The FRONTLINE Interviews

Debbie Mesloh

Harris Aide

Debbie Mesloh served as communications director for Kamala Harris’ campaign for San Francisco district attorney, and as an aide to Harris’ California attorney general and the U.S. Senate races. Mesloh currently serves as the president of the San Francisco Commission on the Status of Women.

The following interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on August 2, 2024. It has been edited for clarity and length.

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Shyamala Harris, Kamala’s Mother

[Part of our story is] of where she came from and how her life led her into the world she's in and to where she is now.What did she tell you about her mom?…

I knew her mother well.And what she talked about was her childhood in Berkeley and in Oakland [Calif.].They were raised in an apartment building over in Oakland.Shyamala was a single mom, and so Kamala told me stories such as when they were little, she and Maya [Harris' sister], if they were in front of the TV, her mother said, “You have to be doing something else besides watching TV.” So Kamala learned to knit when she was young, and so she would knit as she watched TV.

And then the types of people that Shyamala had to dinner, the types of circles that she had in Oakland, which were really civil rights leaders and deep thinkers and people who were working for social justice, and Kamala told a lot of funny stories about being at the dinner table and having to present a point of view, even when she was a very young girl, about something, the topic of the day, politics or something in current events, and how she had to defend that position.So I think early on, getting that training of how you defend a position that you believe in and taking a stand.

Shyamala was an incredible woman, who was just larger than life.And talk about a lioness—like, all that she had done in her life for civil rights and for social justice.So I know that Kamala's talked about that quite a bit in her public career and in the books she's written, but when you saw Shyamala in real life and the impact that she had on Kamala and Maya when it comes to “We're here for a reason; stand up; stand up for what you believe in; don't back down.” And I think that she had that at a very early age.

I also think that she was in a position to see women lead.Her mother came from India.Her mother was a scientist.She talks a lot about how she would go into the lab with her mother.And seeing her mother be in this sort of nontraditional female role, one of the only scientists sometimes within the lab, female scientists, and the impact that it had on her.I think the impact that women can be and should be in leadership roles, but that it wouldn't come without a fight, and it wouldn't come without you knocking the door down; no one was going to invite you in.

And those are all the things that I saw in Kamala that I was so drawn to from that initial dinner meeting in 2000.

As far as the story of her mom, when you say, “You're not going to be invited in; you have to knock the door down,” what was it about her mom's story or what her mom would say that would convey that to young Kamala?

I think her mother coming over from India to pursue graduate studies and to pursue a career, a distinguished career in science, and sometimes being the only female in the room and having to claim that agency, having to claim that respect, having to do that through earning it through her smarts and the details that she had to know, I think she really influenced Kamala in that way of “You want to be in a room, then you need to get into that room and then earn the right to stay in that room.And that's going to come through your smarts and your preparation.”

And I think that carried Kamala through all the way.I know that she talks about the saying that she said her mom said a lot: “You might be the first to do many things, but make sure you're not the last.” I think that's the way that Shyamala lived her life.

And she certainly influenced me as well.She was in that campaign office in the race for district attorney in 2003.She was in that campaign office every day.There was no job too big or too small.She was a brilliant strategist, and sometimes she was stuffing mailers to go out to voters throughout San Francisco.And she was incredibly proud when Kamala won that first race.And she had a big hand in it.

I was Kamala's communications director in her first term as district attorney, and I would often call Shyamala for advice or for counsel or—she was just a brilliant strategist.But I think she definitely taught Kamala, “No one's going to invite you in, Kamala.You see somewhere you want to go, you do the work, you put it in, and you get there.And then when you're there, make sure that you are leaving a pathway for others, but that you're continually earning your place and that you're also bringing your whole life story to what you're doing.You're bringing all of your life experiences to that leadership role.” And I've always seen that as well.

Harris’ Childhood

Did she talk to you about those life experiences?Later she would talk about … some of the challenges of the neighbors' kids who would tell them not to play with her.Did she talk to you about the challenges that she must have faced, even in a pretty progressive place at the time?

Yes, it certainly was a different time when she was growing up.I had an opportunity to meet many of her friends throughout the years and her family, and I think that those years were so consequential to her, both of a beautiful and wonderful time within California.She's a daughter of California; she always talks about that, loves the state.But I think, again, she's never had a tolerance for bullies or people that are preying on other people, and I think that that came from that time where, again, she's told some stories of how people might be picking on Maya and that she would stand up.I know that Maya's talked about that as well.

So I think her initial seeds within her of not tolerating bullies or predators or cheaters came from her young days in Oakland.… I also think being raised by a single mom as well, I think having that unique experience.She talks about Mrs.Shelton, who was like her second mother, very close to her.I think she always felt lifted up, too, by a community.I've always felt that that influenced her as well in her natural coalition-building, which she's always done all throughout the time that I've known her, and certainly in the offices that she held and in the campaigns that we ran.That was something she always brought together, a very broad coalition, and I think being raised by Shyamala, and Shyamala as a single mom, but then the community that they built around them in Berkeley, really helped her understand and live the ideals of community.And she's carried that through throughout her career.

… The other thing I wonder about her childhood, because I saw her talking about something Trump had said about her, whether it was a racist or sexist comment, that she was being asked to react to, and she sort of said, “I've heard it my whole life,” almost laughing; “Yeah, I've heard that my whole life.” Is that part of what comes from, I guess it's a thick skin or a keep-pushing-on?Does that come from her childhood, too?

I have always found her to be a very practical person.I don't think she's surprised or is going to let it get in her way what people think about her or what they might say about her.I think that she expects that and she expects just to push through that.And since I've known her, that's what she's done.I've been in many rooms with her where she's the only woman, many rooms with her where she's been the only person of color.

