The FRONTLINE Interviews
Joe Garofoli
Co-host, Chronicled: Who is Kamala Harris?
Joe Garofoli is a senior political writer at the San Francisco Chronicle. He was also co-host of the 2020 podcast Chronicled: Who is Kamala Harris?
The following interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on August 2, 2024. It has been edited for clarity and length.
This interview appears in:
TOP
Joe Garofoli
Chapters
Text Interview:
Highlight text to share it
Kamala Harris’ Childhood
I mean, the way she starts the story is her two parents—very unlikely meeting of the two of them that produce her.Can you help me understand that and why that matters to her story and to who she is?
Her parents were both immigrants.Her mother was an immigrant from India who got her undergraduate degree when she was 19 years old.And she came to Berkeley [Calif.].She was planning to return to India and most probably be in an arranged marriage like her parents were in.But she came to Berkeley and while she was there she met Donald Harris, a Jamaican immigrant who was studying economics.
They met at a peace rally in the early '60s.And Kamala Harris was born in October of 1964, which was sort of the unofficial start of the Free Speech Movement in Berkeley, when Mario Savio had his famous speech where he stood up on top of a car, and its iconic photos.And so, that's literally when she was born.
And she grew up like many other kids of activists.She talks about it all the time. I was going to peace rallies.And that was not uncommon there.The Berkeley then, though, wasn't the Berkeley that is now in popular culture, of hippies and craziness.It was a Republican city.It was the Republican mayor.
And Harris, her folks split up when she was young.I think they started drifting apart when she was about five years old.I think they divorced when she was seven.She was very much raised by her mother.And Berkeley was a segregated city.It was redlined.The Black folks, for the most part, couldn't live east of what is now Martin Luther King [Jr.] Way, closer to the Hills, closer to UC-Berkeley.And that's the environment where she grew up.
Let me just break down some of those things that you've already mentioned.I mean, to start with, she's born at this crucial moment and both of her parents are activists.You said it wasn't like the hippies that you sort of imagine.What was it like?And what were their politics and how would that have left an impression on that girl in a stroller?
As she was a young girl, they would take her to a place called Rainbow Sign, which is a Black cultural center.And people who would be just stopping by there would be folks like Maya Angelou, James Baldwin; folks like that would be coming in.
But on Thursday nights it was the meetings of Black women involved in politics.And they were not so much radicals, but they were about getting Black women elected to political office.So it was the intellectuals, but meeting the practicality of getting people elected to office.
Her mom, who raised her for the most part, raised her and her sister to be very proud young Black women.Nina Simone would come up by the Rainbow Sign place and she would listen to ”Young, Gifted and Black.” She would listen to that growing up.
They sang in the church choir, in a Black church in Oakland.But, she was also very proud of her mother's Indian heritage.I believe they also traveled to India to visit family there.So, uh, this is, this is the way she grew up in Berkeley.
And of course was one of the first classes to be bused in the early days of desegregation.
And her mom has this example, too, you talked a little bit about it, about coming from India, but breaking into a world in science that must set some kind of example for young Kamala Harris.
Yeah, oh, absolutely.There's fewer women than men in science now 50, Jesus, 60 years later.Think of how few women there were in science then, just like there were few women as prosecutors then; there's very few women, certainly very few Black women as prosecutors now.So her mother was very much a pioneer.And I think that set a role model for her.
Do you have a sense if there were expectations put on her by her mom?She talks about her mom saying, “Don't let people tell you who you are.” I mean, did she have an expectation, like, you're going to be excellent, you're going to—we're trying to figure out where her ambition comes from and does it connect to her mom.
Well, I think it's more of a reach-a-hand-down type of—I'm going to blow the line, but, “If you're the first of something, make sure you're not the last.” So and that's the ethos that I think that she grew up with in terms of Black women in politics, at the Rainbow Sign.It's help someone else up with you.…
Growing Up in a Biracial Family
And what about the fact that, you know, she grows up in a biracial family?It's not just a biracial family, it's an immigrant family from two different places.What is that experience like for her growing up?
It very much shapes her.It shapes her in terms of, she understands the immigrant experience.Being an elected official in California, you have to know the immigrant experience.We are a state full of immigrants.Silicon Valley, many of the founders of companies there are immigrants.And it's, you know, so she knows when there are policies like sanctuary cities and the reason behind sanctuary cities.She understands what the immigrant experience is like.
Now, her parents were academics, they had very good jobs.So it was that type of immigrant experience.But yet, she has a great deal of empathy and sympathy for those who are in similar situations.
Harris Attends Howard University
Why did she go to Howard?
From what I understand, she wanted to go there and be immersed.She wanted to go there because Thurgood Marshall went there.And Thurgood Marshall was a hero of hers growing up.Remember, she's growing up going to Rainbow Sign.The daycare she goes to has posters of Sojourner Truth and other Black icons throughout the ages.So she grew up in that experience, and looking to folks who are heroes growing up, who are icons.And that's what influenced her growing up.
I meant to ask you about the—about the daycare, because you talked about the Rainbow Sign.I mean, what was the influence of Ms.Shelton's daycare?
It's where she went, she and her sister went.And think of when, you know, we go to school and what posters do we see on the walls?And if you're seeing this on the walls every day, you're like, "Why are these folks on the walls?"And you learn about them.She's listening to the music of the era.She's learning about these heroes of the past.She's learning about the heroes of the present.She's very much growing up in a very formative moment in the Black experience,during the Civil Rights Movement and the crucible of it in Berkeley, where there are Black intellectuals coming into town, Black speakers.And down the road, when she was a very little kid, the Black Panthers.
