The FRONTLINE Interviews
Gary Hart
D-Colorado
Gary Hart served as a U.S. senator from Colorado from 1975 to 1987. In 1988 he sought the Democratic nomination for president, running against Joe Biden, among others.
The following interview was conducted by FRONTLINE’s Michael Kirk on June 16, 2020. It has been edited for clarity and length.
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Biden’s Early Political Career
So here is where we’re going to start.It’s ’72.The McGovern campaign is underway.Joe Biden in Delaware, 29-year-old Joe Biden in Delaware is running for the Senate against Caleb Boggs, very experienced six-term United States senator.Did you ever come across Joe Biden? …
You know, I do not—it’s not impossible that our paths crossed during that period.But I was in and out of the McGovern headquarters a lot.I did not always travel with the candidate.And therefore, George McGovern may have, I'm sure, made appearances in Delaware, with the candidate Joe Biden.But I don’t think I was along at that time.My first—my first recollection with then-Sen. Biden was when I appeared in the Senate in January of ’75 to take the oath, and I met him formally then.
Had you heard of him before that?… Was he the bright young future, like you were, of the Democratic Party or what?
I don’t think I was the bright young future at that point anyway, if ever.But of course everyone knew who he was because of his age, but I would say also because of his family tragedy.It’s very well known that he lost his wife and I think at least one child, and one of the boys that survived was badly injured, if not both of them.And that put him on the front pages.So the combination of being so young and just barely eligible to take his seat, and then having that tragedy after the election, made everyone familiar with who he was.
… When you're young, you’ve had a tragedy—I mean, you're 30 years old.… What was that probably like for young 30-year-old Joe Biden?What was it like to go into the United States Senate in those years?
Well, I joined him two years later.I was a bit older, a few years older than Joe, but still very young.And so I can only—I can't say how it was for him.But in my case, it was jaw-dropping, in a way, to be intermingling with figures that you had only seen on television and had heard about almost in legendary terms.But on both sides of the aisle, there were some very, very big figures there, both on the Democratic and the Republican side.And my own reflection, years later, is that we have yet to recover that caliber of leadership in the Senate that we had in those days.Many of those senior senators, committee chairs and so forth, had played roles in World War II and were veterans, very well known from public appearances, previous candidacies, television interviews and so forth.So I think for both of us, if I may include me, or any young senator, it was—it took a while to get used to, but you got used to it very fast.
They took care of him, … the older gentlemen literally helping him, talking to him in very unique and in some cases emotional and personal ways.Does that surprise you to hear?
No.I was aware of a little of it.And some of us had side conversations about Joe and his situation, about how in any way we could be of help to him and understanding of him.But I must say, on his behalf, he did not seek sympathy or any special degree of treatment, given his tragedy or his age.And I found him to be integrated into the work of the Senate.Of course, he had two years on me, so he was pretty familiar with the committee system, with the personalities of the senators on both sides.And of course, everybody knows he has a very engaging personality.
So I think he went out of his way to establish personal relationships with all kinds of senators on all sides of the spectrum.And I know he has been criticized in recent years for having anything to do with senators from the Deep South, many of whom had segregationist records.But how else do you do business in the Senate at that time?Because many, if not most of those senior Southern senators were Democratic and were committee chairs on which we both served.So you had no choice but to treat people with dignity and respect who had been elected by the voters of their states, to represent them, in some cases a number of times, and deal with them as they were and not shy away simply because they had these traditional Southern sentiments.
If you would have made a statement, if Joe would have tried to make a statement, say, “I'm not going to work with you, [Strom] Thurmond or Sen. [John] Stennis,” what would have happened?1
Oh, it would have been a disaster for him.And I think there is a word that’s often used by experts, and it’s called comity.And it has to do with serving in a mixed body at a very, very visible level and managing to get along with people whom you fundamentally disagree with on some very basic issues.And you have no choice in the Senate.If you—if you decide you're going to not deal with a quarter or a third of the Senate, you're not going to get anything done.
Biden’s 1987 Presidential Bid
By ’87 he thinks it’s time.He’s been in 15 years.You think it’s time.You’ve been in 13 years.… Now it’s your turn in lots of ways.Was Joe prepared to be president at the time?Did he have what it took?Or what did you have that he didn’t have?