And I think that she has a goal in mind, and she's going to achieve that goal.And I think that she just keeps her eyes on the prize.But I definitely think that is part of her upbringing and her mom's influence as well, of decide what you want to do and go do it, and don't let other people's definition of you get in the way—I know that she's talked about that many times—but you define yourself.

And I have to say, she influenced so many women that I know, women in the DA's office, women in the attorney general's office, really having a chance to see other women be inspired by that; again, that you can define yourself; you can decide your own agency, and then you decide what you want and go get it.

Harris Decides to Become a Prosecutor

It's interesting.It seems like one of those first key moments of her defining herself, it sounds like, as she describes it, is in conflict with her mom, of the decision to become a prosecutor and to sort of work inside the system.What is it about Kamala Harris who grows up, as she says, in a stroller at civil rights rallies that makes that decision?And did you—did you know about that conflict where she said she had to sort of convince her mom that this was the right thing to do?

She told me the story, how, yeah, she had to defend it like a thesis.But I know that she's talked about it, again, growing up in the East Bay during those years.I think that she saw injustices; she saw that the criminal justice system mattered, and not only on the public defender side, but who was on the other side of the table.

And so again, I know that—that she's talked about, too, her mom would often say, “Don't complain about it; do something about it.” And so I think that in her mind's eye, she wanted to be at the table helping to make decisions.She thought that she could have a significant impact, and I saw her do that in the district attorney's office for the communities that she cares about, for justice.

She would always say, “Listen, for the system to run well, you need excellent prosecutors, you need excellent public defenders, you need excellent cops, and you need excellent judges.” So I think for her, respecting all sides of the criminal justice system, I think she wanted to be at a place at the table that would have a big impact, and she saw how it impacted people's lives around her, and she wanted to innovate in the system and change the system.And she did a lot to do that.

We talked about her mom going into these labs at that time with largely a lot of white men who were her colleagues, but it's interesting that Harris also chooses that path.This is at the very beginning, choosing to go into being a prosecutor.Not only is it a very white space, but it's also a very male space.That's the other part of that decision to become a prosecutor, as to why she does and what does she face as she walks into an environment like that?

Yeah, I think that she's talked a lot about her heroes, right, in the civil rights era were all the attorneys.And Maya, her sister, is an attorney as well, as is her brother-in-law and her niece.And so I think all of them respecting the law as what it can do for people in their lives and the scale, obviously, that the law has to be able to achieve social justice.

But yes, certainly, especially at the time that she came and took the bar and became a lawyer, there were so few women.I was just talking to one of her close friends yesterday, who started in the Alameda County DA's office with her.They were both interns.And she's like, "I remember our first DUI trials.I remember Kamala preparing as if this was like a multi-homicide case, walking into that courtroom, being ready."

And so there were very few women just serving as prosecutors.And then when she became DA of San Francisco, of course, our first female, and I think there had been two women DAs in the state, never elected.She was the first elected ever in the history of the state of California.Same with attorney general's race, becoming the first female ever in the state of California.

So certainly she's helped pave the way for a lot of women, but she was one of the first women.

Harris Faces Racism and Sexism

It becomes a sort of recurrent theme or whatever in her life.Even going back to before she runs, but when she's walking into the DA's office is this theme of, “Do you belong here?” Does she have to prove herself to the people who have been there because she looks different, because she is who she is?Is that a theme?Because she's the first in so many things in her career, is that something she's faced from the beginning?

Oh, I think absolutely.And I think the way that she confronts that is she tends to take on the hardest thing.So I didn't know her when she was in the Alameda County DA's office, but she had some of the hardest cases, the child sex assault cases.Those are very difficult cases to win.A lot of attorneys struggle with taking those cases because you're dealing with child victims and you're dealing with delicate situations.And Kamala was an amazing lawyer.That was—that's what she took on in Alameda.She wanted those cases.She took those cases to trial, and she won.

Then when she came to the district attorney's office, she was head of the career criminal unit, which are people that cycle in and out of the system.Again, those are some of the most difficult cases.A lot of people within the DA's office did not want that caseload.

So what I've found with her is she just goes straight to the hardest thing and takes it on.And I think that she does that, number one, to prove her mettle, but two to show that she's a team player; she's willing to put herself to the test.And I think that she earns respect as a result of her approach that way.

Would she be facing overt sexism or racism in an environment like that, or is it subtle?

I have seen, in my own experience with her, many situations when she was district attorney.Again, she believes in coalition-building; she believes in working in strength in numbers.So she engaged quite a bit with the California District Attorneys Association when she first became elected wanting to make sure that she worked with her fellow DAs throughout the state.

Now again, she was the only woman DA.And so we'd be in many rooms where she'd be leading the conversation.She would be proposing something that we had been piloting in San Francisco that was working.She's very data-driven, so she always came with the facts.And people would talk to her chief deputy, who was a white man that she brought over from Alameda County, a good attorney that she brought with her, but would address him and not her.

And we talk about the vice presidential debate in 2000 with Mike Pence.It was along those lines.It was like, “Excuse me, I'm the one proposing this initiative.I'm the district attorney.” She would never let it pass.She would just reclaim her agency, reclaim her authority as the elected district attorney.

But I saw it many, many times.So it wasn't something unique that I experienced throughout her career.

But she didn't dwell on it.She sort of would just take back command in that situation.

That's right.

She doesn't call them on it.

No, she just takes back command.I think she has that authority and that confidence that that's her place, that she's earned that place.And again, she believes in what she's asserting.And so she has a point of view, and she knows that she's the one to assert that point of view.

