The FRONTLINE Interviews
Jen O’Malley Dillon
Biden Campaign Manager
Jen O’Malley Dillon served as manager of Joe Biden’s 2020 and 2024 presidential campaigns. She also worked as White House deputy chief of staff from 2021 to 2024. She is currently the chair of Kamala Harris’s presidential campaign.
The following interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on May 29, 2024, prior to Joe Biden’s withdrawal from the presidential race. It has been edited for clarity and length.
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Biden’s 2020 Campaign
Let me go back to the beginning of the 2020 campaign.Can you tell me about the moment when he asked you to be involved in the campaign, and why?
Yeah.It's definitely in the way-back machine a bit.But when the president [Joe Biden] and I talked at that time, I was living in Texas with my family, and the thing that I remember most about that first conversation was that he was so anchored in why he was running, and didn't get to, “Here’s what we need on the campaign; here’s the tactics we need; this is what we're looking for,” but really was focused on what compelled him to get into the race to beginning, what he was most focused on, why he felt like this was such a critical inflection point for the country, and how he really saw his vision versus what Donald Trump had driven the country through.
So to me, I really came away from that first conversation feeling just so clear that he knew why he was running.He understood, in his own mind, what was at stake.And really, he also spent a lot of time talking about who he was fighting for.And one of the things—I certainly only know the president from working for him on this campaign, and I had the chance to work for him in the 2012 and 2008 races as well—but my background is similar to his. And I had a father who is an Irish Catholic public school teacher, came up, didn’t always have all the things that he wished he could provide for the family and really fought to find his own ways to be engaged in public service.And I really had a clear sense that I understood who the president was fighting for.I understood his vision, and I felt compelled to join the campaign from that conversation on.
… One of the big questions we've had about both the candidates is: "Why?"And for Joe Biden, there's the why in 2020, but there's also the why over a lifetime.He's run multiple times for the presidency.What is it that drives him?He had failed a couple times at running, and he decided not to run in 2016, but does run in 2020.What's the answer to the why question?
Well, I honestly believe the president really does wake up every morning and think about what people are going through in their lives.I think when you're in Washington, D.C., it's so easy to get caught in a bubble, or to be caught in the chattering class of the process of politics.But the thing that I respect most about President Biden, and I really felt it from the first time I started working for him in the campaign, he really anchors himself and his leadership in thinking not about the most powerful people, but thinking about a family sitting at a table, struggling day to day, and what those conversations are and how he can make their lives better.
And I also think he's always been anchored by the idea that, whether you're a Democrat or a Republican doesn't make you good or bad.It makes you an American with a point of view and that you have to respect those points of view and find ways to come together.And I think the American people see that in him.That's in part why he was able to get so much done as president. But I also think he believes in the power and strength of coming together as a country to deliver for those people in their lives, to make their lives just that much better, and really not in all the big ways, not talking about big pieces of legislation, but really the small things that help every day feel better for them.
What was it like running that campaign when all of a sudden COVID happens in the middle of it, and did it play to something about Joe Biden as you watched that happen?
Yeah.My actual first day on the campaign was the day we went into lockdown across the country, so it was a very crazy time for everyone.And I think in part, because we were building a campaign as people were living through something that none of us had ever gone through, it all brought us together in many ways, but it also really showed the strength of the president.
And one of the things that I remember most about the time on the campaign is that the president, then-Vice President Biden, had to both be a candidate for president and also serve as the voice of what, I think, a president needed to speak to the American people at that time.And the moments that he stood up and spoke—there's moments around what was happening with George Floyd's death; there was moments around COVID and people just not knowing what's going to happen—and Donald Trump wasn't speaking to them; he wasn't making anyone feel more comfortable about the path forward.And it really came to the president to do that.
