The FRONTLINE Interviews
Karen Gibbs
Harris Friend
Karen Gibbs is a close friend of Kamala Harris. They met as students at Howard University and have remained friends ever since. Gibbs is currently an attorney based in Washington, D.C.
The following interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on August 7, 2024. It has been edited for clarity and length.
This interview appears in:
TOP
Karen Gibbs
Chapters
Text Interview:
Highlight text to share it
Freshman Year at Howard University
When do you first meet Kamala Harris?
So, I met Kamala the very first week of our freshman year on the campus of Howard University, which was in August of 1982.
And tell me about that.Tell me about who you met, and why did she stand out?
The way that Kamala stood out, is that I was dragged to a debate, which she was participating in, she was running, believe it or not, for freshman class president of the School of Liberal Arts and Sciences.So we had a very small circle of friends that we kind of met our first week of school.And she was part of that circle of friends.So I was asked to come to listen to her.And I thought, “Gosh, who was that serious so fast, our first week of school, that she, you know, wants to even assume this position?” So that's how I first met Kamala, was through a small circle of friends.
And what was she like in that environment, in that debate?
She was very focused.I mean, she was very resolute on what her issues were, what, you know, what changes she wanted to make, and what she would bring to bear as a representative of our liberal arts freshman class.
Was it a tough environment?Because I've heard descriptions of some of the elections there, where people ask you questions.What was it like?
I mean, the environment wasn't tough for me, per se.But I remember, we were in Douglass Hall.We were both liberal arts majors, so obviously we were in the School of Liberal Arts.And the room was packed.It was one of our larger lecture halls.And there had to be at least, probably 200 students there, you know, which was significant in and of itself, considering most of the students were out on the yard, throwing frisbees, and just having a lot of fun, getting to know our new classmates.So, in that respect, when you step into an environment, and you really don't know a lot of people, this, of course, was, you know, the first week of school.So, you know, you're engaged with people that you really don't know well, because I certainly didn't know her well.As I said, I was dragged there by some other friends, who said, “Come on.We need to watch Kamala, you know, go support Kamala.” So we did.And I just thought, “Wow, she's so serious.” And all I could think about was going back on the yard, having more fun.
You say that she was determined, even then.
Yes.
What do you mean by that?
I mean, I believe that she was really focused.She set her mind on a goal.And her goal, then, was to win this debate.It was to get through this debate, and to win the election.And that's exactly what she did.And I think that's how she approached life, in general.You know, she came to Howard University.She was an economics major.She was planning to go to law school.I mean, I think she had her life mapped out at a very early age, certainly by the time she got to Howard.As opposed to myself, I was still kind of figuring things out.So when I compare her to myself, I say, “Gosh, she's so focused and so driven.”
Why Howard?
Do you know what brought her to Howard?
I mean, there are a lot of different stories about why she went to Howard, and it was very similar to why I went to Howard.I mean, she had heard about Howard her entire life.And people that I grew up with, that had gone to Howard, that I kind of looked up to, people from my church—it was always considered the best of the best.If you want to go to an historically Black college or university, you want to go to the very best one.So I chose Howard University, and she chose it for the same reason.And there are a whole litany of professionals, stalwarts from our community, that went to Howard University, the law school.And that's what drove so many ambitious individuals like Kamala and myself to go there, and our circle of friends.
And what does it mean for you and for her to go to a historically Black college or university?
You know, it means the world to me.If I had to do it all over again, I would do it again.Because I came from rural America.I was raised with a lot of individuals, I was always in the, quote/unquote, minority, people who really were not a lot like me, who didn't have the same goals and ambitions that I had.And I wanted to be surrounded by people like me, people from all walks of life, but who were African American and where there was a lot of Black love.
And there was a lot of Black love.There was a lot of nurturing of Black students.I mean, we could have easily gone to a majority university, which I applied for, and she did as well.But I, like Kamala, we both wanted to be in an environment where we would be seen and appreciated for all the attributes that we brought to bear to the school.And so I think that's why so many go to Howard.It has a standard of excellence.It's like the standard bearer of excellence among all HBCUs.So that, I think it instills such a deep sense of pride.