Often these things are from her own lived experience.Many of the things that we were piloting in the district attorney's office in San Francisco were based on things that she had experienced in her own life, ways that she was trying to approach the criminal justice system, which is prevention first; let's treat the root causes of crime.This was something a lot of those DAs didn't want to talk about, certainly didn't want to engage in.They thought they were there to prosecute crime only and that was it; rack up those numbers.That was not her idea of how you be a DA.You are a civic leader.You are a community leader.You are working with other elected neighborhood leaders on how you prevent crime in the first place, really keeping communities truly safe.

A lot of those DAs, fellow DAs, thought that was fluffy, didn't want to hear it, but she had the facts to back it up.So no, she would just reassert herself as the lead.She did not let it knock her off course whatsoever.In fact, I think it just made her double down on her commitment to what needed to happen.

Harris Runs for San Francisco District Attorney

So now let's return to where we were, which is when you meet her in the run-up to her deciding to run for DA.In that period, do you start to realize that she has political ambition or thinking about running for office?How do you hear that?How do you see that?

Well, I mentioned the story that she was part of 14 attorneys who walked out and literally just confronted the DA at the time, DA [Terence] Hallinan, and said, “Listen, these are things going on in the office we don't agree with, and we'd like to see these changes, or we're out.” And so he said, “Well, you're out.” So they all left.

I think subsequently, as she analyzed that and spoke with her fellow attorneys, she really came to the conclusion that San Francisco just deserved better.And she loved San Francisco; she'd just moved over here from across the Bay and really felt like the office deserved professionalism and deserved excellence, so she decided to run and challenge the incumbent.

Now, San Francisco is a very small town.People are very politically engaged.This individual that she decided to take on wasn't just the DA for one term; he was political royalty.His family was absolute political royalty.His father had run for president.He had served many terms as a supervisor.He was rumored to run for mayor.So it was a big deal when she said that she was going to challenge him to be DA.It was a big deal in San Francisco, and really showed the grit that she has and the guts.

A lot of people told her not to do it; it was a mistake; she was going to ruin a promising career as a lawyer.But I have found that she is thoughtful about her decisions.She takes the time and does the due diligence, but then once her mind's made up, her mind's made up, and she just goes for it.

I think that she decided that that office needed real reform, and she decided that she could lend that leadership, and so she decided to run.

Now, when I met her—I know that she talks about it quite a bit.At the polls, or when I decided to join the campaign, she was at 6% at the time.And it's kind of funny to think now that she's the presumptive nominee for the president of the United States, but at the time 6%, it's looking like a path is unlikely.It is looking like that probably is not going to happen.And so people were also trying to get her to leave the race, and she had made up her mind that she was going to do it.So we put our minds to it, to deliver that, and we did.

How is she as a politician?A lot of people say she comes to politics from being a prosecutor.In a race like that, who is the politician that you see?

I saw someone who was constantly underestimated for how hard they'd work.I joke that typically in an—especially in those days, in a local race, you start greeting people at the bus stops, the Muni stops, our local subway system, passing out your mailers and meeting people.You typically start that after Labor Day.Oh, no, we were out there every day in the summer.We started in June.We were at the bus stops all throughout the city meeting people, talking with people about what she wanted to do, why they should care about their DA's office.That's the other thing; A lot of people don't even pay attention to who their DA is.She always wanted to make sure that people understood how important the office was and what the office could do for people, that there was a lot proactively that the office could do for people.So we started that in the summer.

So I found people always underestimated her for how hard she would work.She also was very practical about what was going to come her way, the various attacks, and she was prepared for that.And she also built a big coalition.We had a lot of different types of people who were part of that campaign.She was really able to merge the Black community and the Asian American community to win that race.So she built a big coalition.

She also symbolically, which people still talk about to this day, 20 years later, she's the only citywide elected official to ever have their campaign office in the Bayview, which is San Francisco's Black neighborhood.She's been the only person, before or since, to have her campaign office out there.So what that meant is a lot of people who supported her from some of the wealthier parts of San Francisco, like Pacific Heights, were coming to the Bayview.Some of them, that was the first time they'd ever been to the Bayview to help her and support her at the campaign office.

So I found her to be true to her—who she is, true to her community, willing to work, not taken off course by the punches, and someone who had a goal and was going to meet it.

How challenging was it to run as a woman?Because I saw an article where she was quoted even before the race talking about the challenges of being a woman, about the double standard, about how if you're attractive, people think you're not substantive, and all of the challenges.How challenging was it from the very first race for her to run as a woman, and how cognizant was she of that?

Well, at the time in San Francisco, there were very few women in office.I think we might have had three supervisors at the time, so there were just very few women anyway.And it was kind of still a good old boys' town.It was still kind of ruled by some political families, such as DA Hallinan, who had been—who had kind of been in the political space for many years, or some people from kind of the economic upper rungs, those families.And so she really took on a lot when she decided to run in 2003.

I also think there just had never been a woman DA before, so people also I think just had a hard time imagining what that would be.At the time, we'd had only had one female mayor, Dianne Feinstein, who came to the office through tragedy and then was elected in her own right.But people just had not seen women in kind of top roles before that.

I think it was not only taking on this political dynasty.And I know that she talks about DA Hallinan's nickname was “Kayo” for punch you out; he was a boxer.Let's just say that we knew he would—there'd be a fight, so taking all that on.

But I just don't think women—people hadn't seen women up to that point in these top roles.I think she was also up against that, confronting that.And then certainly when you come to law enforcement, what that looks like, and that a woman can serve in that role.

So I think there were some misconceptions initially.I think a lot of them were, is she just going to just prioritize only issues of reform, number one.Is she too liberal?We heard that a lot just because of who she is and the way that she grew up.