And I think back to that time and how uncertain and chaotic it felt, and even before the president won, he was standing in the void of chaos that Trump had laid before our feet, and chose to be the stable leader and voice of the American people.And I think that campaign was unique, of course, because of where we were based and our location, but the work was no different, and the president himself was so laser-focused on what we had to do for the American people and how we had to communicate with them during that time of crisis that I really believe that his leadership then helped instill all the votes he had and built out his readiness for the moment once he took office.
Biden Campaigns on “Soul of the Nation”
One thing people have told us that was striking about that campaign, too, was the language that he used, talking about the soul of the nation, and lightness and dark, in the convention.And people said that wasn't traditional sort of Joe Biden rhetoric that he's employing.Where was that coming from?It almost has religious overtones when he talks about the soul of the nation.
I think that, honestly, as I look back to the time I worked for the president, I think that the fight for the soul of the nation, building the backbone of this country, those have been core pillars to what brought him to run for office to begin with in 2020, and has continued to be his focus as he's led.I think, though, sometimes when you have campaigns, it's a difference of an opinion.It's a policy point of view, and you can have a discussion about that.But I think the president saw clearly from the beginning this was so much more than that.It really was a choice for the American people about a path forward that built on all the things we believe as American people.And the president says this all the time.It's an idea, one we haven't fully achieved yet, but he is more hopeful than anyone and optimistic about the path ahead versus a MAGA extreme point of view of true darkness, of really looking out for yourself and sowing fear and chaos instead of stability and a way to unify people.
And so I think it was something he saw very clearly at the beginning.I think he continues to see that clearly.And I think that normal course of language or just politics as usual just didn't fit the bill.And that's both why he decided to run to begin with and why he continues forward, because that work and that choice are still so stark.
And that framing was him?That wasn't the speechwriter or a suggestion?
No.I mean, Joe Biden—if you know President Biden, Joe Biden as the candidate, President Biden, he is very clear on the language and the point of view and the vision that he has for this country, and so he really felt that in his core.As I mentioned, when I talked to him about that first conversation about whether I was going to join the campaign or not, I really came away feeling from him, from his gut, that he had a sense of what was happening in the country and what we needed to do.And that was all him.
Biden Wins in 2020
Can you take me to the moment when it becomes clear that he has won the election?We're telling the story of his life, and he's tried multiple times, but as you just described it, the stakes were incredibly high, too.I don't know if you were with him or talked to him.Just help me understand that moment.
Well, it was very unusual in many ways, right? Because the race was not called immediately, and so we spent that time—on Election Day, many of us spent time with him at his home.We spent time back and forth, giving him updates, talking through what's happening.Obviously we knew that it would take time for the full results to come in because of the way votes were being counted and different methods in different places.But we stayed very close over those next few days.I think it ended up being four days when it was actually called.
And I was actually—I was in Wilmington, Delaware, and I was out on a run, and so I was taking a break myself personally, and my daughters were the ones that gave me the news.So I ran right back to the hotel and immediately talked to the president and the first lady.And I remember that conversation, and I think I was one of the first people to call him “President-elect.” And you just could hear both the sense of pride in the family and celebration that we've been able to do this together, but also the resolve he had knowing what was in front of him.He's a very serious and thoughtful leader, and even in that moment of celebration, that came through to me.
I know during that period, through the transition, that the campaign [was] sort of calculating about what they say publicly.And we've been trying to figure out what was his reaction to Donald Trump saying, “Joe Biden didn't win the election.He rigged it.He stole it.” It's almost—it's a challenge to democracy.It's also a personal challenge to Biden.What's his reaction to that as it's happening?
… This goes back a little bit to the campaign, where I felt like he often had to be the voice of what a president should be saying, even when he hadn't won the election yet.And I think, as he was focused on coming through that window of time, he wanted to ensure that we communicated as far and wide about how strong our election systems were, how every vote was counted, and really continued to show the confidence that he felt in our system.That really was very important to him, and it was very important for everyone that was working for him, that no matter what would happen, what was in front of us, it was very important to make sure that we continued to communicate what he felt, that the bedrock of this democracy was strong and it was going to stay strong, and that was as important, whether he was candidate Joe Biden, President-elect Joe Biden, or President Joe Biden.
