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David Horowitz

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David Horowitz

Activist and Writer

David Horowitz is a conservative activist and writer who is widely considered a mentor to Stephen Miller, a senior policy adviser to President Donald Trump.

This interview was conducted by FRONTLINE’s Jim Gilmore on July 22, 2019. It has been edited for clarity and length.

This interview appears in:

Zero Tolerance

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So you’ve known Stephen for quite a few years.You met him, I guess, when he was in high school, around 17 or 18.So describe the young Stephen Miller.What was he like?

Steve Miller is obviously a very brilliant young man, and he was when I met him when he was about 18.He comes from a liberal Santa Monica family.And I think that his values are still consonant with liberalism as I knew it when I was younger.Unfortunately, the Democratic Party and the so-called liberals have moved so far to the left that they actively want to suppress free speech in people like Stephen and me.

And I met him over—he was protesting—this was right after 9/11.There was a national effort and resolve, the national resolve, after 9/11.People agreed that the Pledge of Allegiance would be said every day in schools, was just a rallying around the flag because of this horrific attack.And of course, Santa Monica, they call it kind of Red Monica.It’s a very left-wing city… And Stephen stood up against that, and he went on—I guess I heard him on The Larry Elder Show.

And I saw this is an incredibly courageous young man.First of all, he’s standing up for his country under attack, but he had so many prospects.I mean, I could see right away when I talked to him that he’s a very, very smart young man, and here he was jeopardizing all his chances, all his opportunities because he was antagonizing his left-wing teachers, and they’re very vindictive.So that really impressed me about Stephen.

What about him?I mean, he seems to be—enjoy the fact of the battle.He enjoys the battle; he’s in your face—

You have to. You have to.

Explain.

Well, I mean, one of the problems—well, first of all, as I said, the Democratic Party has become a very vicious, I would say, totalitarian party.If you stand up to them, they call you a racist first thing and smear you.God knows I’ve been smeared enough by them, and they twist what you said.But it’s very, very ugly.

When I was a radical at Berkeley in the early ’60s, I would have described myself as a Marxist revolutionary.I always wanted to hear what the opposition had to say, what the conservative— because I thought it would make me a better revolutionary.Today’s left wants to shut down the opposition, doesn’t want to hear what they have to say and wants to suppress it so other people don’t. …

So when Miller was—you were talking to Miller to begin with, I know that he views you as a mentor early on.

Yeah, I made him the head of our—what did we call it?—Terrorism Awareness Project, post-9/11.And also, when he went to Duke, he was the head of our Students for Academic Freedom chapter, and our goal was just that there be two sides to a conversation and that the students would get required readings from both left and right.That was it.

He was very courageous, again, at Duke when they tried to lynch the lacrosse team because they were white and probably wealthy, and they ruined those kids’ lives for a year and forced them into incredible court battles.… And Stephen was the voice on campus.Again, here he is in the midst of the fray.Here, all his professors are supporting the racist attacks on the lacrosse team, and he stood up and became notorious for doing it.When he graduated—

Hold on a second.We’ll go step by step so we get good detail.Let me bring you back to high school first.When you met him, were you advising him?And also, what did he look like?What was his demeanor?I mean, he was a—

He hasn’t changed that much.Well, of course, when he’s dealing with me he doesn’t have to be forceful; it’s when he’s dealing with opponents.But, you know, we hit it off.You know, I’ve written so much, and, you know, I have this internet magazine, so he knew what I thought.And he was very happy to take up these battles to make people aware of the terrorist threat and to try to restore some semblance of liberalism to universities…

Stephen Miller at Duke University

… Take me to the—

And that’s the great thing about Stephen Miller.You can’t intimidate him, and he’s smarter than you.So I thought what he did at Duke was courageous.He did invite me to speak.It was actually one of the largest events.He did it single-handedly, I know that. …

It’s very distracting when you get a lot of heckling like that out of an audience.But a lot of people in the audience told them to shut up.And that was healthy and good. …

And Stephen got some guff from the audience, but he seemed to enjoy it.