She's a moderate, and she talked a lot about, yes, the system, there's things that we can do better, and these things that we can do better will not only keep communities safer but they will save taxpayer dollars.But then we need accountability.She's always had that: Let's go after the violent and the violent crimes.

She had her record from at the Alameda DA's office to also run on, the cases that she had tried, the convictions that she had secured, again, in cases that were not easy to do.So she really threaded that needle not by so much like—more of showing the evidence, if you will.And that's what she did throughout that first campaign, that combined with a lot of hard work.

In that campaign, you said he's known as Kayo, and in that campaign, he hits her about her relationship with Willie Brown, something Trump's going to do later.How does she respond to that, and did she feel like this is an attack on her because she's a woman?How does she deal with something like that, that she's still dealing with?

Much like how she just handled Trump's speech or interview at the NABJ, you know: This is divisive.¹

WHYY: Former President Trump questions vice president’s race and punts policy questions during NABJ event

Voters don't care about this; voters deserve better.And what we're talking about here at the time, in that race, 2003, what we're talking about here is one of the offices that is making decisions about people's lives, one of the offices that has the opportunity to impact so many people within San Francisco and elsewhere.

At the time she was running, we had a big drug crisis in San Francisco.We had the highest homicide rate in the Black community that had happened in many, many years.So I think she was just like, voters are going to be smarter than that.And that's what she said.And what we saw in the long run is, they were.She ended up winning that.We had a primary and a runoff.That primary beat the other opponent as well, who also tried to make an issue about her being a female and then went on to win, of course, the general against DA Hallinan.

I think she just goes back to belief in the voters and what they think will be important.

Harris Is Hard to Place on an Ideological Spectrum

It seems like later there will be questions about where is she on a spectrum of tough on crime, of progressive, of liberal.Does she resist that kind of label in that race?What's her approach to politics at that time?

Yeah, absolutely.I'd say it was a two-pronged approach.When it comes to how she approaches criminal justice—again, this is 20 years ago.Now you hear this term a lot, but at the time it was new, this “smart on crime,” the public health model, which again, so much was her influence from her mother, which basically is, we should treat crime at its root causes; cycling people through the system is just stupid.Where we can prevent crime, we should.Where we have to prosecute, where people—it's too late, there's violent crime, we need to prosecute and hold accountable and remove those people from the community.

So she was like soft on crime or tough on crime.That's, as she likes to say, a false choice.We have an opportunity here to approach this in a new way and a way that perhaps was brand-new and pioneering at the time.And again, she had the data to back that up.When she talked about the prevention of crime, of, “Look, this is going to save taxpayer dollars; if you care about a safe community, this is really going to keep your community safe, and let me tell you why.” So she always had the math and the data and the evidence to back up why that was her philosophy.

So she completely rejected all of those labels put on her.If you tried to say that she was too soft, she would give her record and, again, emphasize that she was for accountability.And if you tried to say that she was too much of a cop, which we can point to all of the ways—at the time, this is before she had a chance to implement—but all the things that she wanted to pioneer.Again, at the time, these were pioneering, bold things of recidivism reduction and trying to give people life skills so they could exit the system permanently.That was really bold in those days, something that no one else was doing.

So she completely rejected the labels.I think that she just, through her own life experience as an attorney, just knew that someone that was putting forth those labels didn't really know the work.

Yeah, it's so interesting, because I wonder if that's like why Americans have had so much trouble understanding her because it's not on the ideologic—it's not necessarily 100% ideology.There's like a pragmatism or, as you say, a scientific sort of approach as to like what actually works, which isn't necessarily what we're used to.

Right.I think that's exactly right.What I saw in her district attorney's race and her attorney general's race—again, I think it's the influence of her mother—is this idea of innovation; that you have a thesis, and you test the thesis, and then you iterate.But it's really scary to people around the criminal justice system, the idea of innovation.Anything that's different for people, right, there tends to be just the weight of the status quo.

And so that was really a boulder that she had to push up the hill, these reform systems that we launched in the DA's office.There was no money; she just willed these things to happen.But she knew through anecdotal evidence throughout her career that they would work, and then they did.And a lot of DAs adopted her programs, you know, after the fact.Again, she was the one to really launch them.

But I think that's exactly right.I think it's the scientific approach and the emphasis on innovation, which, again, she had faith in the voters that they would want within their criminal justice system, even if they had never seen it, if she just made a compelling case and really, again, showed that through the data, which is what she did.

The Murder of Officer Isaac Espinoza

How important or how much of an impact did the Officer Espinoza moment have on her as a politician and a leader?²

CNN: How Kamala Harris’ death penalty decisions broke hearts on both sides

Well, I look back.That was so early after she had been elected.It was almost our 100th day, and it was just such a painful chapter in San Francisco, I think no matter who you are.Again, it's a very small town.We're talking 700,000 people.It's a very small, interconnected town.And so it was a very painful time.We had not had an officer killed in the line of duty in many, many years.I did not know Officer Espinoza personally, but from everything I understand, know about him from people who knew him, he's the exact type of individual you want in law enforcement.He was out there in the streets; he was undercover; he cared about these kids.It was just a horrible, heinous, sad chapter for San Francisco.The perpetrator was 21 at the time and no criminal record previously.Again, Officer Espinoza was undercover in an unmarked car.And so it was just a sad experience and a very painful experience.

And what I viewed at the time, the vice president as DA, she was really hurting, too.She's a member of law enforcement.She's a member of—these were—she'd been in the office before; she'd served alongside with SFPD.Certainly a lot of SFPD members celebrated her win because they knew that she would take law enforcement and matters seriously of public safety.And so it was just—it was very painful for her as a person personally, as a person professionally within law enforcement, and it was just a—it was a difficult time.