It’s a popular phrase to be prepared to be president.I was—unlike President Clinton, I did not decide at the age of 11 that I was going to be president.My political life was coincidental, in many ways almost accidental.I had never run for political office before running for the Senate at the age of 36.So in a way, he and I were alike in that regard.
… I purposely or accidentally prepared myself for national leadership and let those chips fall where they may.I think in Joe’s case, he had done pretty much the same—same thing.But there were not only the two of us; there were a whole new generation of Democrats coming forward in ’87 to seek the presidency, I think as many as half dozen or more.And the ultimate outcome, of course, was Gov. [Michael] Dukakis of Massachusetts.
… So once you're out, and Joe steps forward, and there are others, of course, as you mentioned, who were derisively called by some wag the “Seven Dwarfs,” where is Joe on that list of seven in terms of what he’s offering, what his chances were, and what his issues were?Who was Joe Biden, the candidate, at that moment?
I think his youth was a plus.People were looking for new leadership and younger leadership and not the old leadership in both parties, but particularly in the Democratic Party.So youth was on his side.He had prepared himself certainly in foreign affairs and international relations.He had traveled considerably.He had sat in on years of hearings before the Foreign Relations Committee.And I think most of the critics, if you will, or those who comment on candidacies, believe that he, albeit somewhat young, was still qualified to be president, at least had passed the minimum threshold to be president.
… So then, as the story goes, John Sasso, Dukakis’ chief of staff during the campaign, gets a tape of Joe Biden in Iowa talking about—and basically not crediting the significant elements of a speech by a British politician, Neil Kinnock.… Talk to me a little bit about your reaction to what was happening to Joe Biden at that moment and whether you thought it was justified to hammer him for the “plagiarism.”
Well, I think Matt Bai’s observation is sound and even profound, that a Rubicon had been passed in terms of the role of the press.And why that’s, if you will, dangerous is because it exposes candidates to manipulated circumstances that they have had no control over, or the possibility of a minor misstep, that I think in this case using that quote, in the grand scheme of things, was minor and should not have disqualified Joe at that point.But it is what it is.
The point is that when I stepped aside from the race, not under pressure but voluntarily, because I could see what was coming, and there was no end to it, I made a statement in which I said, if we continue down the path that started that week in May of ’87, “We will get the kind of leaders we deserve.”And history has proved that to be prophetic.
Did you ever talk to Joe about it, about the—
Not directly.Only in passing and more in the context of how politics and the role of the media had changed at that crucial point.’87 was quite—nobody’s really done a history of that year, but they should.It was the year that I think Rupert Murdoch arrived on our shores, or at least began to build his empire.And it was the beginning—and it was the year that Ronald Reagan took away the Fairness Doctrine, which had protected fair and balanced truly for generations.And the media changed.
And a lot of the traditional media found it had no choice but to compete for audiences, in print and electronic audiences.It had to follow the lead of what is now the Fox system.And that has fundamentally changed the caliber and quality of leadership in America.
It doesn’t sound like the Joe Biden of 1987 was a guy equipped to do whatever would be necessary to be on Fox Television.
None of us were.I mean, we were veterans of Huntley-Brinkley and all the old famous media names, including in the print press, and that changed almost overnight. …
Biden’s 2008 Presidential Bid
… He decides to run for the second time in 2008.There is a gaffe, of course, because he’s Joe Biden.And the gaffe is what he says about Barack Obama, clean and neat or whatever he says, clean and presentable or something, taken by many in the press, again, waiting perhaps for a “gotcha” moment, takes a little heat for it.Obama forgives him, but he—it gets him started on the wrong foot again.Your thoughts?
Well, given 12 years of experience, serving with him closely and working with him closely on a number of things, people like me just say, that’s Joe being Joe, and provide forgiveness like that.You can't be a practitioner at a national level in politics and get—you know, if it’s consequential, then that individual who is responsible has to explain it.If it’s a Joe being Joe, then life goes on.And I think many of us who knew him just said that’s Joe being Joe.There was nothing deeper or sinister or evil.He just says what comes into his mind.A lot of people might think that’s refreshing.
… If I said to you, a lot of people said, well, he’s a really good guy, great on the stump, gives a good speech, back slapper, and, you know, energetic, has a great back story, sad, great back story, but there's no “there” there.It’s the old “Where’s the beef?,” right?
