The FRONTLINE Interviews

Leo O’Donovan

Biden Family Priest

Leo O’Donovan is an American Catholic priest who served as the president of Georgetown University from 1989 to 2001. He delivered the invocation at the inauguration of President Biden, as well as the homily at the funeral of President Biden’s son Beau.

The following interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on March 12, 2024, prior to Joe Biden’s withdrawal from the presidential race. It has been edited for clarity and length.

This interview appears in:

Biden’s Decision

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Joe Biden’s Catholic Faith

Before we go talk about some of the things that might have shaped [President] Joe Biden, let me just ask you how you first met Joe Biden.

I really don't remember exactly when we first met.But if you're the president of Georgetown [University], you get to meet almost everybody in the Congress.And he was then a senator.And his son Hunter [Biden] was a student at Georgetown, and two of his nieces, Valerie's [Biden Owens] girls, were students at Georgetown.But I frankly don't remember the sequence of when I met them and when I met the president.

I do remember that at some point, I was asked—if you're the president of a university, you think you're in charge, but you really do what you're told, and I was asked to get him to come and give a talk on how his faith influenced his politics.So he came.Huge turnout to hear him.And he has said in several interviews, including in GQ, I think Vanity Fair, that it was the toughest assignment he ever got because he's not talkative about his faith.It's very clear, I think especially in the implications of his faith.But he's a Catholic in action more than in speech.So that's what I remember.

And then, when Beau [Biden] died, and he called me up and asked me to not only preside at the funeral but give the homily, which is very unusual, because usually you'd get two different priests to do the two different tasks, I was drawn into something at once very, very sad and hopeful, because I'm a kind of traditional Catholic.I believe Beau Biden has a very distinguished place in the community of saints in heaven.So hard as it was, I think I have a kind of an ambassador there.

And then we met on a number of other occasions.I used to go to his—when he was vice president, I used to go to his breakfasts on St.Patrick's Day for the “Irish Mafia” of Washington.It was a lot of fun.When I first was invited, I thought, "Gee, that's a long trip to Washington to go to breakfast."And he said, “No, it'll be fun.” So I went, and it was.It was great fun.And he always had the taoiseach [prime minister of Ireland] who would speak to us.And it was not a big deal, maybe 40, maybe 50 people.The White House—it all began with [former President] Bill Clinton.The White House now has a big party for Catholic leaders, but that's at the White House, and it's big.The breakfast was kind of intimate.

And we would do things together.We went together to hear the pope speak in 2015 in his car.I was very embarrassed.We sat in the back, in the plush leather seats, and the two ladies, [First Lady] Jill [Biden] and Valerie, sat in the jump seats.That's not my view of how to treat women, but they understood, etc.

When you said that he said that talking about his faith was the hardest thing, speech he'd ever given, why do you think, for somebody who has been a faithful Catholic for his whole life, that it's harder for him to articulate, to talk about?What is it about Joe Biden that makes it difficult for him?

Why was the assignment difficult?Because I think he is such a practicing Catholic that he doesn't take it for granted.But Catholicism is in the marrow of his bones.You know, we are—Catholicism is a global church.It's not the church in the United States or the church in Europe.We're more and more aware of that.It's a global church.In 1979, my theological mentor, Karl Rahner, wrote a famous essay called “The Fundamental Significance of the Second Vatican Council.”

And Rahner's argument was that the fundamental meaning of the council was that, at the Second Vatican Council, the Catholic Church became fully a world church.One clear evidence of it was that the liturgy was now exercised in local languages and vernacular rather than Latin.But there were many other indications as well.John McGreevy, the provost of [University of] Notre Dame, has written a wonderful book called Catholicism: A Global History of the Catholic Church from the French Revolution to the Papacy of Francis.

We're worldwide, and that influences deeply, I think, President Biden's view of America.We can't be isolationist; we can't be xenophobic; we can't be anti-immigrant.That's not what Catholicism is.From his growing up in Scranton, he was used to a view of the church that became more and more clearly global.Another way to put it would be less Eurocentric and more global.With the rise of the southern sphere of the world, it's all the more obvious.

So he wouldn't talk about unity and diversity as in Catholicism; he would pursue it, which I think he does.Likewise, his God is a God of mercy and forgiveness, not a judging, judgmental God.And he views the world positively, optimistically, because it's been given to us by a loving creator, not the judge of the Last Judgment so much as a loving creator who's given us, I think, the president would say, if not in these words, a model for our humanity in the figure of Jesus.

I don't know that he often refers directly to Jesus, but he goes every Sunday to Mass, the center of which is the memory of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.He carries, as you know, a rosary in his pocket.He really does.He says it.So he has a Marian devotion.But that doesn't mean he's going to refer directly to Mary.And who is Jesus for him?Jesus is, I would say, a model.I'm not sure he would use that word, but he believes, I know, that when Jesus is asked in Mark 12, I think, “What is the greatest commandment?,” without hesitating, Jesus says, “The greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind,” which is a quote from Deuteronomy.“And the second,” he says, “is to love your neighbor as yourself,” which is a quote from Leviticus, two Jewish books.