Ultimately, what I saw was her keeping front and center, and rightly so, her duty to put the facts and the law first, and that is what she did.And looking at the evidence in the case, given all the factors of the perpetrator not having … a criminal record before, his age, other circumstances, you know, she charged that case second degree and with the hope that we would get life in prison without parole, which would be a stretch for a second-degree murder conviction.But that's ultimately what we got.

… Does she learn something from that?She doesn't regret the decision that she made or doesn't say she made the wrong decision, but she does say there was something politically naive or whatever in how she handled it.

Yeah.I think looking back, and again, it was a painful chapter for everyone.If you were within the hall of justice, again, this was a small community, so you could see pain on police officers' faces, on court reporter, on prosecutors.It was just a very difficult time.

I think that we met the moment when the moment was called of what is she going to charge, knowing that the facts and the law were clear.So there was a question of, will she inflict the death penalty?There was a question called of, what is she going to do?I think that we tried to meet that moment with honesty and integrity.

Looking back, could we have spared some pain by perhaps waiting on the decision to announce the decision?Probably.And looking back, I know I take that for myself, of thinking about it in that context.

At the time, again, it was called for, what is she going to charge, and we tried to meet that moment, given the facts and the law.But could we have spared pain for anybody, but in particular the family, of waiting to announce that, even though it was clear from the case, that's what the facts called for.But if we could have spared anyone pain, absolutely, we'd go back and do that.

Harris Runs for California Attorney General

What is it that drives her forward?I mean, you said that she sort of ran for DA in the first place because she saw an office that was being mismanaged and she wanted to get it fixed and couldn't and said, “I'll do it myself.” But she's going to move on to the attorney general, and I'm wondering, when does she have more, greater political ambitions?What drives her forward from the DA's office to the AG?Do you see that happening?

I think it was that she had an opportunity to see everything that she could do within the DA's office.Again, when she came in, there hadn't been a DA in many years who tried the breadth of what she did—community programs, Back on Track, recidivism reduction programs.She was the first DA in many years to work with members of the California Legislature on laws.There was a lot of new crimes, if you will, emerging in those years.She started a mortgage fraud unit, human trafficking unit.She launched a human trafficking law—before that, prosecutors had to charge those cases as kidnapping; environmental protections unit.

So there was a lot happening.And again, that innovation piece that I think she saw what she was able to do within San Francisco, and then wanting to take that to the state.And that's why she decided to run for attorney general, I think understanding that that would be a bigger platform by which to bring these ideas.Do voters agree that they wanted innovation?And again, that race was a very—that attorney general's race was Kamala against a very traditional type of DA and candidate.

So again, would voters agree throughout the state of California that they wanted that innovation piece?And ultimately they decided that they did.So I think that's why she wanted to go on and continue to run for attorney general.

I know the results of that race were quite close, incredibly close.How much was it another uphill battle?Is this another place where she might have been written off or underestimated as she goes into that AG race?

Oh, absolutely.That was such a tough race.From the beginning, most people, her advisers, her friends were like, “Do not do it,Kamala.You are in the DA's office; you're having success; you're making an impact.This is going to be a very tough race.You're not well known throughout the state.You've had some things that people could criticize you on.You might be criticized for the Back on Track program, right?” Again, it was still something very novel in those days of, well, should DA be involved in solutions to prevent crime, or is the DA's role only just to bring a hammer down?Again, she believes in a carrot and a stick, but a lot of people, saying like, well, most people believe law enforcement should only carry a stick.

So from the very beginning, a lot of people advising her and suggesting to her that she not take on another campaign and try to become California's attorney general.As I said, she does her due diligence; she listens to people.And then when she decides to go for it, she goes for it.

So she knew she could have a bigger impact there.She decides to run.I'd say from the very beginning, trying to get into other parts of California that were not as progressive as San Francisco—San Francisco's kind of an island that way—and again, bank with voters that they agree that innovation is needed within the system, explaining some of the things that we had done in San Francisco and why she thought they would lend to other communities in California and really talking about true public safety and what that meant, which a lot of that is both prevention and accountability.

And it was a slog of a race.We both basically lived in Los Angeles for that year leading up to it.And I'll never forget—and it was just bit by bit, community by community.She went to those Black churches every Sunday.She was in San Diego.She was in Santa Barbara.Again, never underestimate her ability to put in the hours and put in the hard work.

But I remember 10 days out of that election—I think that this tells the story of what it was like day in and day out—we were in the car, and we had about an hour drive, and she was going to, I think, a community meeting.And again, we're 10 days out, and we're in the car, and on talk radio in Los Angeles, there's two stories that are back-to-back.The first is that Karl Rove has taken out an independent expenditure campaign against her, $1.3 million, which again, 10 days out can be very difficult to overcome.³

LAist: National GOP group targets Calif. attorney general candidate Kamala Harris

And then the second one right after that was an LA Times poll showing that she was 10 down and that we were going to lose by 10, and in particular, we were going to lose LA.

And we went to our community meeting.We went straight back to the campaign office.She ordered pizzas.And I think, like, we worked around the clock for that 10 days.And she rallied everyone beside her, and she was kind of like, “We’ve got to prove everybody wrong.We're so close.We can do this.”

So that entailed everything from raising more money to getting on the phones, all of us trying to counter that money that Karl Rove had put in.He decided to focus on attorney generals [sic] and people who were trying to become attorney generals [sic] that he thought had a longer career or a promising career.

And so it really was fuel for the fire, actually, 10 days out.It just made us work harder.Again, we're not going to let it go without a fight.

And to your point, it was a close race, but we ultimately prevailed two weeks after Election Day.

