need to bring it to his attention; we need to come up with a strategy immediately on what we’re going to say.

And so I think that what we saw from Donald Trump was an apology for things that he said.I believe that it looked like a hostage video, and I’ve said that very—numerous times that they waited so long to put this out that it looked like a hostage video.There were a number of Republican Party officials, both elected officials and senior party leadership members, who were bailing on the president, then-Mr. Trump, saying: “The race is over.Let’s get out of here.Let’s focus on the U.S. Senate and the House races and try and salvage that, because he’s just lost this election.”

And, you know, it was really the next day, after he released the hostage video—if you remember the campaign was notified sometime around probably 2:00 or 3:00 in the afternoon, maybe even a little later, 3:30.The hostage video, which I affectionately refer to it as, which is Donald Trump to camera giving a speech to the American people, didn’t come out until after the 11:00 news was almost over.And so it was about a seven-hour window there trying to come up with a solution of what it would be, and obviously there were differing opinions of what it should be.

And after the solution was done, the next day, there was a meeting on the 66th floor of Trump Tower in the president, then-Mr. Trump’s apartment.Rudy Giuliani was there, Kellyanne Conway, a number of other people.It’s famously told that Reince had come back up from D.C. to join the meeting, and Reince Priebus, at the time the RNC chief, the RNC chairman, basically said, “You need to get out of the race.”And Donald Trump said, “No.”He said: “I’m not getting out of the race.Not only am I not getting out of the race.I’m going to go and run; I’m going to win.”

And to be able to have that type of confidence, maybe it goes back to Reverend Peale, the power of positive thinking.I don’t know if anybody in that room really thought that that was the case at the time, but Steve Bannon said—the president went around, Mr. Trump went around the room and said: “Hey, what do you think?What do you think? What do you think?What percentage do you give me of winning?”And to his credit, Steve Bannon said, “100%.”And Trump said: “No, it’s not 100%.What percentage do you really give?”And Steve Bannon said, “It’s 100% you’re going to win, and now here is how we’re going to do it.”And Steve Bannon, for all of his faults and, you know, different uniqueness, had the foresight to see this as an opportunity that allowed Donald Trump to not to have to play the standard Republican Party politics game.

If you remember immediately following that, Paul Ryan disinvited then-candidate Trump out to Wisconsin.Donald Trump then put out a tweet that said the shackles are off, which was a pretty amazing thing to put out.And he then proceeded to leave it all on the court with Hillary Clinton in that debate.And I remember fielding a number of calls from elected officials from around the country who said: “We have to walk away from him.We can’t be associated with this. This is terrible.”And my response to those individuals on that Saturday and Sunday was: “Let us get through this debate.If he doesn’t win the debate, you’re welcome to withdraw your endorsement.You’re welcome to go and say that Donald Trump isn’t the right candidate to represent you.”But he had such a commanding performance, I think, in a 48-hour window, just like he had done so many other times throughout the campaign—and this was by far, by far the largest scandal, the largest crisis that the campaign had to come to.Part of it was because of the timing, and part of it was because of the severity of it.He had 100% positive thinking.

And he delivered, which was an enormously difficult thing to do in that second debate.And after that, I think we saw the path forward and worked that much harder to ensure that he was going to win.

Of course you—what also happened was the women accusers of Bill Clinton who came to a press conference right before the debate.

Genius, Literally a stroke of genius.Michael, nobody else would have had the wherewithal, tenacity or what we call in Spanish the cajones to do it, OK?This guy didn’t blink for a second.And nobody knew about it.To be very clear, OK, this was a brainchild of Stephen Bannon, so anybody who tells you otherwise is just not being truthful.And these women who had flown in, there were four of them, all accusers of either Bill Clinton or someone who was directly impacted by Hillary Clinton’s legal representation—had largely been out of sight for the campaign.And I remember that—I believe it was Paula Jones was on the same airplane flying to St. Louis as Chris Matthews, and so she was in a baseball hat and a T-shirt trying to hide on the plane, because she didn’t want to be recognized.So the reason she attended the press conference in that same outfit was because she didn’t have time to change.She was supposed to change and be in her attire ready to do the press conference.