Well, when you’re—you know, when you’re in a war, you’ve got to kind of enjoy the battle.Lot of people—I think most people are pretty sensible and try to stay out of the conflict.I was born to it.I was raised by Communist parents at the height of the Cold War.My whole life has been embattled.And Stephen, you know, by the time he got to Duke, he had been through a lot of fire.

He became pretty well known, even in high school.He was on the radio.

Oh, yeah.He went on the radio and complained about the failure to honor the flag… He was a regular on The Larry Elder Show.When Stephen graduated, he asked—he was looking for a job, and I recommended him, successfully, to [Rep.] Michele Bachmann and then [legal scholar] John Shattuck and then Jeff Sessions.And of course I gave him the highest recommendation possible.Those people, but particularly Jeff Sessions respected me.So that’s how he got where he got.

… Talk for a little bit about the Terrorism Awareness Project—why did you found it, why was he president of the group at Duke, and why he thought that was so essential.

Well, first of all, he was my only person, student I knew at Duke.That’s why he was for Students for Academic Freedom.The Terrorism Awareness Project was because—and here I hold the Bush administration culpable.I mean, it’s a difficult problem.This is global terrorism of the most barbaric kind, but it’s dressed up as a religion, and Americans have built in a tolerance, although it’s a one-sided tolerance if you’re on the left.The left tolerates Muslims and Muslim radicals, but Christians are their enemies.The left is so screwed up these days.

Anyway, yeah, he was interested in the Terrorism Awareness Project.All we did, we made a video, for example—I forget.It wasn’t a video; it was a flash—I forget what it was technically, but it was just a three-minute TV kind of thing where we went over all the attacks since 9/11 and just trying to show people that this country is seriously threatened.And, you know, the first thing you have to do is name, you know, who’s responsible and what’s responsible.

And so of course our target was the Muslim Brotherhood.And, well, “Islamophobia”—the Brotherhood hadn’t invented that term yet.Anyway, so we made this video about the terrorist attacks after 9/11.And there’s a task force—the California Highway Patrol and the FBI have a joint task force on counterterrorism.And a Hispanic CHP officer asked us if they could use it in their training.And again, what it was, it was just very dramatic, showing all the bombings and the Kenya bombing, and Tanzania, I think they bombed the embassy. …

Just one last thing about Duke, and then we’ll go on to Washington, because that’s where the main action is for the film.The whole lacrosse action, the thing that happened, is fascinating, because in the end, Miller was right. …

There was never any evidence.I mean, there have been some really good books written by people not as radical as me. …

It was all part of this mythology of—I don’t think they used the words “white supremacy” in those days, but it was white kids, and they were privileged white kids, so they must be guilty.It was disgusting.

And because of this incident, because of Stephen’s outspoken work in regards to it, he got on Fox television a bunch.He became well known not only at Duke but countrywide because of the focus on this story and his access to Fox.What did it do for him?Did it help him become what he wanted to become?

I think that Steve, when he talked to me about—I think he wanted to be a senator, you know.But he’s done much better than that.He’s right there at the top of the—and it’s because he’s so smart.I mean, he doesn’t make the mistakes that, you know—I think that Trump is a great blessing for this country, and I think he’s right on the money on all these issues.But he does, you know, talk off the top of his head, and he says things he shouldn’t say.You don’t find that in Steve.I mean, I just wrote to him about that after this appearance with Chris Wallace, that he has the clarity and the strength, but he doesn’t make the mistakes.

And, you know, with the—everything the left seems to be fighting about it is rhetoric, you know.When I was a kid, all my fights—let’s just take this thing: “Send her back.”It seems to have been spontaneous with the audience.It’s not racist. …

Stephen Miller’s Work for Jeff Sessions

… Let’s go back.I’ll bring it back to the beginning.I got to keep to chronology or else I’ll forget things.So you introduce him to Sen. Sessions, which is very important for him.But what do you tell him?You call up Sessions, and you say what?