It's amazing that Karl Rove, whatever you may think of him, identified her as a threat down the road in almost a scenario like we see today, that even at that race of AG, she had something about her that people saw national possibilities.

I think that's absolutely right.She's compelling.She has a way of communicating to draw you in.It's one of the things that I so appreciated about her in the district attorney's office and attorney general's office, making a lot of people care about that.She would always say, “Look, if you care about social justice, you'll care about the criminal justice system, because it's the base of the pyramid.How we treat people cycling through that system impacts all of us.”

So she's a gifted communicator.She's compelling.She's charismatic.She's true in who she is.I think that we're seeing that.She's lifted up by cultural forces.I saw that in her first race; it's been great and wonderful seeing that now again.And she's able to build those coalitions.She's able to reach across a lot of different communities and have people support her vision.

And she's always tried innovation and different things, and I think that that can be scary to the status quo.And it was working.That was the other thing, that some of these new ideas, bold ideas that she has, they were working.And so I think a lot of people just wanted the status quo.

Our opponent in that race, too, was very pro-death penalty.There were two kind of defining pieces in that race.One was he was pro-death penalty; the other that he said he would defend Prop 8, which was the ballot initiative that passed in California outlawing same-sex marriage.Kamala said she wouldn't defend that in court.So there were two really signature issues also that voters had to make up their mind about.

When she wins, and she would hear or you would hear somebody say “the next Obama,” what reaction would she have to hearing something like that?

They had a lot of affinity, right?There was some, obviously, similarities, Obama being raised by a single mother; Obama, obviously with part of his family background from Kansas, him living in various places, having that kind of nontraditional life, but that he was able to really portray that and communicate about why that was a strength.Why, if some people saw that as a weakness, how that was a strength for, first he started in Chicago, right, and explaining that and having an impact there, but then, for the country, that he could communicate that.

And I think that's what they saw in each other, and that's what I always saw in her, too, is, her life experiences and story, when I would see her in those rooms where she would be the only woman in in a table full of male DAs or the first time we went to the National Attorneys Association, NAG, right after she got elected, that she knew it in her gut and in her heart that that was a strength, and she was able to communicate about that with a compelling story and a compelling vision.And I think it scares a lot of people, and I also think that people are also very inspired by it as well.And so I think they always saw that in each other.

How important is her handling of the mortgage story?That's a case where she's sort of on the other side of the Obama administration that's trying to push through a deal, and she takes a little bit of a harder line.How important is that story to understanding who she is?

Well, it happened—it unfolded right after she was elected, right?So again, we won two weeks after Election Day; he finally conceded on Thanksgiving Day.So we're talking mid-November.So we have six weeks, right, to prop up an office, hire people, start to put the wheels in motion.And so she takes office.

I remember, I was in the office with her, and she takes, starts taking these phone calls around—this had been in process with other attorneys general, right, for some time.And she's starting to take these phone calls, and she's realizing kind of what the deal looked like.And then I'll never forget, I wasn't the lead staffer with her on those calls, but of course being in the office, she was just like, “This is not good enough.This is not good enough for the people of California.”

I think we had something like 2 million homeowners that were under water.And again, this is one of the things of the many things that I loved working about her.It wasn't something esoteric to her.She was like, “My mom bought our first house when we were teenagers.The pride that my mother had in buying a house, I can't imagine.These are people that are playing by the rules, and they're just trying to live the American dream, and we're talking about families and their kids.And they've done everything right, and everything that they thought was playing by the rules, and I can't let them down.I'm not going to accept this.”

And certainly that was not—she's brand-new.Again, she's one of the only women.They had had this deal that was in the works for a while.Obama is in office.There was a lot I think that she had to confront, but ultimately, looking at the facts of it, she just didn't want to let those 2 million homeowners down and that she knew she could get better.She knew that if someone would just say no and someone would confront it and make them hold the banks to account that they could.

And so that's where I saw her resolve.I've seen it many times, but certainly that was one of the strongest incidences of her just resolve.

Harris Runs for U.S. Senate

… Can you help me understand the decision to run for Senate?She's been a prosecutor her entire career, and in some ways, more than a politician; she's been a prosecutor.And this is a big a leap into national politics.Was that a hard decision?

It was.I think every decision that she's made has been with a lot of thought and thinking through, is that really what she wanted?Where could she have the biggest impact?She loved being attorney general of the State of California. She loved the opportunity there to implement things throughout the state.

After she won, I'll never forget, she was like, “I want to spend a lot of time in the Central Valley.” We were in the Central Valley, I think, like the second week after she won that race.We had an office there.We had many offices throughout the state, but we spent a lot of time in the Central Valley.

Then, throughout the mortgage fraud process—again, I wasn't the lead staffer on that, but she went to every part of the state and met with these homeowners.She went to Stockton.She went to the Central Valley.She went to Fresno.She went to San Diego.And again, it was really through that lens and that perspective, that's what gave her the resolve to stand up to that deal.

And so she loved that role.She loved being attorney general.But again, I think an opportunity for her within the United States Senate, one, to have the representation of her voice there.There were so few—and not even just being the second Black woman and [South] Asian woman, but as a prosecutor and as someone who came up through local politics and someone who had that orientation.There has been very few people as well who have had that perspective within the United States Senate, and the ones who had, such as Sen. [Claire] McCaskill,was advocating for her to run for Senate, because Sen.McCaskill had also been a prosecutor and was talking about how that perspective was valuable at the United States Senate.