And if you remember what occurred, and I remember it very vividly, Donald Trump was in his suite prior to the debate finalizing strategy.Reince Priebus was in the room, Steve Bannon, Dave Bosse, Kellyanne Conway, and a few others, and Steve Bannon turned to then-Mr. Trump and said, “Hey, let’s go.”And Reince said, “Where are you guys going?”And Steve said, “We’ve got a couple donors we have to see right before the debate.”And he said: “Reince, you stay here.We’ll be right back.”

And what Hope Hicks had notified the media of was that there was going to be a spray, an opportunity for the last debate prep to be viewed by the media.They could come in; they were given instructions that they could take photos and video, but there would be no questions.That’s the way it was posed to the media.Those were the ground rules.And so as Donald Trump sat at that table, when we opened the doors the media was assuming, because they were told that this was the last debate prep prior to the debate, that they could take a photo spray and share that in the debate-prep session, but there would be no questions, and they walked in, and I believe, not to be disparaging to members of the media, but most of the 25- or 30-year-olds who were covering the campaign at the time didn’t recognize any of these individuals, particularly because some of these incidences occurred 25 years ago in the late ’90s, mid- to late ’90s.And I believe it was John Santucci who at the time was the ABC correspondent for—designated to the Trump campaign, he finally recognized Paula Jones, and out loud he said, “Oh, s---.”That was his response.And then of course the media started to ask questions, and the litany of responses was just crushing from the women.And they were wholly unprepared.I believe it threw Hillary Clinton off of her game.

We told the members of the Presidential Debate Commission we were going to seat these four women in the president’s family box, which was located directly next to Bill Clinton and Chelsea Clinton.They vehemently protested, threatened to cancel the debate, which we said: “Good luck, OK?You’re going to cancel the debate because of where we seat people?”And if you recall, what ended up happening was after that press spray, where these women asked the media to go and talk to Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton about their responses to what they’d been accused of, there’s a very famous photograph of these women walking out to the front of the debate stage, walking by Bill Clinton, sitting down over to the Clinton side, and Bill Clinton is facing forward, where his wife is on the stage, and his eyes are 90 degrees in the opposite direction looking at these women.And that encapsulated, I believe, what probably was not the best debate-prep session for the Clintons going into that debate.

What does that episode tell you about President Trump?

It tells me he is willing to do whatever it took to win.Look, politics, sports, so many other things, it’s a mental game, right?Getting in your opponent’s head was so important.We saw that in the primaries, where we used to say, “The best space that we rented was in between the ears of Jeb Bush.”Every day we were in Jeb’s head, and he didn’t know what to do with it.And so when you are in your opponent’s head, you’re winning, because they’re always thinking: “What’s he going to do next?What are they going to do next?What are they going to say?”Nobody else, as I said, would have had the wherewithal or the strength to bring those women forward…

The Crisis Presidency

So let’s get him elected.He’s elected.And it is, I’ve said to you, the crisis presidency in lots of ways just in terms of the things that were happening.You have—you have the Mike Flynn moment.You have the dossier.You have Comey and the Comey firing.You have Mueller.You have “the press,” the Democrats.And for three years it is a battle in Washington.

Under siege, every day under siege, every day, unlike probably any administration in history, less the second term of the Nixon administration.I don’t think there is a parallel anywhere to what this president has had to endure from all of those things you outlined, plus others, plus attempting to denuclearize the Korean Peninsula; being at war with—not at war but on the verge of a potential war with North Korea; trying to resolve the crisis in China; trying to get our allies to pay their fair share to NATO, right, to really being in some cases a man on an island.It has been a gauntlet that he has had to go through.All the while he has delivered, up until the coronavirus pandemic, the greatest economy the world had ever seen, with the lowest unemployment rates for every demographic, whether it’s Asian American, African American, Hispanic American, women.He had more people working before the coronavirus pandemic than at any time in our nation’s history.We had historically low unemployment rates, all while we were going through these issues, whether it was the false dossier; the firing of James Comey; the Mueller probe; you know, the dismissal of Jeff Sessions; the FISA warrants which continued to be signed against this president and members of his team while he was a sitting president of the United States.I mean, it was an onslaught, and it really wasn’t, in my opinion, until the U.S. Senate voted for acquittal on the two impeachment charges that Donald Trump finally had a small air of breathability.And only after that, only after that, within weeks if not a few short months, is when the coronavirus pandemic hit.