I mean, this is, these are the forces that are in the atmosphere right there, and the forces that are shaping this young girl.
As I've been reading and learning about the—about the Howard years, one of the things some of the people who go there say is that … you're not in a box, that you could sort of be who you are.And that struck me because that seems a little bit like Kamala Harris does not want to be in a box.Did you get any sense of that from her experience of Howard or from learning about her?
From what I understand, when she was thinking about going to Howard, someone told her, “Why would you want to go there?Everybody is the same.” And once she got there and talked to other people, like, “Everybody is not the same.” That's sort of an insult almost, just to say because everyone's Black, they're the same.She found that there's people from all over the country.
And she is someone of mixed race who was there.And that only fortified her to embrace that side of herself.And she met Black folks from all over the country.And I think that was another major formative experience for her.
Harris’ Decision To Become a Prosecutor
It's interesting because that's the other theme of the Kamala Harris story, her parents as activists.And she talks about the difference between being inside the room and banging on the door.I mean, does some of that come from that ethos that you're talking about and that experience at Howard?
Yes.And at the same time, when you grow up in the activist community or surrounded by activists, people are trying to, you know, are marching for civil rights and against the Vietnam War, et cetera, et cetera.And then she wants to become a prosecutor.She wants to become "the man." That, her family was like, whoa.There was definitely some resistance to it.And she talks about that a lot.
But she felt that she wanted the seat at the table, and she wanted to be inside the room helping to make those decisions that affected her community, that affected all kinds of marginalized communities.And that's what drove her to be a prosecutor.
And so the question is why?… What is it about Kamala Harris that makes her say, you know, I can work inside the system?
Well, honestly I don't know.If I had to guess, I would say it goes back to her mother.I think that her mother showed her that she can go into spaces that are maybe uncomfortable, maybe where she is the first or the only, and be comfortable and make a difference.And she saw that and she said, “I can do that, too.”
So you've talked about that decision to become a prosecutor and that struggle that she has, and I think it's in particular it's with her mom, right, where she says she has to defend it like a thesis.I mean, can you just help me understand that tension that's like right there at the very beginning of her career?It's something that she sort of ends up having to explain all along the way.
Yeah.No, she definitely had to.There was a scene where she is defending it to her family.And you can imagine if you're starting a career that your family was, I wouldn't say opposed, but it's questionable.They didn't see the logic, I think, initially to why she wanted to be a prosecutor.Why would you want to be something that symbolizes oppression to our community?Why would you want to—they didn't understand that.
So she had to explain that, “To make change, I have to go inside the system.” Growing up in the Bay Area, you have an appreciation for the power of working outside the system, but she also saw the power of working inside the system.And both meld and shape each other.And she understands that dynamic very well because she grew up the child of academics, of activists.She was immersed in the activist community.But she also saw that there are limitations to it.You can be an activist, but who is actually getting something done?People on the inside in a world dominated by white folks.She said, “I'm going to change that.”
Harris as the First Black Female DA of San Francisco
Another thing she doesn't talk about, some people around her have talked about, is what it was like for her to walk into that DA's office as a Black woman, as a biracial woman, at that time.What would that have been like for her to be inside that environment in the early '90s?
Well, it was like—it was even when she was district attorney.I mean, there are few Black female prosecutors, even to this day.And think of what it was back then as San Francisco was—and you might say in some cases still is—a boys' town.Boys run the city.And she was a biracial woman coming into that world, coming into a place where the dominant power was held by white men.So she not only wanted to be a changemaker, but she also had to earn the respect of the people in the office.
And the Kamala Harris you know, how does she approach that?I mean, how does she approach an environment where there might be derogatory things said about her behind her back, or maybe even to her face, dismissive things based on just who she is?What is her method for dealing with things like that?
First of all, there's a couple of things.Number one, she does not suffer fools.And I doubt if any of these people will be making these comments to her face.She's tough.I've been on the business end of a few of her—when she wasn't happy with a story or a question.No, she's intense and she's tough.But you have to be as a prosecutor; I mean, that's part of the job description.
But you have to be extra tough to be a Black woman coming into a white-dominated field, a Black and Southeast Asian woman coming into a white-dominated field.
How do you think it's shaped her as a politician, as a leader, to come into politics from being a prosecutor?
It gives her a sense of clarity in some ways, in that when you are a prosecutor, you have one goal: you are trying to win this case, you're arguing, you're looking at all sides.Part of that is clarity.But then part of it is, well, what about this?And what about that?And so, one of the criticisms of her over the years is that she's too cautious.And part of that is, being a prosecutor, you do have to consider all the angles, and you have to consider the implications of things.And you can't just do something for a political reason.
I remember her telling me when she was attorney general running for Senate, she said she was looking forward to being in the Senate because, “Sometimes I feel like I'm fighting with one hand tied behind my back.” Because when you're the state attorney general, you're the state's lawyer, you have to often defend laws that you don't personally believe in.So that was her—maybe her more progressive side coming out, fighting with her prosecutor side.
The Willie Brown Relationship
Could you help me understand who Willie Brown is, and how he fits into her life story?
Willie Brown, throughout the '60s and the '70s or early '80s, was one of the most powerful figures in California politics.In fact, he called himself the “Ayatollah of the Assembly.” A very powerful person.And later became mayor of San Francisco, and a very productive one.With a political mind like few others.And he's helped the career of many politicians in the Bay Area and in California.
