The FRONTLINE Interviews
Fred Sears
Biden Friend
Fred Sears is the retired president and CEO of the Delaware Community Foundation. Prior to that, he had a career in banking. He is a longtime friend of Joe Biden.
The following interview was conducted by FRONTLINE’s Michael Kirk on June 17, 2020. It has been edited for clarity and length.
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Young Biden
Tell me about when you’re at the canteen at the country club and you meet Joe Biden for the first time.What’s his deal?What does he look like?How does he act?
When you go to something like that, nobody had dates.Everybody goes on their own, and 90% of the guys are standing around talking about the game or anything, and trying to get their nerve up to ask a girl to dance.In those days, we’re in the late ’50s here, it was a different time for sure.
And he really had a presence.You knew him when he walked in.He was a little taller than most and in very good shape, obviously.He was a star football player on their team.I was not, at all, not even on the football team at that point.But he—people liked him; people liked to be around him.He had a little, I wouldn’t say posse, but two or three guys, his buddies that he always came with.Nobody came to those things by themselves.You had to come with a couple of guys to give you confidence.
But—and so that was the first.And then we both ended up at the U of D. I was—Joe and I are actually the same age; literally, he’s 10 days older than I am.But as the story goes, he repeated a grade, I think, because of the stuttering situation, so he was a year behind me.But we ended up at the U of D together, again in that sort of idea, where he was president of his freshman class.By then I was a sophomore but I knew him.And then we talked about—I joined a fraternity.I was in a fraternity at that time and tried to get him to join the fraternity.He was not a fraternity guy.
What does that mean, Fred?
I think there were a couple things.Number one, I think the money wasn’t there for it.I think his grades were, at the time, his freshman year, were a little tight.And mine were, too; I’m not saying anything out of school.So the pressure of joining a fraternity and keeping your grades up and the money that it cost—and he wasn’t a drinker.And in those days, that was—part of the deal with a fraternity was, you could figure out a way to party and have some beer and some drinks and whatever.And he was not a drinker.So—
Did you know why?
That didn’t mean he wasn’t liked, and it doesn’t mean that he wasn’t invited to the parties.As a matter of fact, I took his sister, Val, to her first fraternity party.And she’ll tell you, she tells everybody, every time I’m with her someplace and she introduces me, “And this is Fred Sears; he took me to my first fraternity party.”
We never really talk about it—a history of maybe some alcoholism someplace in his family.I don’t know that for a fact.But he clearly wasn’t a drinker, and not a smoker either.In those days, the girls were all smokers, or a lot of them were smokers for sure, and he—there are stories out there, which I’m sure you’ve probably heard, one of who was a very good friend of—she was a roommate of the girl I was pinned to, had a date with him, and she got in the car with him and lit up her cigarette, and he said, “You’re going to have to put that out, or this is going to be a short date.”Just the way he was.
Let’s go back a little bit.So you knew him in high school a little bit.Did you know his family or anything in high school?You really got to know him by the time you got to college, right?
Yeah, yeah, right.I didn’t.My family did.It turns out my mother went to her prom with Big Joe.She always called him Big Joe, his father.And they bought all their cars from Joe, who was a car manager for one of the dealerships in town.
What kind of cars?
Chevrolet.That was a big plus for Joe in college because he was working at the dealership or managing the dealership in Newark, and we weren’t allowed to have cars on campus, but somehow on weekends he managed to get a car because it was literally a mile from the campus where he managed to get a car on campus.And that was a big plus for a date because the rest of us are walking around, shuffling around the campus, running back and forth.And in those days, the girls, Friday night, had to be in the dorm by 11:00 and Saturday night by 12:00.So if you had a car, you had a better chance of getting them there on time than running down the campus together or whatever.
Biden’s Early Political Ambitions
You said he was freshman class president.So a political orientation from the very beginning?
He was actually president of his senior class at Archmere as well, yeah.So he was into that stuff.I’m not sure it was political as much as the lawyer in him, or whatever.
What does that mean?
And he was also popular.He was very popular.I think he had opinions about the way things should be done and not, not that he—he wasn’t a leader of change or rallies or anything like that, but just respected, very well respected, and just had that kind of personality, that leadership kind of personality, even back when he was in high school, even before he got to U of D.
But not a student, not a brainiac.