The fascinating thing about his presidency is he was able to—I mean, I guess the question is how did he survive that onslaught? …

You know, Michael, I can tell you, I’ve had the privilege to know what we call the body men, the men who usually stand outside the president’s room in the morning, walk with him down to the Oval Office, and they’ve all told me the same thing, all of them.So from Keith Schiller who spent 20 years as his body guy to Jordan Karem to Nick [Luna], who has the job now, they said the president wakes up and almost always asks the same question: “Who are we fighting for today?”That’s his mentality: “Who are we fighting for today?”And to wake up and have that inner fire, to want to fight every day—and hey, Michael, I’m a fighter.I can fight; I’m very good at it; I love to fight, OK?This guy has a different gear; he has a different ability than normal human beings.

Number one, he doesn’t sleep often.We know that because we see his Twitter feed in real time.Number two, he has zero desire to ever quit, and he just keeps going.And he has, since he’s been in Washington, taken advice from people who have steered him in the wrong direction.There were a number of people who told him that he should do X or Y, and sometimes he’s taken that advice, and sometimes I think it has been wrong.That being said, when everyone told him he had to put together a team like Bill Clinton had in the late ’90s to fend off impeachment, he said: “I’m not doing that.That’s going to make me look guilty.”And he didn’t bring in 50 outside people, right, like Bill Clinton did, running out of the Eisenhower Executive Office Building.He by and large used Rudy Giuliani and a small cadre of outside advisers to give him advice and counsel and go on TV and push back, but a lot of it he did himself. …

And so part of it is his ability to just keep going, to go through the mud, and the tenacity to say, “I’m not going to quit.”And look, the president has said to me a hundred times: “What am I going to [do], sit in the corner and suck my thumb?I’m not going to do that.I’m going to keep fighting.”And that’s what he does.And I think the American people, even if you disagree with his politics—and I know a lot of people do—they respect the fact that he is a fighter and that he may be the greatest comeback story ever.

For sure, if he does come back.Corona; the unrest in the streets after the George Floyd death, murder; the military backing away from him, some of them, certainly [James] Mattis, maybe [Mark] Milley, secretary of defense pulling back.What else is on the list?Bolton; the niece.When does he run out of steam?

I don’t know.I don’t think—I don’t think he does.It’s amazing.You know, in the 2016 campaign, Michael, I had the privilege to be able to schedule him at almost 100% discretion.And I would say, “Sir, I just need you to be in the lobby at 6:00 a.m. tomorrow morning.”He would say, “Where are we going?”I’d say, “Don’t worry.”And we would go and do three or four or five stops a day every day, and we’d fly back to New York almost every night.Then the next day he’d say, “Corey, what time we start?”And I’d say, “7:00 a.m. in the lobby, sir.”And he would be down at 7:00 a.m., and then we would be out doing it again.

He has this ability to just outwork his opponents, and I think in 2016, that was a significant factor of his success, which was people saw this person as someone who wanted the job, someone who was just never going to stop working.And, you know, at the advanced age of 74 years old now, nobody is questioning Donald Trump’s stamina.The media are not writing reports that he’s sleeping until noon all day, right?The media is saying: “Please slow down.You take these foreign trips.You stay up all night on the flight over there.You stay up when you get there for 22 hours.You get back on the plane; we fly back.Can you please slow down?We’re not used to this pace.”And these are 20- and 30-year-old young journalists.

And so I think that is a big part of it, is he just has an energy and a way about him that never lets him slow down, that I don’t think he’s the type of person who sits back and says: “Wow, look at all that I have accomplished.I am so happy with my life.”His answer is: “What else can we get done? Right?What is the next project?What is the next thing I can be doing?What else can I achieve?What else can we fight for?”And I think that is a very, very special person who can do that.That’s not to say other people don’t have that same ability, but he has it in ways I’ve never seen, and I’ve had the opportunity to meet a number of successful people.And you can define success any way you want, whether it’s financial success or business success or whatever it is.I’ve never seen somebody like him who just has a drive that never ends.