Is any of it personal, though?It's about him?Then he watches Jan.6.It's the Senate that he'd spent his life serving in, to see those events play out?
Well, I think all of it's personal in that he is thinking about those very people he grew up with, the very people that he believes in that this country should work for—the middle class, “the bottom up, the middle out.” You've heard him say that.But I also think he immediately, better than anyone, better than I, better than any of us, understood what was on his shoulders.He was the vice president before.He had been a senator before.He knows that this business is not a business.This is about keeping our country together in a time where he was most focused on: How do we move forward on vaccines?How do we ensure that we are rebuilding this country?
So I think that, of course, he's going to take this in in his own way, but I think what was so personal and unique to him was this clear understanding that really only he had about what it was going to take to lead this country through such a stark time and such a difficult moment, and I think he just straightened his back up and moved forward, and that's sort of, I think, who he has always been.
In that moment, I understand you're there in the Oval Office as he comes in and becomes president.What's his demeanor, his outlook?It's a job that changes people.What is that moment like?
Well, I think that honestly, as I look back on that day of him taking office, I just remember one, of course, things were a little different than they would normally be in an inauguration because of COVID, but he immediately had to get to work and really was—I was almost struck.I mean, this was my first time being in government, and it was my first time, obviously, working this closely with a president, and there was no time to sit back and reflect.It was really a focus on: How do we do the job?How do we swear in the staff?How do we work through ensuring that we have the supply that we need to build on the COVID vaccination work that was underway?
And I really saw him just start immediately to do the job.I also saw him at moments with his family, and I think that's something that really is so much a part of who he is, too.Obviously, there have been many stories told about what he's gone through in his life and family.But the president had said to me personally, to those of us that have worked with him, how important family is and that he believes that we all should have an opportunity to make sure that, if we have to go do something with our kids or our family, that that is very important.And he really set that from day one.Despite all the craziness surrounding us and all the new jobs everyone had and figuring out what we were all doing, he made sure to remind everyone that he saw how important our full lives are and that he wanted to ensure that we both did the job we had, and we knew how hard it was going to be, but we also spent time taking care of our family as we needed it.And that was something he said during the campaign.It was something that me, with three little kids, it mattered a great deal.But it really meant to me that he never loses his humanity, even in the moments of the highest professional responsibility that he carries.
Crises During Year One
What did it feel like, when you look back at that first year or two, right, there's COVID; there's new variants; there's the withdrawal from Afghanistan; there's eventually Ukraine; inflation; supply chain—what did it feel like?Did it feel like constant crises in that it was sort of an unprecedented time?
Truly.I think that I would say, first and foremost, I thank God that Joe Biden was president, and I don't mean that as a person who worked for him and admires him.I mean that in he really had to call on every ounce of his experience, every ounce of who he was to bring this country back together and to get things done as fast as he was able.I had the benefit of traveling overseas with him.I've traveled to Ukraine and Israel during times when no American president has ever gone to an area of that nature during a war.I have seen him travel overseas and stand with leaders of the world and see them all look to him and him reassure them and him be the leader to these global leaders.
So I really felt like there was nobody that was better equipped to be president and to navigate such turmoil than President Biden, and also to do it in a way that really was about how we could all come together as people.And I think that that's something that is so important to how he was able to achieve so much of what he achieved, because he wasn't willing to put labels on people.He wasn't willing to say, “I'm not going to work with you.” He always worked with people with respect.
When we went to Asia for a trip in the last couple years, it happened to coincide on our return with the terrible tragedy in Uvalde, Texas.I remember having traveled with the president a lot.Often we wished that he would rest on a return overseas trip, and he, in fact, never does.He's always working on the return home.But I had the unfortunate responsibility of telling him what was happening with Uvalde, and he immediately—and this was the middle of the night, after a very long trip overseas, different time zones—immediately got on the phone with Gov.Abbott, immediately got on the phone with our homeland security adviser to talk through: What do we know?What's happening?