And he's also drawn the ire of other investigators.He was investigated for five years by the FBI.They didn't come up with anything.So he continues to be, at the age of 90, someone who young politicians still go to and kind of like kneel at his feet and say, “Help me out.I'm thinking of running for office; or, I'm thinking of running for higher office, what should I do?” And he will, either in a restaurant in San Francisco or over the phone or in person, he will, he will tell him.
And he sounds like a real character, just in the way that he dresses and in being in the society columns and who he's connected to.
Yes, he started out in San Francisco as a civil rights lawyer, and he would take on cases where families had been perhaps redlined out.And he was very much that kind of attorney.He came from a very small town in Mineola, Texas.And he came to San Francisco as a young man and totally worked his way up the ladder.And so, he ran for assembly, and once he got there, he figured out all the angles.
And he knows, he's one of those politicians who knows the rules better than you do.And he knows the politics better than you do.And so, that was his power and strength.And he's a very charismatic person, a very good sense of humor, and a very charismatic figure.
And so, for a brief period of time, she pops up on the radar, I guess, on his arm.I mean, what's important to understand about that relationship in her life?
Well, a couple of things.Number one, he appointed her to two state commissions in the '90s.And perhaps equally as important, he introduced her to the moneyed crowd in San Francisco, the Pacific Heights crowd, where they control the money that was flowing.And races not only in San Francisco, but, frankly, nationally.
So that was his importance in her life.They dated for a year, year-and-a-half in the mid-'90s.And they broke up shortly before he became mayor. …
Do you think she learned anything from him, separate from the relationship, but as a mentor, as a political operator?
She learned from him what many people in his orbit learned. They learned the angles of politics.I don't think anybody can probably work them in the same way that Willie can, but he imparts that to all sorts of people.… But he appointed Newsom, a young Gavin Newsom, to the Parking Commission.He's also helped Dianne Feinstein over the years; they were sort of roughly the same vintage.He also helped Nancy Pelosi in some ways as well.So it wasn't just Kamala Harris that Willie has helped.Now, the difference is, he and Kamala Harris had a romantic relationship for a brief period of time 35 years ago.
And it keeps coming back, and it starts in the DA's race.And what is her response to it and how does she feel about people talking about it?
You get everything from an eye roll to a serious bristling at it, as anyone who would ascribe your success, their success to their relationship with a man ten years before she ran for office, maybe eight years before she ran for office.She is, you know, when she's been asked about it numerous times at that point, when she was first running for district attorney, she's like, "You know, I'm tired of talking about Willie.This is not about him.I'm going to be very hard on him."
You know it came up in her first race for the district attorney.She was running against two white men.One of them was Terence Hallinan, long-time progressive DA, he was a hero to progressives.And the other guy was Bill Fazio; he had defended a bunch of police officers and he was a prosecutor as well, running to her right.
She had a very narrow band to run in there, and she started out with like, something like 6%.So obviously she started gaining a little ground and her opponents started bringing up Willie and how could she as district attorney, if he was still in office, could she be tough on Willie Brown?And so, her political consultants, they said, “Okay.” They had a meeting.They said, “All right, we're going to go right at this.We're going to take something that is a perceived strength and an attack on me and we're going to try and jujitsu it back on him.Or back on them, her opponents.”
So it comes, there's a debate at the Noe Valley Ministry in San Francisco, sort of a church setting.And they had planned and rehearsed what the response was going to be.One thing about Harris, she likes everything to be planned.She doesn't want any surprises.She wants the attack to be planned.There's not a hesitation in doing it, but she wants to know what—what's going to happen.She doesn't want any unexpected blowback.
So there is a question in the—from the audience about Willie.“How will you be—will you be tough enough on Willie if he is still in public office at some point?”She stands up.And she stands behind Terence Hallinan, and she says, “Well, you brought up—” she says, “I'm not going to engage in these types of, you know, these attacks during the campaign; voters don't want to hear about this stuff.” She stands up behind Hallinan and says, “I'm not going to be like Terence Hallinan and talk about when Fazio was caught in a massage parlor.” And she goes behind Fazio and says, “I'm not going to talk about what Fazio talks about, about Hallinan, the lawyers in his office having sex on the desks.I'm not going to behave in that way and bring up these types of things.”
The room erupts in applause, and that kind of defanged it after that.But she went right at it.I mean, when you see the attack she had on Biden in the debate years later, you can draw a direct line to that.Well-planned, well-orchestrated, well-executed.And in that case, in the first case, you know, in that race that wasn't an issue anymore; certainly not one that caused her to lose.She won.
And it really seems to also hit a nerve for her, this idea that you don't belong to be there.You haven't earned where you are.Is that a sensitivity?
Same theme.Same theme her whole life.You don't belong here because you're not a white guy.You don't belong here because you owe your success to a man.It's the same thing that she's been facing all these years.And that's how she pushed back on it.And in that case, remember, she’s a, what is she, 38 years old at that point?She’s in her mid-30s, first-time candidate running against a progressive icon in San Francisco.That’s a gutsy move.It's a gutsy move just to run, but then to start throwing punches like that, it's a gutsy move.
San Francisco Politics
What was the San Francisco politics like?I think it was described as a knife fight in a phone booth.And a lot of powerful women have come out of Northern California.Can you help me understand the environment that she's going to be in?