The Choice Between Biden and Trump

So now the question, the last question I always ask, every four years now since 2000 basically, what’s the choice?

Well, the choice is clear.The choice is we can reelect a person who in three years created our greatest economy ever, rebuilt our military, put our enemies on notice, like Bashar al-Assad, when he used chemical weapons against young children and innocent women.We can make sure that we have somebody who tells our allies, our friends, “You will pay your fair share, because America cannot be the policemen of the world anymore.”Or we can move in a different direction.And this—this election is unlike many others.You know, in 2012 Mitt Romney and Barack Obama were much more similar than they were apart, and the same can be said for John McCain.He and Barack Obama, while there were differences, by and large they were truly, in a philosophical side, very similar on a number of their policies.But Joe Biden and Donald Trump are fundamentally opposite.

Joe Biden for 50 years as a D.C. creature has not seen a program that the United States hasn’t wanted to get away from China with.Joe Biden had opportunities for 36 years in the Senate and eight years as the vice president to do enormous good for enormous amounts of people, and by and large he failed.And what we’ve seen under the years of Biden is his family, not just his son but his brother, have profiteered enormously off of the Biden last name.And so the defeatist attitude of Joe Biden and Barack Obama, when they told us some of the jobs are never coming back; you need a magic wand to bring them back—and hey, you know, you remember this: When Barack Obama went to Elkhart, Indiana, in a town hall, and they said, “When are our jobs coming back?,” and he said, “These jobs aren’t coming back,” Donald Trump has never said, “We’re not bringing our jobs back.”And so the Obama-Biden administration has been one of defeatism, one of the opportunity to say, “America is apologetic for her success.”And I believe Donald Trump is the president who says: “It’s America first.It’s not America alone, but it’s America first.”And when you go out to the heartland, and you go out to places where Americans respect and honor the flag, where they’re proud of our military men and women who put their lives on the line every day, where they are proud to have police officers patrol their streets and answer the calls of 911 when they’re asked, when you get to those communities, Donald Trump wins every time.

Is it going to be an easy election?Of course not.Did I hope that where we were in March, with a booming economy, unbelievably low unemployment rate, the renegotiated bad trade deals, we would have been on the glide path?Sure, every political operative hoped that.But now we’re in the comeback story, and if Donald Trump can come back and bring the economy back and bring the stock market back from where it was to where it can go, then I think the question is very simply asked: Does he deserve four more years in office?And I think by every indicator the answer is yes. …

Trump on Law and Order

When he tweets out law and order and he talks about dominating the streets in the last few months, we’re trying to understand sort of where he gets the views that he has, where he gets the way that he operates from.Where do you think that that part of his response comes from?What is it about him and his life story that led to—that led to that view of what you do in a crisis situation like we’ve had the last few months?

Well, you know, I think if you look at it this president has never been driven by public polling data on the issues he’s taken.However, 58% of the American people are against this notion of defunding the police, you know, and I have to say in full disclosure, I served four years as a police officer here in the state of New Hampshire, and so I stand with what we call the thin blue line.It’s those group of people who stand on the line between good and evil.And I believe the president fundamentally thinks in his heart of hearts that law and order is the right thing to do.And no one wants to talk about it, and they’ve criticized the president so many times for his rhetoric and the way he said things and that he has ostracized and alienated suburban women, particularly suburban educated women.No one is talking about that right now, because the issue of personal safety is of paramount importance not just to suburban women but to every American.

And I think—no, I know that when you go out and you ask people on the street, “If you have a problem, do you call antifa, or do you call the police?When you call 911, do you expect a response?,” 250 million phone calls into 911 last year alone, and all of those were responded to, I believe, in some way, shape, or form.And so this president believes in law and order; he believes in a strong national security and military; and he believes in protecting people in the country, whether it’s through a wall on the southern border or through supporting the police officers who risk their lives every day.And what happened to George Floyd was a horrific tragedy, and that police officer needs to be held accountable for it, and he will be, and so will the accomplices who answered that call as well.And they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.But the notion that we can support marauders going through the streets and destroying businesses and throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails in a civilized society is I think unfathomable to most Americans, and I think the president comes down on that side as well.

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