And we were talking about it earlier, just the Black love—we were like a family there.I mean, to this day, I mean we've met thousands of individuals from your freshman year through your senior year.And, you go back every year because you're driven.You're drawn together.You want to come back.It's like the herd, the bison herd wants to come back to the bison round-up, to see the people that we went to school with.
We came of age there.And I think that's probably the case for any college that you go to, coming out of high school.You have your chance.You're not with your family.She came from California.I came from Delaware.And you're on your own.And that's where you go to learn to be responsible, and to figure out what you really want to do in life, if you haven't already figured it out, like Kamala already had, I'm certain of it.
But it helps you to really develop in those ways, and at the same time, still be nurtured by people who really have a deep interest in you.The faculty that are there, they are really nurturing.And they instill that deep sense of pride, not only in you, but in your life's ambitions as well.So you just feel like you're loved, you're supported tremendously.You're seen.And it allows you to feel like there's nothing that you cannot achieve, if you really put your mind to it.I mean, and that is the key.
I mean, some people that have said that, in that environment, it's easier to be yourself than in—
Yes.It definitely is.And I guess that's what I was alluding to.Because I was raised—there were probably eight percent Blacks in my school, my country school that I was from.I mean, my father was an educator.So, amongst the atmosphere in which I was raised, in my little village, it was of Black professionals.So, I mean, there was an expectation of what I would do, that I would at least go to college, and that I would earn a college degree, which I did, and become a responsible member of society.So it was always expected of me.
But in the environment in which I was raised, you know, in rural America, I never felt like I could be myself.I had never felt like I was truly seen, understood, appreciated.And at Howard, I was.Not only by my peers, but by our mentors, and the faculty, and yes, there was a nurturing, supportive environment, where I could become anything that I put my mind to.
Because, like, one of the things we're trying to figure out with Kamala Harris, is she has this confidence that she will carry with her.And she will walk into difficult environments.
Yes.
Where she might be the only Black woman in the room, for example.
Yes.
And does some of that confidence come from the Howard experience?
It absolutely does.It comes from the Howard experience, because—so I told you that we had a very small circle of friends.We called ourselves the Phly Five and Justice Live Associates, really funny.We kind of named ourselves.So it's like, you know, we're the fun girls, the smart girls.We like to have a lot of fun.But we play hard, and we study hard.And we know what we're going to do.We know who we are.And so, as iron sharpens iron, so does the countenance of one's friends.That's what the Bible says.That's what I really believe.And that's really how it was at Howard.You were surrounded by people that had like minds.And if you didn't have the same goal, but the goal obviously was to graduate, and to provide some type of meaningful impact in our surrounding communities, when we, you know, went back home, or wherever we went in the world, to take that Howard experience, and to make a difference in the world, while, you know, achieving your own life's goals.And so, that's where that confidence comes from, because you're surrounded by people like you, who hold the same beliefs and values that you hold.
And you talked about her working.What was she like as a student?I mean, could you see her?
Well, we really became much closer sophomore year, because we lived next door to each other in Slowe Hall.So, we cooked every night.I mean our typical day was to kind of get up and to come into each other's rooms, and figure out what we were going to wear, and then walk to campus, because we were so close to campus then.…
So that was our typical day going to campus, and then walking up the hill, and just talking about the day, the week, you know, the activities that were planned, and things like that.And then, in the evening, we'd, you know, debrief about the whole day, who we saw, what we did, you know, what was exciting, you know.It was just kind of the vicissitudes of life.
We'd just talk about what was happening, not just on campus, but back at home, with our families.I mean, we really—we were really deeply entrenched in each other's lives.I mean, so we'd cook.And she'd get care packages from home.And she'd always quip about me taking my “Black card,” because the food was spicy.Shyamala [Harris], “Mommy,” you know, the food that she sent was very spicy.And I gradually developed a liking for spicier food.But that's what she always used to joke about.And she'd say she was going to take my “Black card.”