And he set foot on the ground in the United States, walked back to the White House, and gave a speech to the American people, to speak to them.He was in Uvalde grieving with families that weekend, and just a few months after that, he helped lead a bipartisan group of elected officials in Congress to pass gun legislation for the first time in 30 years.And I think that really sums up how he leads.He doesn't lead by believing that people are bad.He leads by bringing people together, by standing and speaking and being a voice in a time of crisis, by also being empathetic and understanding what people are going through and looking in their eyes and being there for them and then doing something about it.I think that that really is unique to him and his abilities, but also really reflects how he approached such a tumultuous time in our country and his leadership.
Is it frustrating?Because you also pay attention, especially now, to the political side, and there's how you see him managing the crises.There's also all the legislation, the stimulus, the infrastructure, the Inflation Reduction Act, the CHIPS [Creating Helpful Incentives to Produce Semiconductors], act.But there's also the polls, and there's a sense of a lot of Americans not seeing that or not crediting him for that.Is that frustrating?How do you view that dynamic?
Well, look, I think just talking through all the things that the president went through, that this country went through in the first couple years, these are monumental moments in our country and in people's lives that were seismic shifts, and that changed who we are as a country.It changes our perspective, and it creates a lot of instability, and I think that people can't be expected to go through that and not be changed.
I think, at the same time, there's so much progress that we've made, but the president would be the first to say there's so much more to come.And he knows that while we've been able to lower the costs of prescription drugs and have significant housing solutions that bring down costs, people are still feeling that, and there is more work to be done.But he also, I think, believes in his core that our job, his job as president isn't to just talk about or focus on the big kind of legislative pieces of business that he's been able to get through, but to really break that down into talking about why that matters to someone in their lives.He so often says to us, “Don't tell me what the numbers are.Tell me about the impact we're making on someone's life.”
And so I think that our belief is that it is completely understandable that there is still uncertainty and fear coming out of COVID in the last several years, seeing the stark choice in front of the American people and the fact that what we're seeing with Donald Trump is in the news day in and day out, that is going to continue to be something that we have to break through and tell the story on.
But his belief rests in the belief of the American people, and when they have had an opportunity over the last few years to vote about a path and a choice in front of them, they have always chosen President Biden's path, and we are confident that we'll be able to do that again.
Would Biden Run Again?
Was there ever a question that he would run again?Was that a decision that he made, or was that there from the beginning?
It was never a question.I think, look, if you go back to why he ran in the first place, President Biden isn't running for himself.He's running because he sees what's happening in this country, and he truly believes the soul of this nation is in question.And that isn't hyperbole, as he would say.It really is a stark contrast, and I think for him—you've heard him say this, but I think he knows it to be true—he is the only person who's ever beaten Donald Trump before.And this country really is on the brink of a person in Donald Trump, who's talking about revenge and retribution, who is focused on himself and not the American people, and that is not the country that American citizens need or deserve; that they, I think, and the president believes that we are a hopeful nation, and that there is real work to be done, and if we set our minds to it, there's nothing we can't do, as he says.
So he has always been committed to that.I think he sees the stakes in this election just as high as they were in 2020, if not more so, and he's committed to that.
Biden’s Age
As you know, there's the critics—some of them are on the left as well—of him running at this age, the questions surrounding that, about whether that affects his ability to win.How does he view those questions?Does he take it seriously, or is he dismissive of it?
I think the president has spoken publicly about his age.I think sometimes, he makes fun of himself.Even, I think, our first ad we did in March of this year, coming out of the State of the Union, he talked about how he isn't a young guy, and I think he's the first to acknowledge that.But I also think that what the president believes is also what I believe and what I see up close.I have had the great fortune to get to work for this president, and as a candidate and now president, day in and day out for the last five years, and he has basically run circles around me.I would love to tell you that I am perfectly prepared at every turn to be able to answer the questions that he has.I'm a pretty smart, capable person; I multitask pretty well, and I honestly am never prepared for the depth of a conversation that I have with him because of his experience, because of his knowledge, because of his practical application of this stuff.