The unity of the two is, I think, part and parcel of who Joe Biden is.With the development of Catholic thought in the 19th century, addressing the social question—that is to say, what about the working class?—the body of thought called Catholic Social Thought began to develop.It began with Leo XIII's famous encyclical, Rerum novarum (Rights and Duties of Capital and Labor).It continued through, for example, Pius XI's even more courageous encyclical, Quadragesimo Anno; for the Latin people in the audience, that means The 40th Year.And it was, what about the working class?What about the poor?

Well, President Biden is not going to quote encyclicals, but he's going to care about, as he does, I think, profoundly and centrally, the middle class and especially workers.And as the church has developed in the 20th century, especially with the rise of southern parts of Catholicism, he's more and more aware of the plight of the poor, which, of course, is something that [Pope] Francis emphasizes greatly.

Joe Biden’s Irish-Catholic Identity

Thank you.That's a great overview of the theological background that Biden was coming up in as the church is changing as he's growing up.He's also talked about his Catholic faith in a different term, which is cultural, and what it means, not just the theology of it, but to grow up as Catholic, and we talked to somebody who said it's not just that he grew up as Catholic; he grew up as an Irish Catholic.

Very proud of the Irish part.

How do you think that that impacted him, to grow up and to identify as an Irish Catholic in Scranton, then in Delaware?How did that help shape him?

Well, the danger, of course, because I'm Irish Catholic also, the danger is to become more patriotic than the Irish themselves.But how did it affect him?Catholics are, especially in the United States, to which Catholicism has made great contributions, Catholics thrived in the 19th century with the waves of immigration, by building up, in many cases, local national churches and parishes.Chicago was a great example.There were as many Poles and Lithuanians in Chicago, as you could—as you could ever count.

And in Scranton, it was Irish Catholics.But he never, I think, let that be confining.He never became a partisan Catholic.When he went to Ireland not too long ago, he loved it, and he was received with great, great affection.But he doesn't have time, you know, to do things like that very often.The man has an incredible series of challenges before him.

I mean, was it a different time, too?Even in just doing this film, one of the things that happens in [former President] Donald Trump's father's life is he's at a [Ku Klux] Klan rally, where he's arrested, and it's an anti-Catholic Klan rally in the 1920s.When he's growing up in the 1940s, is there a sense of him as a Catholic being on the outside of the power structure, or being different than it might be viewed today to be growing up as an Irish Catholic?

Well, it's obvious that he didn't go to an Ivy League school.He went to the University of Delaware.I don't think he harbors any resentments about how he was treated as a Catholic.You wouldn't want to challenge Joe Biden about his faith.He would put the challenge right down and move on, because he doesn't believe in partisan Catholicism.We are a church of many, many cultures and many different rites, even.There are many rites in the Catholic Church.Most Americans think only of the Latin Rite or the Roman Rite, which we're used to.But there are churches fully in communion with Rome that are Armenian and other backgrounds.

I don't think he has any—he didn't have, for example, he didn't have to give a speech such as [former President John F.] Kennedy gave to the ministers in Houston in 1960, because his commitment to the country was so clear.And as you know, when the boys were severely injured in the accident that killed his wife and little girl, he thought seriously of not taking the Senate seat, which he had just won.And it was—who was it?—one of the senators—

[Former Sen.] Mike Mansfield.

Mike.It was Mike.You're right.Mike Mansfield went to him and said, “You have to take the seat.We need you.” He turned 30 after the election.He couldn't have taken the seat before the election.So he took the seat.But every night, as you may know, he took the train back to Wilmington to be with the boys.That's the way he imitated, I would say, God's care for us.He's not going to say, “I'm doing what God would do.” He's just going to take care of his boys.So he has a profound sense of family, and that's very, very Catholic.

Biden’s Crisis of Faith

Has he talked to you about that moment?Because the loss is so profound, to lose a wife and a daughter and have the boys injured.He's written about having a crisis of faith at that point, about his anger at God.What was that moment before he makes the decision to go to the Senate like for Joe Biden?

Some people think that faith never doubts, and faith is never angry.I think faith is healthier if, when it's thrown a really bad ball, it objects.The Hebrew Scripture is full of arguments between the leaders of the Jewish people and God.Moses literally beggars God to give up destroying his city if he can find 50 just men in the city, and God says, “OK, I won't destroy the city.” And Moses said, “What if I discover 40?” And God says, “OK.” “What if I discover 30?” And God says, “OK.” And finally, “What if I discover 10?” And God gives the whole project up.

So the relationship between a faithful person and a loving God is not without the bumps that any family experiences.I saw most clearly how he felt about Beau's death, not so much during the Mass, because during the Mass, I was pretty preoccupied with seeing that everything went smoothly and that I could remember when I gave the homily and so forth.I think you folks have seen the homily.

But the night before, at the wake, there was supposed to be a wake from 2:00 to 4:00 and 6:00 to 8:00.And I went, of course, at about 2:00, and the vice president was there.And I left around 4:00 and went and had some food with the family and went back, and he was still there.He stood like granite for what, six hours at the coffin.