Well, that’s more appropriate for some people than others.It wasn’t appropriate for me.I had more speeches and books and position papers than you could count.The genius, if you want to say that, about that Mondale line was that he knew I couldn’t compress it into a sound bite.That was—it wasn’t that there was no beef.It’s that, how do you make a commercial out of all this military reform, globalization, the industrial—the information revolution It goes on and on what I was talking about—the environment and climate, even in those days.
I would put Joe on that scale, closer to Bill Clinton.What was the Clinton campaign about?I mean, what was—what was the centerpiece of the Clinton candidacy?I can't remember.
I can tell you.You know what it was?“It's the economy, stupid.”Remember, they boiled it down to one half—
OK, that’s my point.So what are you going to do about it, is the question, isn't it?I say: “Oh, the economy is really important.What are you going to do about it?”That’s the beef.
Right.
What I'm saying is, there are candidates who use the force of their personalities more than others.That’s Clinton and Biden.And then there is me, who had the tagline in the press of—what was it, “Cool and aloof”?I never understood that. …
Biden as Vice President
OK.So it’s ’08.He’s obviously not going to get traction.He gets about 1% in Iowa despite the fact that I think, you know, a lot of people tell us he was really good on the campaign trail.… But it was change was in the air, and Obama wins Iowa.And eventually Obama asks Biden to be his vice president.What's the meaning of that for Joe Biden?What do you think the decision would have been for him about being vice president? …
I think you just answered your own question.What he saw was a young, four-year—three- or four-year senator who didn’t know all the things he knew and that he could not be a vice president brought in for photo ops when needed, but he could play a substantive role, and particularly on the Hill, persuading members of Congress, both houses, to go along with the Obama agenda.So Joe was creative enough and imaginative enough to know that he could make a big deal out of the vice presidency under those circumstances.And I believe he did.
And to his credit, with maybe one or two minor exceptions, he accepted the second-fiddle role, if you will.Wouldn’t be always easy for him, because his instincts were to jump forward and speak out.I am—given a long history with Joe, I commended him for how he behaved those eight years, because a lot of it were he had to smother his own—his own instincts.
Yeah, he sure did.He finds race, interestingly, because it’s a black president, but he finds race as one of the territories he can operate in, partly because the president can't, or feels he can't.And so there's Joe, who’s doing more than just going to funerals, which a lot of vice presidents are fairly adept at.But he stays.He’s the grief counselor in Ferguson and in Trayvon Martin and in other moments.There's a historic moment of him at the New York Police Department, the funeral of two New York police officers who have been murdered.It’s like he’s almost evolving into this role of—and maybe out of his own back story—of grief counselor.
It’s a very astute observation.I think you're absolutely right.It’s not a role—it’s certainly not a traditional political role for anyone.I can't remember in my lifetime a vice president who even came close to playing that role.After the Kennedy assassination, Lyndon Johnson had to play the role as the new president.And people can reach their conclusions about that.But there was a lot of grief going around in those days that you have documented.And it came—to respond to that came naturally to Joe, for obvious reasons.And it continues on today, because there's a lot of grief in this country, and it’s not going to go away tomorrow or even with the election.It is race; it is injustice; it is inequality; it is economics.It’s all those things.The agenda is very long, and I believe he’s equipped to handle it.
Biden’s Personal Grief
In ’15 he realizes—he thinks he should run again for that thing he’s been aiming for, he says since he was a little kid.… His son Beau dies.He’s formed this deep, he thinks, deep and personal relationship with President Obama.But Obama chooses Hillary.Obama discourages Joe from running for the presidency in 2016.Why do you think?
Don’t know.I don’t know.And any response I could give would just be to hazard a guess.And I just don’t know what went on with that.
I can relate one experience.I was, in those years, ’14, ’15, ’16, I was the last envoy—U.S. envoy to Northern Ireland, and I found myself in the White House on St. Patrick’s Day, March ’16.And I had a private conversation with Vice President Biden then, and I said to him, “As much as I admire your public service over the years, I admire your courage in tragedy even more.”
He started down the hall away from the Oval Office towards his own office and asked me to follow him, which I did.We then had a 20- or 30-minute very emotional conversation in his office, very emotional.I have a son, John Hart, who was Beau’s age, is Beau’s age had Beau lived.I knew Beau.I knew both the Biden sons.And the conversation wasn’t about politics.It was about fatherhood and tragedy.