So I think he believes, as do I, as he believes the American people are going to be looking for who can do this job, who can bring stability and continue to point forward, who is fighting for people just like my family and the people that he grew up with?And that is so much more than a number.And I think at the end of the day, that is really what we're going to continue to convey, and I think he does need to continue to—you know, he's running for president; he's also president every day, and he's never lost sight of that, and I think that's significant, too.
What do you say, what would he say to the people who say he's not out there enough; he doesn't do an interview with The New York Times or before the Super Bowl?Why is he being kept away?What do you say?What would he say to that question?
Well, I think the president—I'm not going to speak for him, but I would say the president is out there every single day doing his job, delivering for the American people.I think the significance of what he has accomplished as president has been historic, but that is not enough.He sees the importance of continuing to find progress.There is more work to be done, and he is more focused on making sure that he is spending time with the American people than he is going through a traditional process that is required of him.
We know that the American people are not getting news exactly as they had before.We know that there is a fragmented media environment, which means that the people that are not as politically engaged are not going to be looking at traditional media all the time.So of course the president is engaging with traditional media.Of course he's taking questions from the press every day in every way that he would normally, but he's also spending time at a kitchen table with a family in North Carolina, talking to a single father who was able to have some of his student debt removed because of the president's leadership, and sitting around that table, having fast food with his sons and hearing about what they're going through.And that is a way to reach people, too, and moving that in channels and through ways that young people, people that are not paying as much attention, can hear from the president as well.
So we're confident that we're going to be able to continue as a campaign and as part of supporting the president amplifying what he's doing, reach people in the ways that they are engaging in their own lives.And we think that is critical to finding opportunities to meet people exactly where they are and do that across every mechanism that we have available to us.
We talked about 2020, but now this is an election after Jan.6.How does he see the stakes in this election, and is it a pressure on him?
Well, I can't imagine that there is a more pressurized job than being president of the United States, but I think the president sees clearly the stakes in this election and that there really is a choice that is so stark.I think he has spoken so eloquently about this.And I think part of why the president got into this election to begin with, part of what we saw as he communicated in the midterm elections in 2022, was talking about this choice between a vision to help make people's lives better, to protect rights and freedoms versus this extreme, we would say, MAGA framework that is not about looking out for families and the middle class and making their lives better, but is taking care of one person, Donald Trump, and rolling back rights and freedoms.
And I think that the president was the first—when we saw what was happening with the Dobbs leaked draft and then the decision, which we're coming up on the anniversary soon here, the president very clearly saw how that was a gateway.It was a terrible thing rolling back rights for 50 years, but a gateway to, what's next?What next right would we roll back?
I remember people saying to him, reporters in '22 who were talking about: “Well, this happened in May, in the summer.Are you sure people are going to vote on this issue?” And the president, just being so clear-eyed to say, “People are not going to forget that their rights have been taken away for 50 years, and they're not going to forget that, whether that happened five months ago or it happened a year ago.” And obviously that proved true, unfortunately.
So I think for him, he does understand the stakes so clearly.It's why he got into this to begin with.But I also think the stakes are as high as they've been, if not higher, because as we know, this is not just a race between two ideas for this country.It is between a path forward for the American people and someone that is creating a path forward solely for himself, that is not going to let anyone stand in the way.And I think we have seen tangible examples of that, “dictator on day one,” suggesting a “bloodbath” if he doesn't win, making people have a litmus test before becoming his vice presidential nominee on whether or not the election results were accurate.
I think that the evidence continues to build, the stakes continue to stay that high, but I think the president's laser focus on these stakes is similar to what he felt in 2020.
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