So I think that for her, the opportunity to have that impact and to serve in that way was something that she decided that she wanted to do.Also, I think all of the issues then—of course we didn't know then that Trump would win, but everything that she could bring to bear, too, which she did—Senate Intelligence Committee, Senate Judiciary Committee, opportunities to broaden beyond just a strict law enforcement portfolio—I think that she felt like she had things to give in other areas and wanted to do that as well.

Harris Goes to the Senate

Let me go to that, because it seems like a life-changing moment for the nation and for her, which is when she's elected, and it's the same time that Hillary Clinton loses and Donald Trump is elected, and she gives that acceptance speech about “It's time to fight.” Help me understand how important that election night was and the emotions of it and the response was to who she would be as a United States senator.

Well, it was our first election night that we had in Los Angeles.So you know, obviously she had run locally before, but Kamala can be a superstitious person and we had the election night party at the same place, Delancey Street.We had all major events there in San Francisco.So you know, we had our election night party, of course, in Los Angeles.She really wanted to thank the people of Los Angeles if she won because certainly that was going to play a big role in her winning statewide.

So we were in LA.We had gotten some tracking information, some tracking polls that look like, you know, we were going to be successful, but she does not believe that until you know, the race is actually declared.She's just not one to—again, she's superstitious.She would not even listen to it, look at those tracking polls.It's just not her style.She's like, I'll believe it when it comes in.

And so, that night she had a small dinner for family and friends.And we were at this dinner, and I'll never forget, The Associated Press declared her the winner at like three after 8 p.m.The polls closed at 8 p.m.Pacific.And they declared her the winner.She would not believe it.Doug had to pull her aside and be like, “Kamala, you're the next United States senator.” And she just wouldn't believe it.You know, none of her election nights had ever been easy.And not to say that this one was; I mean, it was hard earned, but it came so fast.She just didn't believe it.

And then, the other results started coming in, and it started to emerge that we might be dealing with a Trump presidency.And again, I'll never forget that some people in the room were like you shouldn't go to your headquarters until after primetime news.You know, you should hit it when the news is coming.And I'll never forget, she was like, “I need to get over there.People are going to be really struggling.We need to make sure that we're holding the space and that we're doing our part to fight.You know, we're not going to take this, we're not going to say, oh, woe, is us.Like, this is an opportunity to roll up our sleeves and to show what we're made of.”

And so, we get over to the campaign where the party was.Some people are crying.It is a despondent crew.It is a despondent crowd.And I think people are really starting to recognize some things that we might be faced with under a Trump presidency.

And she goes back in the back.There was a speech that we had crafted, and she just tore it up; she just tore it up and was like, I'm just going to go out there and talk with people.And that's when she came up and she just lifted up that crowd.She was like, “This is not a time for us to wallow.This is a time to roll up your sleeves.Let's get to work; we are needed in this time.”And she just lifted that crowd up.And I think it had a big impression on everybody who was in the room; but for her as well, of what she was getting ready to go into and to face.We had to be in D.C.the following Monday for Senate onboarding, so there was no time to, you know, absorb this, think about this, process it at all.She just had to go.And that's what she did.

In a parallel universe where if Hillary Clinton was elected, she might have been a different senator than she was in this universe where Donald Trump was elected.And she gives that fight.And in a lot of ways, she becomes [an] iconic figure even as a freshman senator, of taking apart Trump nominees and grilling at the [then-Supreme Court nominee] Brett Kavanaugh hearing.How does she fall into that position?And is she drawing on her past and her life experience as she's a senator during this first year of Trump?

Yeah, absolutely.I think this intolerance for bullies, you know, taking on the bullies and knowing that she's right; I think that's what we saw in those hearings when she zeroes in.She is a skilled prosecutor, number one, she's a skilled litigator.I think people can see that talent in her.A lot of that comes from just preparation, hard work and preparation.But she zeroes in.She does not like bullies.

In particular, another theme throughout her entire career has been standing up for women and children.You know, she's done that—DA, attorney general, in the United States Senate.So I also think through the Kavanaugh hearings and through other hearings, that's what we saw, right, is her innate standing up for women and children.

I know she's talked about the experience that she had when she was a teenager and one of her good friends was being molested by her stepfather.I think it comes from a very deep place of, you know, you might think someone doesn't have power and you might think that you're able to take advantage of them or to abuse them."But I'm here to tell you that, you know, it's a new day.It's something different.I'm coming for you."I think she probably did that as a young girl in that situation for her friend, but I think it's a very deep-seated thing.So I think that's something else that you saw, you know, through her year at the Senate as well.

That's interesting.I hadn't thought about that.I mean, I don't know if you were drawing that connection, but as you were answering it, the Kavanaugh hearing and her experience as a kid.It's not necessarily personal but that's an issue that she's felt very strongly about her whole life.

Oh, yeah.It's so, I think it's deep-seated within her and I think that throughout her entire career, I think that that is something that has just been a principle and a value.

You know, I'll never forget—the story's coming to me now—of one of the first things I saw when she became DA, it was like our second day in the DA's office and a prosecutor was talking with her about one of his cases.And it was a sex assault case.And he was like, Well, you know, the victim is a teenage prostitute.And I'll never forget Kamala just stopping him and saying, “I don't know what that—I don't know, I've never met a teenage prostitute.I don't know.I've met exploited kids, but I've never met a teenage prostitute.”

And one of the first things she did was change that for within our office, of saying every time you charge a case, you know, it is exploited youth.Again, “I don't know what a teenage prostitute is.” And by the way, you know, the victims in these crimes shouldn't be the ones going to jail.We're going to add additional prison time on for the people that are perpetrating against these kids.And then, she got that codified actually in California law.That was one of the first laws she took on, to change it within the California Penal Code, to say these are exploited youth.These are exploited kids.These are not people that are out there, you know; these are kids that have been exploited at some point and they're in their childhood.And trying to shift the powers of the criminal justice system to say the people that should really get punishment for that are the people perpetrating on these exploited youth.