I was a graduate of divinity school, was raised in a very religious household and college, and I still have the feelings about human tragedy.And I think he understood that, understood that I understood what was going on in his mind.But that’s indelible.I cannot think of Joe now without remembering that experience. …
Seems like running for president, when you're feeling that way, he was obviously going though grief when you were talking to him.It would have exacted such a price from him to do what you have to do to run, carrying that grief and not having dealt with it yet in all the ways you must deal with it?
Yeah.He’ll never get over it.None of us would.
Yeah.
But particularly, particularly against the backdrop of what happened to his first family. …
[At the start of the 2020 campaign], Joe seemed really on his heels.Not only did he seem a little rusty in those first debates, but he was really on his heels at that moment.
Well, the game has changed.The game has changed, and not for the better.And when I said what I said when I stepped aside, “We’re going to get the kind of leaders we deserve,” it was because of this hammer and tongs.A new industry has grown up in this country.I was a volunteer for George McGovern.The new industry is called strategists, strategists.Everybody is a strategist, including 23-year-olds who just graduated from college.So the strategy is, go to war.And I think Joe wasn’t prepared for it, and neither was I.
His age is an issue.Should it be?
Seventy is the new 60.
Well, I'm glad to hear that, Senator.
So am I.
The old issues that cropped up, we talked about them when we were talking about the Senate, and Stennis and [James] Eastland and others, Thurmond, Strom Thurmond.What does he do about that?What can he do about that?What do we make of the—can he apologize?Is that going to work?Should he?
No.No, that was then; this is now.This country—I mean, it’s a truism to say the country is in trouble.We’re in profound trouble: hundreds of thousands of people still on the march; Black lives ending virtually every day at the hands of police all over the country.We have a man in the White House who is, for all practical purposes, out of control.And this is a desperate situation.So, going back 30 or more years, apologizing over and over again, I knew Jim Eastland.I served on the Armed Services Committee under John Stennis.I knew them all.I got along with them.Some of them even voted for some of my initiatives, particularly on military reform.But life goes on.Am I going to apologize for dealing with duly elected United States senators?No.
He gets—it looks like he doesn’t have a chance against Trump about six or eight months ago, seven months.The polls are all bad.… It felt like Trump was moving in this new, powerful reelection mode.And then … coronavirus takes the president by surprise, and what's happened around George Floyd’s murder, and that scene at the Lafayette Square as they move the protesters out of the way so that he can go to a photo op.It seems—and Joe, meanwhile, is locked in the basement with a mask on, right?It might be actually an advantage to Joe Biden that the president is so exposed with those afternoon press conferences on COVID… .
You cannot say events occur that the president is not prepared for.Presidents have to be prepared for anything and everything.This president was particularly unprepared because he has been, for three and a half years, dismantling the civil service of this country in health care, in education and increasingly in the military.Career military officers and enlisted personnel are civil servants.They’re military service, but every aspect of this government, this president has been taking down.So he not only wasn’t prepared, he had gone out of his way not to be prepared.And that’s why the polls are showing what they are showing.He is not—he is coming apart in office.And if I were Joe Biden, I would do everything I can to give speeches as to how I would manage these things.But somebody has said this election is Trump against Trump, and that may be the case. …
The Choice Between Biden and Trump
So now my last question to you, Senator, it’s the one we ask every four years, and here it is: What's the choice?
Oh, it’s night and day.Night and day.Does Joe Biden have faults?Yes.Does everybody running for president have faults?Yes.Everybody.Does Donald Trump have faults?It will take decades to sort out the damage he has done to this country, at home and abroad, for the past three and a half years.And the American people are waking up to it.We haven't even talked about climate change, which is the next big disaster, the next big pandemic.And he’s buried it and paid no attention to it.
We’re going to have—we’re going to have future pandemics, simply because, if nothing else, he has dismantled the United States’ capability to anticipate and control them.So long after he’s gone back to Mar-a-Lago or wherever, we’re going to have more pandemics.The Biden presidency is going to be one of the most difficult presidencies in this nation’s history, because he will have to rebuild all the agencies, the civil service, the talented scientists that have been managing the laws passed by Congress—not creating programs by themselves, but managing laws passed by Congress—and repairing all the damage done to our foreign affairs and our relationships with our democratic allies.I pray for Joe Biden and all those around him, because they are going to have a hell of a job ahead.
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