Well, when you think about San Francisco, you think, you know, major metropolitan city, international city, but it's really, it's only seven-by-seven miles.And it's one of those cities that everybody kind of knows each other and the politics are very personal.I mean, you don't fight red versus blue, Republican versus Democrat, because there's no Republicans.So the Democrats fight each other.And it's progressive versus moderate.And to the rest of America you'd be like, these people are all like super lefty.But here, it's the shades of blue that they're fighting over.And that's the hothouse environment that she's tossed into.
If you can survive that, you can survive the personal attacks, you can survive the policy attacks … you can survive just about anything.Look at the politicians who came out of there.Pelosi; nobody's tougher than she is.Feinstein; in her prime, very tough, very, very strong.Willie Brown.These are folks who are—you want to go into an alley in a knife fight, you want to go in with those three.
What is the expression?…
It's a knife fight in a phone booth.That's San Francisco politics.It's not for the weak.It's not for the faint of heart.You think the city is like, so liberal and progressive and so loving.Not when it comes to the politics.You gotta be tough to come out of there.
It's fascinating, and it does explain a lot about who she is, the person that you see once she gets on the national stage.You said the relationship with Willie Brown ended a while before.I mean, but what is she doing on her own to prepare herself to run?How does she lay the groundwork?How does she operate as a politician in getting to run?
I mean, for many ways, it was very grassroots.She literally set up an ironing board in front of Safeway and started handing out pamphlets and talking to people.It was a family operation as many early candidates do.She attracted a group of younger folks to help her.
But the coalition she put together to win is a very rare one in San Francisco.She had the rich people in Pacific Heights that Willie introduced her to, with folks in the Bayview, the Black neighborhood, and then the Castro, the LGBTQ neighborhood.It's a very unusual triangle of power there.
And she's always been very comfortable in the LGBTQ neighborhoods, and any San Francisco politician would be, just about anyone.And in fact, one night, I think it was shortly before that first race, one of her colleagues … said, “Hey, you know, I want you to come to this one place, and we're going to talk to some folks for some last-minute votes.” And she said, “But, you know, I don't know if you want to go; it's underwear night.It was a bar in the Castro.” And she's like, “People in their underwear vote, too.” So she went.
Because of who she is, how she grew up, the diversity experiences she had, she does feel comfortable walking into any room.She can walk into a high society place in Pacific Heights with a bunch of rich people.She can walk into the Black neighborhood in the Bayview.And she can go into underwear night in the Castro.
Harris Defies Labels
A lot of focus on her time in California when she runs later will be on on who is she?Because there's all these terms: progressive, liberal, hard on crime.And I said before, she doesn't want to be boxed in.I mean who is she as she's running for DA?And do those terms apply?And what is her political brand?
That is the age-old question about Kamala Harris, which I don't think has been solved yet, is: who is Kamala Harris?Is she a prosecutor?Is she a progressive?It depends.
So she has that term, smart on crime.I mean, is that a way of trying to get around the labels of being a hard-nosed prosecutor or being a progressive activist?Is it intentional on her part?
Oh, absolutely.It's a way to sort of carve a third way—not progressive, not hard-nosed prosecutor, but smart on crime.And she did try some innovative things that had some success.
The truancy program was one where she tried to walk that line and it was a challenge.You know, when she came up with the idea, the origin of the idea was, she was very frustrated with graduation rates when she saw the low graduation rates in San Francisco.And a lot of the people who were committing crimes were high school dropouts.
So she's like, “Well,”—her mother's scientific mind—“Well, let's examine this problem.Let's go upstream and see what's going on here.” So she found out that many people who were committing crimes were dropouts and they had been habitually truant, even as younger folks.
So she said, “Well, how can the DA's office step in?” Now, ordinarily, what the hell's the DA's office going to be doing, meddling in a school program?But she said, “These are the people who are coming through my courtrooms.” So they crafted this truancy program where initially, you know, the educators and the families would sit down and talk to each other.But, you know, at some point, if the kids continued to be truant—and truants, we're talking kids who are missing like 50 days or more; and that's almost a third of the school year—then the heavy stick of the prosecutor's office or the DA's office would come down on them.
Now, there were maybe two dozen folks in San Francisco prosecuted.And truancy rates did come down.Nobody went to jail as far as we know.But the program was so popular that then-Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger adapted it statewide for use.Now, it had some—and I think Harris even said herself—some unintended consequences where not everybody, not every county in California is as benevolent as San Francisco County.And a couple dozen parents were prosecuted and did go to jail.
So this was an example of how challenging it can be to craft, you know, policy out of a prosecutor's office, out of the district attorney's office.And that goes back to what we were talking about earlier about how she often felt she was fighting with one hand tied behind her back.
It was interesting, you said about her mom's scientific approach, because she self-presents sometimes as very pragmatic, data-driven, not ideological.Is that how she sees herself?Is that something she sees herself as getting from her mom?Is it part of why we're all so frustrated with trying to understand where she is on the spectrum of politics?
She often says to the people on her staff, “Show me the math.Show me the numbers on this.Show me, show me your logic.Show me your reasoning, how you get to this.” …And she will challenge you.It's not like you come in and say, “Okay, here's my report.” No, no, no.You're going to be challenged on that report.
And the prosecutor mind doesn't click off.She’s a tough boss.There's no doubt about that.But that comes from the prosecutor's mind, but also I think it's her mother's influence of like, I want to see data, I want to see, you know, how you got to that position.