No.No.I’d love to say yes, but my classic line, and he laughs about it every time I tell him, when we were coming back a couple years later, coming back from Nassau after he met Neilia [his first wife], and he said—we’re sitting in the plane together, it’s a little, tiny plane, coming back, flying to Florida, and he said, he said: “I’ve made my decision.I’m going to law school at Syracuse,” because that’s where Neilia was in school.And I said: “Joe, let’s first get the hell out of Delaware before we talk about law school, OK?We’ve got to focus on graduating here, pal.”And my grades were right there with him.I mean, we were both—we knew—we were pretty sure we were going to make it, but it wasn’t like the—the dean’s list wasn’t looking for us, let’s put it that way.
The Close-Knit Biden Family
Tell me about Big Joe.
Big Joe was—and I only knew him briefly.My mother knew him really well, and that’s a really nice story.She’d always talk about him. …But she also remembers Big Joe as a great dancer, and he also brought her her first orchid for the prom.And when Joe—she was in a home in Wilmington, and one time Joe was in town and I was able to connect with him and ask him if—my mother would be thrilled if he—this was when he was vice president—if he would stop by and say hello, if he had any time.And he said—he told—he said he’s got to fly out the next day for a funeral over in the Middle East, but he’s not sure what time the flight is.If the flight’s later, he’ll see what he can do.
And sure enough, they call me, and he goes over at 4:00 in the afternoon to her place and surprised her.And they sat down and talked for about 10 minutes.He went to her room and sat down and talked.
But the funny—the best part of that deal, he showed up that day with an orchid.Just really, and that just—at 95, that made her life, really.And that’s the way he thinks.That’s honestly the way he thinks.
What do you mean by that, that’s the way he thinks?
He tries to think of what personally will appeal to people, and how to reach—I don’t mean, I don’t think he’s doing it on purpose, but that’s just his personality, is that he’s always looking at and thinking of what those people would appreciate, what’s important in their life.And one of the classics is when—when Beau passed away and I went to the funeral, and after I went through the line, I stood on the side with Beau’s father-in-law, Ronnie Olivere, and watched as these people came up, one after another.It was at least an eight-hour or maybe longer session of him standing there.He was consoling people; they weren’t consoling him.They’re falling in his arms crying, and he’s the one standing there for eight hours telling them it’s going to be alright.I’ve never, ever—I’ve been to a lot of funerals and never seen anything like that.Never.And that situation, even, yeah.
Tell me where he gets this from.Is it a family thing?Are they a close-knit family that took care of each other?Tell me about them.
It is a very close-knit family, but, you know, and I know Frankie and I know Jimmy a little, and certainly I know Val very well.It’s hard to say whether it comes from Mom or Dad or whether it’s just instinct.But it’s sincere; it is absolutely sincere.And there isn’t—he’s one of those people that when people meet him, even if it’s only once—one time when I was—when he ran for vice president the first time, it was 2008.We vote—we lived right down the street from his house, and we vote in the same place.And I’m standing there in line, and who comes in to vote but Joe and Jill?And of course they go right up in the front of the line and put them in the booth.
And the guy I’m standing behind, who I have no idea who he is, he looked like an average blue-collar worker, whatever, and he says, “That’s Joe Biden.”I said, “Yeah, I know.”And he said, “You know, I know him.”And I said, “Oh, is that right?”And he said: “Yeah, one time when he was running for Senate and he was going door to door, he stopped by my house and I had my Corvette out in the driveway and we must have had a 15-minute talk about Corvettes.He’s the greatest.”It was like, one time.Pretty special.
So he’s that guy.Tell me about this mom.
His mom was his life.I mean, and again, I met her a handful of times.I went to the funeral.It was very difficult for Joe.She was such a part of his life.And he listen—she ruled the house, really.And especially after Big Joe passed away, he listened to her.She was right on top of everything.She came to so many events and things.And of course, she lived right—towards the end she had an apartment right on his property, over his garage.So she was there.And she—I don’t know her relationship with Frankie and Jim as well as with Joe, but she was the real leader of that family as the years went by.
What was she like?Could you tell that she wore the pants in the family or what?
Well, yeah.I mean, again, I did not spend a lot of time with her to say whether she was a tough lady or just a wise lady or both.I’m probably guessing it was both.And what she went through, as Joe always tells those stories about when his dad was out of work and they were living up in Scranton and he was going to find a job and she kept the family together.In those days, nobody thought twice about some of the stuff you just had to do.And she—again, I don’t know her well enough to say a lot more.