I said: “This kid is as good as you’re going to get.He’s bright; he’s gutsy; he knows what he’s talking about.You couldn’t do better than to hire Steve Miller.”I must have said something like that.And Sessions was an admirer of mine. …

Why were these guys different on immigration?

Well, what happened was that Reagan had signed on to the final amnesty, and there would be no more illegal immigration.And it just increased the—I mean, I don’t know the specific statistics, but so this was a revolt against that.And it’s a revolt of the second thoughters, the people who actually believed in a whole liberal framework that the Founders had set up, which was also a conservative one, but that basic framework, borders.And they saw their guys never fought.The Democrats are really good at political warfare.And Republicans, their tendency is to fold, not to be confrontational.

So along came—I have no idea why Jeff Sessions, because he’s a very traditional conservative— that got him in a lot of trouble with Trump.You know, he—to the letter, trying to obey the rules.But he was really the leader, you know.This was his issue.

And he and [Steve] Bannon and Miller, they went to war.You called them “warriors on immigration.”

Yes.

Why?

Because the country really is at stake.This is a war.We’re being invaded.You can’t have 2 million, 3 million—you know, as I say, Tucker Carlson is always asking his opponents on immigration, how much immigration can we handle?And, you know, look what it does to— again, if you’re a second thoughter, look what it does to the wages of black people, for example, minorities in this country, to have all this cheap labor just pouring across the border.

So they’re going to be fighters because they feel betrayed.That’s the passion and the emotion.We’ve been betrayed by our own team.

The Trump Campaign

… Let’s go to Trump. They get involved—Bannon talks about the fact about how he was always looking for the right candidate; that there were issues that were important to him, important to Sessions, important to Miller.

He’s a leader.That makes all the difference.

Right. And he was looking, and they found Trump.And he jumps on board; Miller jumps on board; Sessions jumps on board during the campaign in a very big way.What was the importance of their role in getting Trump elected?

Well, here’s the way I see what Trump did.There had been this whole culture that developed out of Republican weakness and Democratic strength.You have to realize the Democratic Party and the radical left, they own the schools; they own the philanthropic institutions.So there’s all this—there’s this whole—I mean, I’m amazed.When I became a conservative, the first thing that—I’m amazed that a Republican gets elected to anything.When you have the universities, you have the media. …

So here comes Trump.And what enforces the left’s views is the party line, political correctness.That’s a very innocent-sounding term, but it was coined by the biggest mass murderer in human history, Mao Zedong, and it’s to keep people in line.You have to be politically—it’s really an offensive term in itself.And there’s a lot of people, especially comedians, who take a negative view of it without being conservatives.

Here comes Trump.And on national television—well, the first thing is the statement, which he got backwards.He should have said, “I assume a lot of the people who are coming across the border are decent people, but there are all these criminals and so forth.”If he had said it that way—but, you know, he’s not a—well, now he’s a politician, but he’s still learning. …

… Why is he so focused on immigration from day one and the wall?

I think anybody who understands that it’s culture that makes America great, and you have to assimilate people into our culture.You can’t bring people who—I mean, these people have inhabited horrible cultures.Why is South America poor?Why is Mexico poor?Because it’s a culture of corruption.The police are a menace to ordinary civilians.The government people are stealing.I mean, you know, we have thieves, too, but it’s a much more dominant, you know, way of political life, theft. …

Your thoughts on Miller and Sessions and Bannon, not only are they intrinsic to his win in the campaign, they are then put in hugely important positions in the White House.Just talk about those three guys and the importance to Trump.

Well, Sessions is an odd man out, as—because he is a traditional conservative.And Bannon and Miller are second thoughters, so they’re fighters.And, you know, I think what Bannon—if you listen to Bannon, all his talk is warrior talk.And so he encouraged Trump to be Trump.And people forget this about—I mean, there’s two things about Trump.One is the guy was in public life for like 30 years, and nobody but fringe leftists ever referred to him as a racist or a white nationalist, which is ludicrous, or a white supremacist, which is lunatic, until he was up running against Democrats.

… So Trump was very much in sync with Bannon’s attitude.Bannon feels the country is being betrayed, and there’s a lot of evidence for that.And it was betrayed by Bush as much as by Obama.