And we would study in the basement.We had a basement in Lucy Diggs Slowe Hall.And so, we'd.We'd have late night cramming sessions for exams.… And you know, interludes of snowball fights throughout the winter.I mean, we really did hang out like wet clothes.We were together all the time.
But, we had our individual lives, too.She worked.I worked.You know, she had different things that she liked to do, other than the activities that I was in.She was in the debate team.I was in the Howard University Dance Ensemble.We had our different activities as well.But we always came back together within our circle of friends.
The Culture at Howard
I've heard some talk about what the dress was like in those days.
Oh yes, yes.We dressed at Howard University, every day.Even if you wore jeans, you probably were wearing a pair of heels.And you had on a very, you know, dressy blouse.And Kamala wore pearls, literally almost every day.That was one of her trademarks.That was something that was very striking to me about her, is that that was her trademark.I mean, she wore her pearls.And people, I know, they've made a big thing about it since she ran for president back in 2019, you know, the pearls and the sneakers.But Kamala has been wearing pearls her whole life.All throughout college.You know, her mother's from India, so she always had beautiful rings and things like that.
So, I mean, and it was like that for everybody at Howard.People really dressed up.It was nothing to see a girl in a fur coat at Howard.And if you go there now, I mean, my children even went, designer bags, and things like that.But we really took pride in ourselves.It's not that we were looking for mates or anything, but there were a lot of cute guys there.And I just think it just helped us feel good.It helped me feel good about myself, at least.I mean, you feel better when you're all dressed up.I think it was just expected, that was the spirit of Howard, within that spirit of excellence, it was to bring your best every single day.So to bring your best, you get up, and you, you know, you get your mind right, and you get your dress right.As I said, we were in each other's closets every day, you know, not just going to school, but going out to the parties at night, and wherever.So yes, that was, you know, the typical Howard culture.And it was like that in the '80s.
What was it like to be a woman who was a student at that time?
I never really looked at being a student, from the framework of being a woman.It was really a girl.We were girls.We were not women yet.But we were certainly becoming women.We were young women.But at Howard, it didn't matter.I mean, we were equally respected as our male counterparts, student counterparts.So I don't think that I, in particular, didn't feel that I was treated any differently.I'm not sure that was even really a topic of conversation, as to any real differences or nuances in the way that we were either perceived, or opportunities that were presented to us, or that were prevented, even, because we were women.I really never gave that much thought.I've never drawn that distinction, other than to say there were so many beautiful women.I mean, Howard was full of beautiful people, beautiful men, beautiful women, girls, boys, whatever have you.And, you know, it was nice to be in an environment like that, where you really could just kind of fall all in, both feet in, and just, you know, run fast forward.
Shyamala Harris, Kamala’s Mother
So tell me about her mom.
Oh, I loved her so much.She was so much fun.She was a little short woman.We were all very tall, just kind of towered over her.But, I mean, she never felt it, because she had such a very big personality.She was a very strong woman, you know, very resolute.She was a mother.And Kamala always called her mommy, you know, even, you know, to this day, when she talks about her, it was her mommy.That's how she referred to her, because she was just this central pivotal figure in her entire life.
And she would always, throughout undergrad, talk about her mother all the time and her sister Maya.And I remember the day [Kamala Harris' niece] Meena was born.And even her father.And I met both of her parents.I had my son the first year in law school.And so, I dragged him out to California, and her mother just loved him.And she was very nurturing.She was a very nurturing woman, a very loving woman.But, she was no-nonsense, no-nonsense, whatsoever.So, she was probably very exact, and she held a very high standard for both of her girls, and I think for everybody, honestly.She held a very high standard for the things that you needed to do in life.And just no-nonsense.
I mean her mom's path is so remarkable, to leave India as a teenager, to come out on her own, to be in a field where there are very few women, let alone Indian women.I mean, what impact do you think that had on Kamala, to know that was her mom's story?