So I think it's very deep-seated in her.And I think that you've seen that, you know, all throughout her career.And that's what I saw in those Kavanaugh hearings as well, of, you know, just this inner well of resolve and fortitude matched by that level of preparation that she'll do.And nothing stops her in that case.You know, I pity the poor fool on the other side of her in that case.

Harris as Vice President

… What is [she] like as vice president?I mean, she's yet again [a] historic first on multiple levels, as a vice president.And there's the symbolism of it, but it's also a job, unlike attorney general or district attorney, where she doesn't get to make decisions.… What was she walking into as vice president?

I do think it was a different type of role.Obviously she's used to being the executive, and so this is a little bit of a different situation.I know that she had such profound, and does, respect for President [Joe] Biden.She's talked a lot about her relationship with Beau and how that was one of the first connection points with Senator Biden.You know, when Kamala accepted the California Democratic Party endorsement for the Senate race, Senator Biden flew out and was with us at the convention in San Jose, California, when she accepted that.You know, so they have forged a relationship and a deep respect even before he asked her to be on the ticket.

And so, I think walking into that office—and it was during COVID, and it was post-Trump, right, so they're having to rebuild.The country is in a moment of something we've never experienced before.She's a first again going into it.And so, from what I know about her, she would just apply all those things that she knows to be true: Speak from your heart.Bring your life experiences with you.You're at the table for a reason, so bring your life experiences with you to inform decisions and to try to, you know, make that broader impact.

And to support the president.I think that she went into the office wanting to do everything possible to make him successful, make the administration successful, and really build back the country.

… But there is a clarity when it comes to Dobbs after Roe, that's a little bit different than dealing with migration from Central America.I mean, when you saw her take the lead from a president who didn't like to use the word abortion, who did you see in that Kamala Harris?

I saw the person I've always known, someone who was like, “This is not right, this is just not right.” Whether you are a person that believes in a woman's right to—right to choose or not, I think based on the law, she's like, "I don't believe that this is right from a legal standpoint."And then on to a value standpoint of, women should have autonomy over their bodies.

And so, I think that you're seeing again that deep core belief that women should have agency in all ways.…And again, I think harkening back from her childhood, too.In all the years that she worked on issues of violence, all types of violence against women—and that includes economic violence, emotional abuse—you know, she believes it comes from a core part of women being able to choose for themselves.And so, I think that we're seeing this, that deep-seated sense of justice and what's right and what's wrong.

Biden Steps Aside and Harris Becomes the Democratic Nominee

… There's this moment of crisis for the Democratic Party, for America, which is that moment after the debate, she's on CNN.It's almost like people suddenly say, “Wait, here's Kamala Harris who's out there being an eloquent defender of the president.” Did you see that moment?And, you know, were you surprised that suddenly the story about her started to change?

Well, I think there's a couple things to me.Certainly in that moment, I do think a lot of people felt a little adrift and nervous and probably afraid of what was going to happen.And I think that she showed up with that leadership.She showed up with that fortitude.She showed up with that command.…But I think part of that, too, she had been, and on the administration's request, touring the country and talking about jobs, really being out there, you know.She'd been in a lot of local media markets leading up to that, for months, you know, being out in the states, which is something that she loves to do.She loves to be out of D.C.and in the states talking about the issues that matter.

So I think it's also that people maybe had not seen her for a bit or not seen her in that national way.So I think when they showed that interview and she had such fortitude and was really talking about her own personal experience with the president, you know, I think it was reassuring to a lot of people.

… But this idea of the moment, because we talked about it wasn't her moment before and now here she is, running as the prosecutor, as she would say, the prosecutor against the felon.Two people with very different views about the rule of law, very different views about what America should look like and what is the true America.I mean, how does she approach this with the stakes being as high as they are and with her having the background and being who she is, how does she approach this moment?

I think she trusts the voters.I think she lays out the facts of the case to the voters.I think that she presents the evidence.And I think that she trusts the voters.I also think that she goes back to those values of trying to really expose bullies and predators and show people that there is a better way.If people feel like they had a better life under Donald Trump, let me show you actually the facts of the matter.And then on top of, you know, this person is a bully, this person has been convicted of crimes.When she says, “I know the type,”look, you know, these are folks that I know well.And you know, this is a personality type, and this is what you can expect.

So I think she's going to be, you know, telling the American people, again, based on her own life experience, and then again that forward-looking vision, not just an anti-Trump, but you know, what does she see for the future of America, and you know, where can we go from here?It does feel like a turning of the chapter in so many ways, of, you know, both a younger ticket and, you know, people who are going to look different, perhaps, on the ticket that we've, you know, haven't seen before.…

What’s the Choice in the Ballot?

So the last question that we ask everybody is, what is the choice?What's the choice that voters face in November as you see it?

I see it as an America that is hopeful, an America that does have economic promise, an America that is based on the rule of law and honesty and core faith on each other, based on people's real relationships throughout the country, and something that's real and not something that's manufactured.Versus, you know, a vision of one person of what he would like to create for himself.

I think there's certainly things that we need to do to make sure that it is a unified country.And I think that she will lay out those policies.Again, I'm not officially on the campaign, but I think she will lay out those policies in detail so people are informed.

But ultimately, I think that her respect for the voters and her trust in the voters will come through.

But I think it's a stark choice that we have. Do we want to live someplace that is hopeful and we trust each other, that we know, based on the history of the United States, that there is not anything that we can't do together based on are we going to go into a vision from one man created really for himself?

And so, I think that's the choice that the voters have to make.

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