Harris Declines to Seek the Death Penalty in the Isaac Espinoza Case
She's only 100 days in and she faces the Officer Espinoza moment.… Can you help me understand why the kind of blowback that she faces and what she would have learned, and to some extent just what that moment was?
Well, you have Officer Espinoza.He is a, he's a very popular cop—29 years old.He was patrolling in the Bayview, one of the tougher neighborhoods in San Francisco.He's offered, you know, to patrol in North Beach.That's a safer, it's a safer neighborhood.He's like, “No, no, I'm very dedicated to these folks in the Bayview neighborhood.”
Night before Easter 2004, he's on patrol and almost at the end of his shift.And he's shot by a gang member.Harris waits a couple of days and then announces, before Espinoza's funeral, that she would not seek the death penalty.The funeral comes.The church is packed with uniformed, hundreds and hundreds of uniformed San Francisco police officers.
Senator Dianne Feinstein gets up to speak.Even the police officers didn't know what she was going to say.And at that time, Senator Feinstein was the most powerful and influential figure in California politics.It wasn't the Dianne Feinstein of her last few years of her career.And she gets up and she says, This is definitely a case where the death penalty should have been asked for.The entire church filled with uniformed San Francisco police officers, stands up and roars their applause.
Sitting in the church is Kamala Harris, four months into her new job.It was an experience that shaped a lot of her decisions, her relationship with law enforcement, her sometimes cautious behavior towards overseeing district attorneys when she was attorney general.You can imagine that if you are a young person, new into your job, and someone who was at the top of their game comes in and basically calls you out in public in front of all the people you have to work with, police officers, you can't imagine how—I don't know if traumatic would be the word, but how gut-wrenching that would be, how that would play with your mind a little bit.
What was the lesson that she drew?How would she be different after that moment?
Well, I think the initial lesson was that she shouldn't have said that [she wouldn’t seek the death penalty] before the funeral.I mean, before the, before the man's even buried.And let's not forget that, you know, she campaigned on this.This was no surprise.She campaigned in opposition to the death penalty.A San Francisco jury is never going to go for the death penalty.So, not only is that her personal belief, but it's a practical one.
And then Feinstein also knew better.Let's be real.She knew.She said afterwards, “I didn't know if she was for the death penalty.I probably wouldn't have endorsed her.” Now, come on.She knows better than that.
But even another one of her political allies, Barbara Boxer, she and Feinstein advocated for the attorney general to take the case from Harris, to look over her shoulder and say, “No, no, I think we're going to—we're going to step in here and do something about this.”
I mean, some people say to not take a position if you don't have to.I mean, is that something that you see in Kamala Harris after that?
Hmm, no, because she took some positions that were unusual.For example, same-sex marriage.California banned same-sex marriage in 2008, and the job of the attorney general is to, for the most part, defend the laws of the state, you know, represent the state's interest.So if Prop 8, which bans same-sex marriage, is the law of the state, she declined to defend it in court.Why?She said, “Well, it didn't fit with the state constitution.” Perhaps.And history certainly was on her side there.But at the time, it was like, well, wait a minute.I thought that was your job as the A.G..
So that, so she definitely made some choices there where, you know, you could have said that was a political choice.I'm sure she would argue and say it's a legal choice.But it was a choice.
She also has to rebuild, politically, her relationship with cops.Maybe the trust of voters.So what does she do after that, that that's not the end of her political career?
No, but it's definitely—it definitely put a strain on her relationship with the police officers.And again, that's four months into her first term.That said, she faced no opposition in her second term, cruised to victory.But when she ran for attorney general in 2010, that's when it came up.She beat a large field of Democrats in the primary.But she came up against Steve Cooley, who was the L.A.district attorney, a Republican, and he had the support of the cops, and they were all on his side.And, you know, often voters will look to see, well, okay, where's law enforcement on a district attorney?When they're just trying to decide who to vote for.
So that was a disadvantage for her.And she narrowly squeaked by in that one.But then she went to work and she visited just about all of California's 58 counties, meeting with law enforcement officers.And in her 2014 race, her reelection race for attorney general, she won the support of many of the law enforcement groups that opposed her four years earlier.
Let's go back to the California attorney general race, because sometimes we look back at her political career in California as a Democrat and it appears like smooth sailing in retrospect.But it sounds like that race wasn't an easy one for her.And then maybe she wasn't even favored to win.How important was that race against Cooley?
That was, other than her first race, that was really her only challenging race in her career.I remember when she was running for president and I was talking to her on the campaign trail.And I said, “You know, you're losing in your home state.” She said, “Well, I always have tough races and I always come back.” I'm like, not really.I mean, she's had two very tough races.Her first one, very tough.Her attorney general's race, very difficult.In fact, it wasn't even decided on election night; it was decided days and days later.
That was very important because it showed that she had statewide support.And she worked for it.She spent a lot of time in Los Angeles campaigning and she made herself known there.…Most people don't know their own district attorney, let alone someone from another city.So but she worked it and she campaigned very hard, and she knew how to get the votes.
I mean, you said she did weigh in on controversial issues.I just want to ask you because there's another version of the story, which was she didn't want to answer questions about marijuana legalization and other things, propositions and sentencing reform and taking over investigation of police shootings, that she was very hesitant.I mean, so help me understand her as attorney general and whether, you know, that narrative about her is real, how it fits in to understanding her.