So she, Shyamala, mommy, she had a very strong constitution.I mean, probably one of the strongest constitutions of anybody I've ever met.And you have to have that, leaving your country as a teenage girl, basically, and traveling halfway around the world, and building your own career, and your own family.So I think she made it very clear to her children that you have to be determined.You have to be goal-oriented.You know, there's no time, really, for play.I mean there is; you know, Kamala is very, a very jovial person, you know, laughing, fun-loving.You know, as strong and focused and as determined as she is, she is equally fun-loving, kind, compassionate, happy.She truly is a happy person.And when I see her—whenever I see her, I just feel like, “There's my friend on TV.” It just makes me happy, just to see her so happy.
And then when I ultimately saw her with Doug [Emhoff], to see how happy she is with him, it's just made me so happy, knowing that she has someone that she loves so deeply.But I know, having a mother like Kamala's mother, it makes you strong, having a strong mother.I had a very strong mother, too.It makes you a very strong person, because there are expectations that are placed upon you.And there's no room for failure.Failure really is never an option.But, you know, in the same sense, there is so much love, and so much kindness, and so much compassion.
I mean, what I remember is, I even told Kamala recently, you know, there's this dish that your mom made.And I said, “Every time I make it to this day, every time I make it, I think of her.” And she's like, “Oh, that makes me so happy you remember that.” And she used to send little care packages to Kamala, as I said.It was like, “What did she send this time?” And so she was very loving.And she just, she provided that support.She provided just, you know, all the essential ingredients, you know, for success, you know, to help kind of serve as that foundation and as that catalyst and catapult for Kamala's career.
Harris’ Childhood
So tell me what you can about her childhood, and how it helped shape Kamala Harris.
Well, I believe Kamala's childhood shaped her in the sense that she came from a household of a working mother.Her mother worked outside of the home.And there were a lot of external influences in her life, her mother's friends, people that lived in the neighborhood.And it's not that different from a lot of not just Black neighborhoods or environments, but I mean, many throughout the country.Many people are raised by working mothers.And she happened to be raised by a single working mother, who was a divorced working mother.
So I think of course there are always nuances that impact a child like that.You know, I was divorced, I was a single working mother raising two children as well.So, I can kind of look at it from the flipside, and imagine what it was like to be raised.But, I mean, she certainly did talk about the schools she went to, and you know, having a very close-knit village that consisted of her mother's friends, and her aunts.And you know, these are all professional people.
And so you have all these different people depositing into your life.And that really helps you figure out who it is that you want to be, and what it is that you want to do in life.So I really think those were the influences in her life, her mother's circle of friends, and those that were supportive, and helped her mother raise her children, when she couldn't be there.
Would she talk about what it was like to grow up biracial in that environment?I mean she's talked about the neighbors who wouldn't let their daughter play with her.But she doesn't talk a lot about it.
So I think what was more significant in her childhood was that she had relatives from India, and she got to travel so much.I mean, that was just really mesmerizing for me, because I had never really gotten on a plane, I don't think, until I was 17 or 18 years old.But she had been all over the world.I mean, mostly to India and back, several times.And she'd go back to visit her grandparents.So she talked about that a lot.She took trips while we were at Howard.… And, you know, her grandfather, if I remember correctly, was involved in politics as well.So I think he had a lot of influence in that.And then her father was a professor at Stanford, an economics professor.So, and so she ultimately majored in economics.So, I think that had a large influence on her life as well.
And she traveled not just to India, I know she traveled to Jamaica, where her father was from as well.So she had a lot of different cultural influences on her childhood outside of Oakland, California, which I'm sure was a very exciting place to be as well, and to grow up in.
Responding to Racism and Sexism
It's interesting.But she doesn't dwell on whatever slights she may have had or dealt with.
No.
Because even when she talks about it later, in the context of Donald Trump, she said, “I've heard it all my life.And, you know, I don't let it get to me.And I move on.” And we've been wondering where that sort of attitude comes from.And how do you deal with the—if the neighbor can't play with you, and have the attitude that she does towards it?