And now just tell me for a moment, more than that if you want, about Val and Val and Joe’s relationship.
Where would Joe be without Val?Where would Joe be without Val?And he’ll be the first to tell you that.She is great.And she’s got that kind of personality.She’s got a business kind of personality as well.She gets things done.She keeps track of things.She is the organizer.She certainly, for me anyway, and for most of us, I mean, right now I’m on the board and treasurer of the Beau Biden Foundation.She did not want to be on the board or anything, but if there’s anything that comes up through the Beau Biden Foundation that might have some implications that we’re not very—that we’re concerned—because we’re not attached at all to the campaign; we’re completely separate from politics.We’re protecting innocent kids.We run programs for—to protect innocent kids, training programs with teachers and police and the community centers, whatever, around the country.We’ve got a contract to run training for the Special Olympics, whatever.
But if there’s anything that comes up that seems to be somebody’s making a contribution because they think that it’s going to help them with Joe somehow or some way or whatever, something like that, the first person I call is Val, and she calls me right back, and she gives me the right word and the wisdom every single time.
Biden’s Catholic Faith
How do you figure his Catholicism influences Joe and influenced him back in those days?
I think it influences him a lot.But he’s also open to understanding where people are coming from who aren’t Catholics.He clearly goes to Mass as much as possible and clearly is a strong, strong believer.But there are certain church policies that he just has a different opinion on.And I’m really proud of him to be able to stand up and say that.To tell you the truth, a lot of people may think that, but “I can’t, God, I can’t say that,” you know?But he will.But it has been a strong influence on him, there’s no question.He is a God-fearing person.
Biden Meets Neilia
Take me to Nassau spring break.Joe, you, Neilia.Tell me the story, Fred.
Oh, God.There were three of us: a football player named Mike McCrann; Joe was a junior—I think Mike was a junior, too—and I was a senior.Joe wasn’t playing football by then.And somehow we figured out that we were going to go to Fort Lauderdale.And we—I found—Joe swears we did something a little different, but I’m pretty sure of this.I found one of those postcards on the bulletin in the student center saying, “Need riders to Fort Lauderdale,” you know, to pay the way or pay, share in the gas prices.So the three of us signed up to go in this car.I can’t remember who was driving, one of the gals.Maybe two gals were driving.
So the three of us signed up and went down with this carload.Joe swears we thumbed it.We didn’t thumb it.We actually got the ride off the board.But that’s another story.
At any rate, we get to Fort Lauderdale, and we’re not there a day, and, like any college kid in ’63 or ’64, we figured spring break, there’s got to be a lot of girls here.Well, there were about 10 million boys and 100 girls.It was just way overwhelming.The numbers, even though we all thought we were pretty hot stuff by then, there was no chance we were even going to get a girl to talk to us, let alone get a date.
So we’re standing on the beach one day, and this plane flies across the beach, and it says, “Round-trip flights to Nassau for 28 bucks.”And we didn’t have five cents, but we had enough to do that.And we didn’t have a place over there.We didn’t know anybody.But we said this—spending a week here roaming these beaches with another 1,000 guys just doesn’t make any sense.So we ended up taking the flight to Nassau.
Got off the plane, and the first objective was to try and walk downtown Nassau and see if we could meet somebody with a U of D shirt on or even a UPenn shirt or somebody that would know who the U of D was, that maybe we could sleep on their floor or get a cushion off their couch, wherever they happen to be.And we did run into some guys who had a room over top of one of the stores in downtown Nassau that said we could take some cushions off their couch and sleep on the floor.
But then—so we did that the first night, and then the second night we get up, and we’re going to the beach, and we find out that all of the good beaches there are private for the hotels.You can’t get on them.We said: “Well, this isn’t going very far either.We’re going to kind of wander the streets of Nassau forever here.”
So Joe comes up with this idea.I can’t remember the name of the hotel, but we’re walking by this one hotel, and there’s some beach towels on the fence outside the hotel, and they were hotel towels.So we grabbed the towels, put them around us, and walked through the gate like we’re members.And the guy there checking sees the towels, sees us in our bathing suits, blah, blah, blah, we go right in.