This is where she becomes very hard, much harder to understand.Let's talk about cannabis, marijuana.In 2010, when she's running for attorney general, she opposes a statewide ballot measure that would have legalized marijuana for recreational use in California.She said it was bad policy.But let's be real; at that point it wouldn't have been popular to say, “I'm running for attorney general and I want to legalize weed.Oh, by the way, I'm the prosecutor from San Francisco.” You know, it just, it's a bad matter.She had to be as tough and as centrist as possible in that race.
In 2014, she's running for reelection against a nominal Republican opponent; I'm guessing most people couldn't even remember who this person was.And this person, a Republican, supports legalizing marijuana.And she kind of laughs it off.There's a famous clip, I'm sure going to use it, of her just kind of, “Well, that's his opinion.” And so, she laughs it off.
Two years later, Californians, led by Gavin Newsom, who she literally took office on the same day in San Francisco, leads the drive to legalize marijuana in California.Again, she's not on board.But yet, what I don't understand is like two years later, when she's in the Senate, she takes a left turn; then all of a sudden, she's out in front on marijuana legalization.She is—and to this day, she's leading the administration's role to reclassify marijuana, reclassify cannabis as a drug.Right now, it's classified as a drug that's as harmful as heroin.And now she—she's leading the effort to reclassify it; she says no one should go to jail for smoking weed.
Well, really?I mean, where were you when this issue was hot in 2016?She was two years behind the voters in her own state.So that's where I don't understand; I don't understand the calculation there.That's always a head-scratcher to me.I think I've written that story about six times.Like, I don't understand Kamala Harris' position on marijuana.
Harris Takes on Banks and the Obama Administration During Mortgage Crisis
The case that the campaign and that she points to as being really important was the mortgage deal and sort of breaking with the Obama administration and taking it on.How important was that story for understanding Kamala Harris?
Oh, very big.I mean it's, along with the Espinoza case.And again, the Espinoza case, one other thing we didn't mention was that she stuck to her values on that one.She, in the face of pressure from Dianne Feinstein, from the political establishment, from police officers that she had to work with, she stood her ground and stood her values.
The other thing that really defined her was the mortgage settlement.Again, she's a relatively new attorney general.She goes up against the big banks.They're like, “We're going to give you $2 billion, $4 billion”, and she's like, “No, I'm pulling out of this.” And Governor Jerry Brown, who is arguably one of the smartest minds in California politics … he's like, “I hope you know what you're doing.”
And Jerry Brown is very much like Willie Brown.They know all the political angles.And she stays in the game, and she ultimately wins.I mean, even the Obama administration, she's going up against her friend Barack Obama on this one.It was a very, very gutsy call, and it paid off.
Now, it got her a primetime slot at speaking at the DNC.I remember speaking to her right before that, and it was funny because she said she was nervous.And it was kind of her first moment in the national spotlight.And she came on as this hero who won $25 billion for people who had lost their homes.I mean, you don't get to wear the Superman cape like that too often.
Harris Goes to the Senate
The night that she wins the Senate, she's hearing news that Donald Trump is beating Hillary Clinton.How important a moment is that for her, to have her election night be the same moment that Donald Trump is coming in, that Hillary Clinton is defeated?
Arguably, I think, that moment brings us to where we are here right now, with her running against him for president.She intended that, “I'm going to Washington and the first female president United States is going to be there.I'm the first female person of color to be a senator from California, and this is going to be two historical moments at once.We're going to be working in parallel, et cetera, et cetera."
Instead, she's vaulted into being the head of the resistance.California was the head of the anti-Trump resistance.The Bay Area was the absolute hub of it, both from a financial point of view, from a manpower/people power point of view.And Kamala Harris was very much the Washington embodiment of that, from the way she was grilling the Trump appointees, to her pushback on Supreme Court Justice [Brett] Kavanaugh during his confirmation hearings.
She embraced the moment from the very first moment.She tore up her speech, and she just went into fight mode.Harris is best in fight mode.And it goes back to her prosecutorial history.When she has zeroed in on a target, that's when she's her best.And her target was Donald Trump.
I went back to see the transcript of that speech, and I did a word search for the word fight and—
How many times?
It's almost every almost every sentence, “I say we fight.” And she has that from that moment and from that night.And it seems different than the clip that I saw of her being asked about her marijuana policy or something.What do you think about that?
But it's a prosecutorial background and it's her activist background.It goes back to the word she's hearing as as she's in the stroller: “We're going to fight for justice.We're going to fight for civil rights.We're going to fight against the war.” That strain is in her here.That's her progressive side melding with her prosecutorial side: We fight.And when she's in fight mode, she's at her best.
Harris Runs for President in 2019
… Were you there at the announcement of her presidential campaign?
Oh, yes, in Oakland?Yes, absolutely.
What was that like?It sounds like when she starts off, she's not as much an underdog as she might have been in some of her races.
Off-the-charts energy.The first image that people were thinking of, you know, Obama announcing in Springfield.Of course, that's that, but this was its own situation.This was 20,000 people in downtown Oakland and it looked like she was standing in front of the White House.It was Oakland City Hall, but it was, the setting couldn't have been more perfect.The energy was off the charts.You had her sorority sisters, you know, dozens and dozens of them there.You had people who had known her all her life.You had her there a short distance from the hospital where she was born in Oakland.The setting couldn't have been better.And people walked away from there going, “Whoa, I think I've just seen the start of something.” Turns out it wasn't.
And she has the moment with Biden, where she says, “That little girl was me.” Was that surprising to you, given that how little she generally talks about her past or draws on her life story?