I mean, I think that any Black person who has grown up in America has dealt with slights of those kind, you know, just basic racism whether it was outright racism or hidden racism, you know, the impacts of racism, and what it was like, either from a neighborhood, a neighbor's parents, your childhood friend you went to school with, and, you know, their parents not wanting you to play with them, or teachers at school.I mean, it was just all around.It's just to be Black in America.
Everybody who's been raised as a Black child in America has felt slights.And you just have to overcome it, if you want to move on in your life.I mean, it's something you probably have to compartmentalize.But it's certainly not something that you forget.But you don't dwell on it, because you have your own goals and ambitions.And you can't tell me who I am or what I am, because God has created me.And thankfully, she came from an environment and a family that told her who she was, not to let other people define her, that she could be whoever she wanted to be.
And clearly, she had wonderful examples of that right in her own mother and her own father and her extended family as well.So when you have, you know, the benefit of having examples like that, that surround you, who counter any slights or negative impact from being a Black child in America, and being raised in the midst of racism, when you have a strong, nurturing foundation and environment, then it does build your confidence.And it strengthens your inner resolve.
And that's something that we all brought to Howard.So we all had experiences like that, you know, everybody that came there, we came from all walks of life, really, from rural to suburban and urban, different areas.There were congressmen's children, children of corporate execs, lawyers, doctors, teachers, you know, from all walks of life.Everybody wasn't from the same economic, socioeconomic background.But everybody that came there was smart.I mean, you had to be, just to get in.And you had to be driven to excel in life.
So, you had that.It wasn't baggage that you carried with you, but we certainly—I mean, I think it, for me, it made me more driven, to kind of overcome those negative impressions or slights, quips, you know, whatever, that you might have experienced as a Black child growing up in America.And I'm sure it was the same for Kamala, even, not withstanding the fact that she was interracial, she was still a Black woman.Yes.
Harris’ Decision to Become a Prosecutor
So tell me about her going to law school.And you were going to law school at the same time.
Yes, yes.
On the other coast?
Yep.So I stayed in Washington, D.C.She went to Hastings Law School.And so this was something kind of a new, exciting venture for both of us.And it gave us something to talk about, you know, something more to talk about, because this was an extra added layer to our deepening friendship.
And you also become a prosecutor?
Yes.
Because it seems like an important decision in her life.And she talks about it.And she talks about her mom not agreeing to it, and having to defend it like a thesis.
Yes.
Can you help me understand why she makes that decision that will sort of define who she is, in some ways, in later life, as a politician?
I think all along, public service was deeply embedded, ingrained in her.She wanted to be a public servant.So if you're a lawyer, and you want to be a public servant, I think the natural course is to become a prosecutor, whether it's on the local, state, or federal level, that's what you do.In addition to the public service aspect of it, it really helps to hone your skills, as a lawyer.I mean, you get cases, not bits and pieces of cases that you kind of find in a law firm.But you get the cases, a stack of cases on your desk.And you're just forced to kind of run with it.So it's trial by fire.And you learn by doing, quickly.
So, and it's very exciting in that aspect as well.So yes.So both of us being prosecutors, we had even more to talk about.You know, we'd talked about our cases.I, you know, was a Navy JAG Corps prosecutor.I was a trial counsel in the U.S.Navy Judge Advocate General's Corps.And she was at the Alameda district attorney's office.So, we talked about the different types of cases.We had a lot of the same types of cases.But I mean, I'd hear her talk about child sexual abuse, to me, is only second to murder.And she had murder cases as well.So we talked about cases like that, and just the fatigue, and the exhaustion, but still the excitement in doing that type of work.But I think the real drive behind it was to be a public servant.You are a public servant when you're a prosecutor, and you're standing up on behalf of the people.
Harris Was Often the First and Only
What would it be like for her to go into an environment like that, in law enforcement, and in the district attorney's office, and to be the first, on multiple fronts?
Yes.I would say it's unnerving, but it's not.I mean, you feel like you have to prove yourself, just by showing people.People have a lot to say when you're in an environment like that, and a lot of people question who you are, and what your capabilities are.So you just have to show them, which is exactly what she did.