I’m telling you, we aren’t there—we’re not there five minutes, and we’re looking around, and there are these three girls about 100 yards away, one of them with this beautiful blond hair and one-piece bathing suit; I believe it was black.And we’re saying, wow, we’ve got to go talk to those girls.But who’s going to talk—Neilia just really stood out.Who was going to talk to Neilia, and we said, well—and of course, I was a little bit of the organizer, so I said, “Well, wait a second,” because I was a senior, and they were both juniors.But any rate, I said, “We’ve got to do one potato, two potato, or flip a coin or do something.”And while I’m trying to figure that out with McCrann, all of—Joe’s got a 30-year jump on us.He’s not waiting for any decision.He’s gone, you know.
So we go chasing after him.By the time we catch him, he’s already in conversation.He could do that.He could walk up to anybody and get into that conversation.Gets in a conversation with Neilia.That’s the last we see him for the week.Mike and I are sleeping on the floor in this place, and this guy—turns out she’s there with a friend who the friend has a—her father has a yacht, and they’re staying on this, her parents’ yacht, and he’s staying on the yacht.It’s all up and up; he’s got a separate room.
But—and then we don’t see him till we’re catching the plane home!And as I say, we’re catching the plane home, and I’m sitting next to him in the plane, and he says, “I made up my mind, Fred; I’m going to law school at Syracuse.”You’ve got to be kidding!I said: “Number one, it’s cold, Joe.Do you know that?It’s cold in Syracuse!But number two, it’s—we’ve got to work on finishing school.”
But yeah, and he said he was going to marry her.Going to marry her!He met her for a week in Nassau!You know.Sure enough, he did. …
Biden’s First Senate Run
When he’s running for the Senate, were you surprised that 29-year-old Joe Biden, your old pal, is running for the United States Senate?
Floored.Totally floored!He was a county councilman.He had run—he was two years in county council.… We clearly didn’t think Joe had any chance.[J. Caleb] Boggs was just so well liked, and he was just a genuinely nice guy. …
How does he do it?What kind of a candidate is he?Super knowledgeable?I mean, he’s not a brainiac; we’ve all agreed to that.Is it style and substance?What is it that Joe does?
It’s an issues man figuring out what issues are important, to me, what important issues are important to the people that are going to vote for him.And he makes no bones about where he stands.It’s not like if he’s a union supporter and somebody says, “I can’t support you because you’re a union supporter,” he’s not going to stand there and say, “Well, listen, let me hear what you say, and maybe I’ll sort of waver.”No, no, no.“I am there.I am there.”And that strength that he projects, that he is for the people, the—and I don’t want to—I shouldn’t say it, but the little guy or the average Joe, is—and people of color, Hispanic, Black, whatever, he was always there.And he’s one of those guys that can look you in the eye and you believe he is sincere; you believe he is honestly empathizing with your position and understand—or wants to try to understand your position and believes in your position.And he really doesn’t waver very much, really very little there.
And I just think that when you have somebody that projects—especially as a politician.So many of them is just glad-handing and waving.And he’s constantly working, constantly working.He’s everywhere, everywhere.And of course, in later years he had Beau and Hunter helping him, and his daughter as well.But he’s just—if you have a man of the people in Delaware, he is truly a man of the people. …
Biden’s Marriage to Neilia
Tell me about Neilia and Joe and as a couple.How was that marriage?How close was it?
I think it was everything to him.And I mean, look, I can’t remember, and you probably know, if you look back in the record, I never counted the years, how many years they were actually married.But three kids in that period of time.I mean, she wasn’t exactly out doing a lot of things in the community or whatever.I mean, she was raising babies.And he was very proud of that, very proud of that, and very proud that he was starting his law career, and she was a perfect match for him.It was—I can’t even imagine—I can’t even imagine going through that at any time in your life, let alone at that stage in your life, to all of a sudden—and who comes in?Who comes in to take care of everything and make sure everything’s all right and you go to Washington?Val.
Beau Biden’s Illness and Death
Let’s talk about Beau and Beau’s death.Tell me about their relationship first.
So special, so special.Beau was a straight arrow as well.I’m sure you’ve heard the things.When Beau passed away, they made the rubber thing, wristband to put around your [wrist], and it basically said, “What would Beau do?”It had the initials, “What would…”: WWBD?Basically, some of the buddies of Beau who grew up with him would say when they were out doing some stuff, maybe a little crazier than they should be doing, and Beau would say, “No, no, no, we’ve got to cool it here and get back together, and somebody who hasn’t been drinking has to be driving, and I’ll drive,” and blah, blah, blah.And they all listened to him.And he was brought up that way.And he had tremendous respect from so many people, so many of his friends and people in Delaware.