I was surprised that she went after Biden.I think other candidates were; I think Julian Castro was going after Biden a lot.… I didn't think she would.I don't know.So that, it surprised me in that way.And then, I was like, “Wow, that's a pretty good takedown.”
And then, of course, they start selling T-shirts online an hour or so later.It's like, okay, this is a very planned event.And then it turns out that her position on busing wasn't a whole hell of a lot different than his.So it was a good moment.It was a good viral moment.It certainly hurt him and it helped her in the polls briefly.But when people found out like, well, okay, but you're not all that different than he is, that's when it kind of fell apart.
Harris Selected as Vice President
… When you see her chosen as the vice presidential running mate and you had watched her career up until that moment, what was your take on that?What did you think?
I was curious to see how she would do in terms of being on message discipline.I was, because we're just months removed from how terrible her presidential campaign ended, I was curious to see whether she could stay focused on message and such.But I think she did a very good job as a vice presidential candidate.…
It's funny because you talked about her saying she didn't want to have her hand tied behind her back and that was why she wanted to be in the Senate.…And then she walks into this, the job, which is the vice president of the United States.I mean, how much of an adjustment is that for Kamala Harris?
Well, the office of the vice president in itself is so ill-defined.I mean, you're basically waiting around and putting a mirror under the president's nose every morning to see if he's breathing, or she's breathing.So it's a weird job anyways, and you're sort of assigned a portfolio for whatever the boss, the president of the United States, says you should do.And she drew a tough lot.I mean, go find the root causes, tackle the root causes of immigration.Good luck with that.
So I think that it's really a no-win job.But the scrutiny on her has definitely been much more intense than it has on previous people.I think one of the few vice presidents who was able to do something, not necessarily with a portfolio, but was Dick Cheney, because he was so influential; he had a lot of experience in Washington.Let's be real, before being vice president, she had two years of experience in Washington.She hadn't developed the deep relationships, the broad relationships with people across the aisle like her predecessor, Joe Biden, who had been there for decades, and knew every senator and knew their kids and blah blah blah.
Harris can be a very glad handing politician.I mean, if you're in California, she's very warm.She, in Biden's way, she'll give you a warm handshake or a hug.She knows people's kids.She knows their family situation.She knows personal history.She's that type of politician.
But you know, she only had two years in Washington to do that and then she starts running for president.So it's not like she has a whole hell of a lot of experience going up on the Senate floor and saying, “Hey, I need you to vote for this.” She could do that with some people, but not a whole lot.
Harris After the Dobbs Decision
It's not necessarily in policy and the super complicated world of how do you change immigration, or migration as they call it.But after that, it seems like that there is an issue that just plays more to her strength, which is abortion, when that Dobbs decision comes out.How do you see the Kamala Harris who rose up respond to that moment?
I was here and she came to San Francisco and it was, it might have been her first or second appearance after Roe fell, and she was talking about abortion rights here in San Francisco, and it seemed like it might have been like spring training or training camp where she's working out, you know, “I want to sort of get the message down.” Not like she needed any help.She's always been a staunch defender of reproductive rights.
But I saw her and I was like, “Wow, she's in her voice.She's finding her voice on this issue.” … I mean, you're doing it in California where, you don't need to convince anybody here.Or at least you don't have to convince, you know, two-thirds of the people here.
But talking to people afterwards, they said, yes, she is very much in her voice here, in her skin.This is Kamala Harris at her best.Again, narrow focus on an issue.She can drive it home.She can talk about the people that she has dealt with over the years about these issues.And so, she definitely found her voice back in her hometown.
As you're describing it, that goes back to the childhood, that goes back to the prosecutor.This is her life story playing out in a moment like that?
She's prosecuting the case for abortion rights.And it's a very direct line.And I wouldn't say it's an easy case to make, but she can speak very directly about it, and she can speak about it as a woman, and as a woman of color, who, many of the folks who were in search of abortion rights are living in abortion deserts, even here in California, are people of color.And so, she can speak to that issue very directly.And it's something that comes very naturally to her.She's been there all her life.She doesn't have to come up with a Medicare For All nuanced position.This is something that's in her bones.
The Veep talk.Should she be replaced?She's not up to it.That down moment, the nadir of her time in the vice presidency, would that get to her?
She would feel it, but she would not let it bother her.Again, it goes back to the knife fight in the phone booth.She's felt stuff more directly.There's one thing when you're hearing stuff on Twitter and the chattering class in Washington, she's had people say this to her face on the streets in San Francisco and handled that.You know, at some level, yes, it's a bigger stage; it's a national stage; it's online and pervasive.But you know, she's stared this stuff down from San Francisco.You know, you can critique her policy points, definitely, over the years, but this kind of stuff, she's tough.
Biden Steps Aside
Somebody will make a miniseries or a film about the last 30 days of the Biden campaign.… The Biden people are apparently saying he can't pull out, there's nobody to step in.And here's Kamala Harris sitting there, and sitting there quietly.
Right.You got to think it's insulting.You know, I mean, honestly, he, Biden at some level was saying what Trump did: “I alone can fix it.” Well, what an incredible dis on your vice president, the person you chose, you know.And we don't know what Harris is going to do.We don't know if she's going to bring this to the finish line.We don't know if she's going to win or lose.Someday, we'll hear more about what that felt like, to be insulted like that, sort of tacitly insulted by the person who chose you, that only he was concerned that he had to stay in the race because he didn't think she could handle it.Why?Well, I'd like to hear that from the president.