I mean, it's an amazing part of her story, the fact that there are so many times in her career where there may be people sitting at the table with her, who feel like she doesn't belong.
Yes.Yes.And you have to show those people that you not only belong, but that you command that environment.You command the courtroom.You command the facts of your cases, and you are, in fact, commanding.So you just have to show by doing.
It's that confidence we were talking about, and maybe also that preparation.
And competence.… By showing people who you are through your excellence.And that's when people know who you are, and that you do not only belong there, but that you are a dominant figure in that environment.
And that's the word that you had back in Howard, excellence.
Yes.Oh yeah, always a spirit of excellence.I mean, you go to Howard, and you're surrounded.That is what permeates the entire atmosphere, is just a spirit of excellence.It's, you have to always rise to the occasion of your own life.And because others are expecting you to do it.And that was what it was like to be at Howard.You placed a lot of demands upon yourself, and you placed those demands upon your friends, whether they were spoken or unspoken, people knew that you expected them to excel, because that's what Howard required of you and expected of you.
Harris’ Political Rise
So are you watching as she's rising?And then it's California Attorney General.
Yes.
And what are you thinking as you're seeing her career?
It was always so fun, yes, to say, “My girlfriend is the district attorney in San Francisco.And yeah.Oh, she's the top law enforcement officer in, you know, the State of California.She's Attorney General of California.” And I was very much involved in the National Bar Association, which is the largest and oldest association of African American lawyers, judges, law students.So I was very involved in that.And people would always say, “Oh, can we get Kamala to come?Can you ask Kamala?” And I'm like, “She has a staff.Here's the number of her staff.” But, of course, I would always ask for them, you know, “Can she come speak at the Women Lawyers' luncheon, or breakfast?Or can she come speak at these different seminars, or whatever?” So, it's like having to deal with her staff, so even to this day.
Did you go out there in 2016 when she was running for Senate?
So when Kamala decided that she was going to run for Senate, when she was considering it, she did in fact come to Washington, D.C., I think it might have been during the caucus.I know it was in the fall.I had just moved to Washington, D.C.My son was a year.And she called and invited us to a fundraiser at Vernon Jordan's house, just to see her.And that's when she kind of made the announcement to the people that were there.The room was full of obviously very dynamic individuals and prominent political people, and people within the community, because it was a fundraiser.So, you know, we kind of hung out with her there.And then we had other little events, Howard events that we went to at the same time.So we got to spend some time just listening to her, and it was just like I'd always listened to, you know, her goals and her dreams and aspirations.So it was very exciting.
Harris as a U.S. Senator
She arrives into Washington.And she's only a freshman senator, only.But she becomes something of a national sensation, especially in the Democratic Party.I mean, tell me about watching that, and seeing clips of her in the Senate floating around?
I had a little bit of a front row seat in that, a bird's eye view.I mean, she'd call.We'd have a little conversation.She'd want a fact about something from her past, something about Howard.And she'd be like, “Tell me this.” And I was like, “This.” She was like, “Okay.” I mean very, you know, very short conversations.But she invited me to the [Brett] Kavanaugh hearings.And wow, was that a real treat.And so, I got to sit up in this—you'd never know that there are these special boxes, private boxes, that sit above the floor of the Senate, of those hearings.Because I had always just been there in the back in the audience, and looking at the senators in front of me.But this time, I was in this private box, and it was just me, and they have all the treats there and everything.And I just had a bird’s eye view of everything.And I'm just sitting.I just can't wait until she starts asking her questions.It was just like, yes.Rooting her on the whole time, like just, “Okay, she's next.” She has to go last because she's the youngest, and it was like a two- or three-day event.And I'm like, “Oh God, I hope she asks the questions today, because I'm not coming back tomorrow.” So it was real exciting to see that.
That was really a standout moment for her.
Yes.It was very exciting.
And it's an issue that seems to be personal to her, in the sense that it was about allegations of sexual abuse, or worse than that, in high school.And we've talked to her friend from Canada, Wanda Kagan.
Okay, yeah.