Stephen Miller in the White House

… The role of Stephen Miller on immigration, though.Just define how important he is in that White House.

Well, I think he’s extremely important.First of all, he wrote these wonderful speeches for Trump including the inaugural address, which addressed an issue that’s been near and dear to me, is the carnage in the inner cities.I mean, you’ve got to—all these people being murdered, thousands.I mean, Chicago is more dangerous than Iraq during the war for black people.And the Democrats aren’t doing anything about it.

And Miller drew attention to that.That’s a wonderful—the inaugural address is a wonderful address, immediately attacked as racist and whatever else they attacked it.

They said it was a downer; it was a catastrophe; it was nothing but the dark side.

That’s ridiculous.I mean, you want to stop that carnage.And it’s not that, you know—anyway, I just think the Democratic Party has lost its mind.I know there are—

His importance, though, to Trump and immigration?

Is that Stephen—look, Trump is an impulsive, often off-the-top-of-his-head guy.And he needs advisers who will keep him on the path, which is a confrontational path.There’s no question about it.You know, again, I mean, it amazed me, the trade deals, the tariffs.Everybody was against it.Wall Street was against it; conservatives were against it.This guy went and did it, and it seems to be working.

The Dreamers and DACA

… With “Dreamers,” there’s all this talk about the fact—and the president said it himself—he seems to wobble a little bit about Dreamers and DACA [Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals].

He gave them a great deal: 1.8 million for a final solution to the porous borders, and they rejected it because they want infinite—they want a flood of people.All these left-wing organizations are at the border, they’re along the lines of the caravans telling people how to evade our system and avoid—and get in and so forth.And they think there’s votes there.It’s just terrible.

… Do you think there’s too much focus, though, by Trump on the wall; that the wall became everything, and therefore, that prevents the willingness of the Democrats—?

No, no, no.That was genius.Come on. That’s how he won.People understand a wall.You can call it whatever you like, but we want to keep out people who are not coming through the legal process and they’re not assimilating.And part of the citizenship process is you renounce allegiance to your previous country and swear that you’re going to defend the United States.Those are all important things.

You think that got him elected?

I think the wall was a big part of it.And I loved, you know, Mexico will pay for the wall.Now, you know, Democrats are fond of pointing out that Mexico isn’t paying for the wall, whatever.But the message that’s communicated is “I’m going to fight, and I’m going to be as tough as the Democrats in these fights.” …

Immigration and the 2020 Election

The importance of immigration to the next election?I mean, where do we go from here?

Immigration is—look, people are being killed in this country by illegals.They’re being robbed; they’re being raped… This is going to go on until the border is sealed.And I think that anybody—I mean, people understand—I don’t even know how to formulate this.But I think the idea of a culture, people have to come in and share our values.If you just have people running across the border, not to mention ISIS terrorists, I mean, who wouldn’t be scared? …

I think that Trump’s base, as it’s called, 63 million people.That’s a lot of people are seeing their country destroyed and feel that way.And it’s by Democrats.You know, it’s bewildering to me, I mean, to show you how lame Republicans are, why in every speech they don’t point out this thing about the inner cities, that they’re 100 percent controlled by Democrats, and they have been for 50 to 100 years.I don’t get it. …

In a nutshell, if you’re going to define Miller’s philosophies on immigration, it would be what?

It would be what the Founders wanted.What Steve Miller is defending is the America we all grew up in and love, and he’s, you know, like I say, probably there’s nobody as knowledgeable on immigration as he is, having worked all those years with Sessions, you know.So Trump feels in Steve Miller—I mean, I’ve never met Trump, but I will, you know, stake my life on this—somebody who’s on solid ground on the issues because that’s very important; understands the arguments, the principles, is articulate and shares his passion.

When you saw Trump—they have all these interviews with Trump over the years before he entered politics.“Will you run for president?”“Well, if it gets much worse, I feel our country is, you know, being sold out.”So he’s a passionate patriot, and so is Steve Miller.

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