Of course, he stayed in the National Guard the whole time and has respect over there.And he was going to be governor.There’s no ifs, ands or buts about it.He was going to be governor of Delaware and follow his path.He won the attorney general job very easily and just so well respected in the community.
How did Joe Biden handle the death of his beloved son?
I think it was really a challenge, really a challenge.And he had a lot of soul searching to do.Without Jill and the family, I don’t know where he’d be with that, even.But you know, I loved his line that he has used repeatedly, and somehow through his faith, through his faith, through his Catholic faith, no question about that being there.And certainly you have to question your faith when something like that happens.But when he said, “As time goes on, there are going to be more smiles than tears.”And that’s so true.And it’s so true, so true today when you think about Beau, really.I mean, we just think about all the good times and—he was, I was very friendly with him.I’ve got a couple pictures of Beau and I in my office at home.And whenever I had to call on him as attorney general—it was never for a legal thing.I ran a thing for high school kids at the Community Foundation to do some stuff, juniors and seniors, and I wanted a speaker to come over and talk to them about the concerns about, at the time, all your friends on internet or on Facebook to the point that they weren’t all your friends.But I need somebody like the attorney general to spell that out to them.And regardless of his schedule, with young kids and running the attorney general’s office, “Pick the date, Fred, and I’ll be there.”I mean, that’s just the way he was.
Biden as Grief Counselor
One of the things we recognize about Joe Biden is his, especially as he got older and older, is his ability to be a kind of grief counselor to people, literally people around the world.And in lots of ways maybe that’s his strongest calling card in this particular election.Where does that come from, Fred?
I think it’s the experience, for starters.He clearly went through—nobody’s been—I— I’m 77 years old.I’ve never known anybody to be through two such horrific, tragic experiences with their children and their wife in my life.I know there are thousands of people that have, but nobody that I can think of has ever done that.And also, if they have, people that have nobody as visible to the world, as visible to the whole United States had to go through that with your—everybody questioning, everybody thinking, everybody wanting your comments, everybody feeling sorry for you, expressing their condolences, but still you—people can say, “I’m sorry; you have our deepest sympathy” and everything else, they can say that till the cows come home.You’ve got to—you’re the one that has to deal with it, and your family has to deal with it.And it is tough.It is tough.
As I say, I don’t—I’ve played golf a few times with Joe, but we’re not like out together on a regular basis.But I am out together on a very regular basis, two or three times a week, with Beau’s father-in-law, Ron Olivere, and I can still tell how it affects him.And there’s a guy who nobody even—wasn’t that visible or anything else.But when it happens with your—with a son-in-law or your son and it affects your kids and your grandkids and your daughter, I mean, it’s just something you don’t get over easily, for sure.
So the Joe Biden you knew, first met at the country club and now you see him standing there, asking America to give him their vote for president, who is that guy standing there now, and do you recognize the old Joe?
Absolutely.100%.And I say that as honestly as I possibly can.I mean, I can’t say that, when we met down at the U of D and in Nassau and everything else I thought, hey, this guy’s going to be president someday, by any stretch of the imagination.But he’s still the same guy.He’s still—he’s still so genuine to me.Now a lot of people say, oh, some of the stuff he does is just phony or whatever.And maybe it’s just because I’ve been so close to him through the years.
I saw him back in the fall of November, before he was starting to run.Hunter, his grandson, goes to the same school that my granddaughter goes to and had Grandparents’ Day there.And he went for Grandparents’ Day.Now, he didn’t go with the tour to every class, but he went for the final ceremony where they had a performance of whatever.And afterwards, he went out with the family to the local restaurant, and I happened to go.I left my grandchild in school, but I went and went to the same place, and he saw me.And he’s sitting here with his family, and he said, “Fred, come over and sit down; I want to talk to you.”I said: “Joe, you don’t get five minutes with your family.Please, talk to your family.Be with your family.You and I can talk anytime.”But that’s the way he was.It was just—it was just that way.And it wasn’t like he was forgetting them.He knew I knew all of them.“Just join us.”
It’s just the way he is all the time.And that’s the way he was when he was 18 years old.People just gravitate to him, and he respects that.He doesn’t take that for granted, whatsoever.
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