It does seem like that issue goes throughout her career of abuse of kids.Was that a theme you saw, was something that she cared about?
She did.She cared deeply about children, and children's issues, women and children's issues.I mean, we both did as prosecutors.That was something that she wanted to always ensure, that children had a safe, nurturing environment, in which to become who God created them to be, and to eliminate any abuses, any inequities.And I did.That was a consistent theme throughout her entire tenure as a prosecutor.And she carried it to the Senate.Yes.And, I mean, to this day.
Again, I guess it was a personal issue for her.
Yeah.Kamala really wanted to make an impact on the lives of people who had been marginalized, or people who had been victims of crimes, particularly women and children.And that really is a common theme throughout her entire tenure as a prosecutor, which she certainly took to the Senate as well.And it continues to be a theme to this day.I mean, she believes in economic freedom, parity, opportunities for everyone, but particularly for women and children.So yes, that has been a consistent theme throughout her career.
Harris’ 2019 Run for President
Did she tell you when she was running for president?How did you find out that she was going to announce in 2019?
So Kamala wrote a book.And so, she debuted her book in Washington, D.C.And my children and I, we were invited.… So we were all on the front row, and she was being questioned throughout about her book, and her political aspirations, and things like that.And we all kind of went backstage afterwards.And she was signing her book, and giving copies of her book away.And it was like, it's about to come, the announcement.And within, I believe it was in two weeks of that, that the announcement came.So you kind of felt it brewing, yes.
And you weren't there for it, out in Oakland?
I was not.I was working.No, in Washington, D.C.I was not in Oakland for that announcement, no.But I watched, for certain.
I mean 20,000 people, and –
Yeah, it was very electrifying, yes.
And then the campaign obviously doesn't—she doesn't make it to the caucuses and the primaries.Do you know if that was hard for her, for you?
It was certainly hard, you know, but a setback is a set up.
Harris as Vice President
And what was it like to watch her?I mean she becomes the vice president in the United States in a moment of great crisis.It's after January 6th.It's in the middle of COVID.
God, yes.
But what was it like to watch her rise to that?
It instilled such a deep sense of pride, just seeing her operate on that level.I mean, the depth of pride that fills me for the level that she's on now, even becoming the vice president.I mean, it was an atmosphere of COVID.But my children, we went to the inauguration, and they got to speak on air, and just to see them there, just having the time of their lives, even though it wasn't that big of a crowd.But it didn't matter.They were there for their godmother.And to see them in that atmosphere, and how she just was beaming with pride to have her family there and to be able to share with them, including her godchildren, who were my children, I mean, that was a very deep sense of pride.
And then, even throughout COVID, we got to visit her at the White House.So that was just a moment.It was a real moment.And just to say, “I'm praying for you always, and you know, just so, so proud of you.”
As you know, there's a lot of, especially on the right, a portrayal of her.You said you didn't like when people mispronounced her name.That was part of it.There was a depiction of her laugh.There was a whole industry of depicting her.What did you think when you saw that portrayal of her?
I mean, it's just disrespect.But it really comes from people who are really insecure and who have to minimize other people to make themselves feel better about themselves.And so, I mean, it angers me, of course, to hear people say anything negative about her, but it's nothing new in life, as I alluded to earlier, being raised as a Black woman in America.You've heard all kinds of things.Some things are very cruel, are very hurtful.And we're all human.So yes, it does have an impact.But thankfully, she has a very loving, strong, supportive family, you know, and circle of friends.But it is infuriating to have people try to marginalize you, anybody, and particularly somebody that you love.And it's, they don't know her.Or they're just really intimidated by her.And that's kind of the story of being a strong Black woman, getting used to people who are intimidated by you.But you know their type.And so, you just, you know, roll with it.
And it seems like it doesn't change her view of what's possible in American politics, or what's possible for her.
She has her eye on the prize.She always has.So I mean, and as I said, she's very focused, very driven, very goal-oriented….
We've talked about her strength.But those are tough couple of years, the first couple years as vice president.