And she doesn't do what you imagine in House of Cards would be the play, which is, you know, to organize the campaign against him.I mean, there's been no reporting at all on that.And in fact, she seems to bea voice that goes out there.You know, she's on CNN after the debate and a lot of people suddenly are paying attention to her.
Those few minutes with Anderson Cooper, I think, really turned some heads, like, “Whoa, maybe she's okay.” I think the chattering class was—people—Democrats were desperate.They're like, “Oh, my god, what are we going to do?” When she came on and it was a very nuanced answer, she wasn't blindly supporting the president.She said, “Well, you know, it was a bad start.”
So she did acknowledge what everybody saw.It was dreadful.It was horrifying.And she, so she acknowledged that.But then she's like, “Okay, but he's the guy going forward.” She never publicly wavered from that.And even privately, you did not hear a lot of stuff coming out of her camp saying, you know, Biden's got to go.…
There's no indication she was leading the palace coup on that one.
The other thing that's so strange about it is people say, “Where did she come from?” Almost like they'd stopped paying attention to her after the Lester Holt and the early stuff and to some extent been written off.And suddenly she's there.I mean, has she changed or was it the politics of the moment that changed and suddenly they saw her?What happened that led her to become the leading replacement for Biden?
Part of it is a practical reason.She's the sitting vice president.She had better access to all the campaign funds that had already been raised.And let's be real, if Democrats were to skip over the first Black woman, first Indian American woman elected as vice president of the United States, the base of the party, Black women who vote 90% for Democrats—you could kill that relationship for generations.So there were definitely practical aspects of it.
And I think, but the Lester Holt interview, what happened in the intervening days helped people to take a second look at Kamala Harris.And she rose to the occasion.Again, she was in fight mode, and she was able to zero in on, this is the moment where the prime directive, the one thing that we have to get right, is we have to get Donald Trump.We have to prevent Donald Trump from returning to the White House.She had a very pointed mission, and she has remained on that.
Kamala Harris reportedly, you know, gets this news and then quickly starts calling people, getting support to become the nominee.I mean, are those San Francisco political skills kicking in?
Absolutely.Absolutely.Because it's, she's going back to the seven-by-seven city, the knife fight in the phone booth in San Francisco.In San Francisco, you win elective office—we're having a mayor's race right now—you win it one Democratic club at a time.The multiple LGBTQ clubs, the Black Democrats, Latino Democrats, you know.…That's her instinct as a grassroots organizer, and that's going back to her childhood.You notice how she talks about a movement.She grew up with folks who were all about building a movement.So that's what she did.It's grassroots political instincts.It's movement-building.And it's being ready to fight.
I mean, and it's also this moment when we talked about her original campaign and whether being a prosecutor was beneficial and now, you know, this other thread that we've talked about in her life of being the prosecutor, it seems like a unique moment in American life where she would be the presidential candidate and a convicted felon on the other side.
Yes.The moment is almost—it's on a platter for her right now.You could not have scripted this better for her in some ways, in that it's the prosecutor versus the felon.And she has embraced that and focused on that.
The challenge will be, can she maintain that focus?Can the events around her permit her to maintain that focus for the intervening couple of months?…
That's the question that you guys have in the podcast, is, who is Kamala Harris?Sometimes people talk about her as a vessel that they project things onto because they're not 100% sure who she is.I mean, is that fair?
I don't know if it's fair, but I think, you knowI've been thinking about this question a lot as we're reviewing her and I've been writing about her, more and looking back on her career, and I wonder if we're always going to be asking this question.Who is Kamala Harris?And then part of me is like, well, is that a bad thing?You know, maybe, you know, if someone is a rigid politician, you want to know where someone stands on everything, and that's good.
But you know, maybe this is someone with a core set of beliefs.Part of me feels like we're always going to be kind of asking that question, who is Kamala Harris?In part because there's never been anyone who came up through politics like she did, and who she is, and the upbringing that she had.So I think that's a question we'll kind of always be asking, no matter what happens in this race.
What’s the Choice on the Ballot?
What is the choice that voters face in November as you think about the two candidates and what's on the ballot?
I think it's what kind of country do you want to have?Do you want to have a country that is led by someone who is hateful and will use anything, would do anything to divide people?Or someone who tries to embrace what America is evolving into, and already is?You know, you may not agree.Take the policies aside, but I think there's a direction of the country that's very stark.The choice is very stark right now.It's someone who is espousing a lot of hateful policies and hateful rhetoric against someone who is trying to embrace who America is and who America is evolving into.
Latest Interviews
Latest Interviews
Policies
Teacher Center
Jon and Jo Ann Hagler on behalf of the Jon L. Hagler Foundation
Koo and Patricia Yuen
FRONTLINE is a registered trademark of WGBH Educational Foundation. Web Site Copyright ©1995-2025 WGBH Educational Foundation. PBS is a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization.
Funding for FRONTLINE is provided through the support of PBS viewers and by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Additional funding is provided by the Abrams Foundation; Park Foundation; the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation; and the FRONTLINE Journalism Fund with major support from Jon and Jo Ann Hagler on behalf of the Jon L. Hagler Foundation, and additional support from Koo and Patricia Yuen. FRONTLINE is a registered trademark of WGBH Educational Foundation. Web Site Copyright ©1995-2025 WGBH Educational Foundation. PBS is a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization.