Yes.Oh, absolutely.You're learning the job.I mean, you're really learning the job of president, it's like on-the-job training because you're dealing with every single issue that the president is dealing with.And you're not held to the highest standard, of course, he is.But, you know, she's learned that job by being there, in the room, for every major issue.
After the Dobbs Decision
Well, let me ask you first about the moment, about the Dobbs decision.Because some people point to that as a place where she found her niche inside the administration, where Joe Biden wasn't as comfortable with talking about the issue of abortion, and wouldn't say the word.
Yes.
Did you see her come out in that period?
I did.She came to life.And I said, “There's Kamala.” I mean, you know, when you're watching CNN, I watch it day and night, and then you see her, and she's attacking that issue.And I'm like yelling, “Yes!” You know.“There she is!” And just so happy that she's able to really kind of articulate and express what it really meant, and the impact that it was going to have, and the work that needed to be done as a result of that decision.So yes.
But there's something in that moment that suddenly, she penetrates in every way, she gets attention in a different way.
So when you think about the Dobbs question, the Dobbs decision, and you're wondering, you know, was I happy to see Kamala alive, or if this was a new Kamala, it certainly wasn't a new Kamala.It was Kamala.And any lawyer that's worth their salt, and we know that she certainly is, whenever you're confronted, or you hear about a bad decision being delivered from the highest court in the land, it makes you really angry, and particularly something that's so significant as the subject matter of the Dobbs decision, that undid decades of precedent.I mean, it's something that makes any good lawyer really angry.And for someone that has such the level of compassion that she has for women's rights, in particular, and the right of women to choose—I mean even her campaign now is freedom, freedom to choose what to do with your own body.So yeah, that's Kamala that you're seeing, that's talking about it.And it really has fueled her and given her a second wind, you know, really a first wind for her campaign.But, because she was talking about it before President Biden decided he was going to step down.
So, I mean, she really did come alive.It really has kind of fueled her passions, … So yes, that's the real Kamala that you're seeing.And it's nothing new.
Harris Becomes the Democratic Presidential Nominee
That moment where she gets called by Joe Biden, and he says he's stepping down.And I mean, you've seen her through crisis.And I just wonder what she is like in a moment like that.Because she says democracy is on the line, and –
Yes.I think it was a very sobering moment for her.I think that from the day of his debate, until that moment, I mean certainly with all the external forces and the pressures that were trying to get him to step down, certainly it had to be running through her mind, this could be an ultimate conclusion to it all.So, knowing Kamala, she was very resolved that she was his running mate the entire time.But certainly, I think that when he actually did step down, I think it was probably very sobering.And just a moment for her to really weigh the magnitude of it.
What do you see now, when you see her in a stadium with thousands of people, and she's the nominee of the Democratic party?
I see her.I see that girl that I met freshman year, who's developed into a dynamic—and she's always been very brilliant, and very composed—and that was the same girl I saw on that debate stage.She was very composed, very poised, very articulate, very well read, spoken, driven, all of those things.And there's a job to do and to be done.And I think that's how she views it.There is a job to be done.There's so much on the line.And the weight of that world is in her hands, and upon her shoulders.And she's up for it.And it's there.And she's shining in this moment.She is indeed shining.
Latest Interviews
Latest Interviews
Policies
Teacher Center
Jon and Jo Ann Hagler on behalf of the Jon L. Hagler Foundation
Koo and Patricia Yuen
FRONTLINE is a registered trademark of WGBH Educational Foundation. Web Site Copyright ©1995-2025 WGBH Educational Foundation. PBS is a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization.
Funding for FRONTLINE is provided through the support of PBS viewers and by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Additional funding is provided by the Abrams Foundation; Park Foundation; the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation; and the FRONTLINE Journalism Fund with major support from Jon and Jo Ann Hagler on behalf of the Jon L. Hagler Foundation, and additional support from Koo and Patricia Yuen. FRONTLINE is a registered trademark of WGBH Educational Foundation. Web Site Copyright ©1995-2025 WGBH Educational Foundation. PBS is a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization.