And the sense you had was, “This was my boy.” And I think probably, if there is a heaven, God wept in heaven with him.He doesn't like to rehearse the whole thing.But he uses it, as you know, he often says to grieving parents or grieving people, “I understand your sorrow.I have lost members of my family,” or, “I have lost my wife.I have lost children,” because he lost two.And he nearly lost the boys.Beau and Hunter, in the hospital, were close to dying.Beau was three; Hunter was two.And in his homily, Hunter gave a wonderful, a beautiful—not a homily, but a wonderful eulogy about his brother.I'd forgive him for anything, because the eulogy was so beautiful.

He began by saying, “My first memory is of waking up in the hospital and having my brother, Beau, lean across from the bed next to me and say, 'I love you.'” And then he turned to a reflection on Beau's life of service and how he had turned to the people of Delaware, whatever their need was, and served them again and again.And he ended the eulogy by saying, “But I like to remember that I was the first person he turned to.” Perfect.Perfect.

There was another great moment in the funeral when [former President] Barack Obama gave one of the eulogies.And he knew Beau Biden.He knew him personally.And he's talking about this wonderful young man who died of this awful disease, and he says at one point, “Well, we all know that Beau Biden was the most popular politician in the state of Delaware, without any question.” And then he looked down to the front row, where Biden is sitting, and says, “Sorry, Joe.” That was a great moment, a great moment.

Joe Biden’s Sons

How close was Joe Biden and his son Beau?

Oh, well, everybody in the family thought that the sun rose and set with him.He was incredibly able and incredibly dedicated when he was diagnosed with that awful glioblastoma, is it called?

Brain cancer.

Anyway, it's what [former Sen.] John McCain died of, and [former Sen.] Teddy Kennedy.When he was diagnosed with that, he was told that he had a 3% chance of survival.But he was such a dedicated young man, and so committed to his work as attorney general, that he kind of pushed that aside, and the family followed suit.Until perhaps three months before he died, he began to—his faculties began to decline precipitously, and they had to acknowledge the fact.

I don't know whether you've read his—the president's book, but he wrote a book, Promise Me, Dad, which weaves the year of Beau's death together with the president's service of Obama as vice president, and the question of whether he would run again for—whether he would run for the presidency.But the key leitmotif is Beau's dying and his finally coming to realize that he wasn't in a position to run for public office like that.I think it was Mike Donilon, his chief strategic adviser, who said to him at one meeting, “Mr.Vice President, I don't think you're ready to do this.” You don't ordinarily say things like that to vice presidents.But of course it was wise.…

That relationship between the president and the two boys who survived this car accident, I mean, how—all fathers care for their children, for their boys, but he's in an extraordinary situation after that car accident of having to take care of them in the wake of tragedy.How do you think that bonded him with both Beau and Hunter?

Yeah.Well, you know, Mike, I think we suffer as much as we can love.And one thinks that as one loves more, one suffers less.But as one loves more, one is more subject to suffering, I think.And there again, Jesus is the model for us.This man who only did good things, healed people, associated with people of every background, told stories that once you hear them you never forget them and that enrich your moral life, nevertheless is treated like the worst of criminals and accepts it, though not without an argument.

He says in the garden, “Father, if this cup can pass from me, please.But not my will, but yours be done.” So in some ways, I think the president is following his fundamental paternal instinct and, so to speak, doesn't have a choice, so to speak.But it's the choice of love, which exposes itself to suffering like nothing else does.…

Beau Biden’s Death

Let me ask you something else about Beau, because he's written, as you say, he wrote his book, Promise Me, Dad.What was Beau's—what did Beau say to his dad at the end?

He didn't say, “Promise me you'll still run.” He didn't say that.He said, “Promise me you'll never give up,” or words to that effect.I don't remember them exactly.

“Promise me you'll be OK,” I think.

That sounds good.That sounds good.When the president wrote the book, he asked me to go to Washington and introduce the book tour, which I did at some theater; I forget where.And after giving the introduction—it was in the form of an interview—I was taken down, sat next to Jill.And he told the story, as he has often, that he had to propose five times before she finally said yes, and he said, as he often says, “And I think she didn't fall in love with me; she fell in love with the boys,” at which point she turned and just winked at me, and I thought, I guess it's true.

… He titles his book that: Promise Me, Dad.What is it that Beau is saying to Joe Biden, and what does he take from that moment, as his son is dying?

I think he took from it a loving, very intelligent son's utter devotion to him.And it was like the passing of the baton of leadership, which by rights should have come to Beau.But it was like saying, “Well, you still have it.Carry it.” I don't think it was an insinuation of presidential candidacy.On the other hand, I wouldn't—I consider the relationship between the president and his son something sacred.I would never ask about that.

Is that part of Joe Biden's coping mechanism in the wake of tragedy?After the first car accident, he goes, and he joins the Senate, and he, as you say, travels back.But he writes about finding a home in the Senate, and after this tragedy, it takes a while, that he ends up returning to politics.Is that part of his way of coping with tragedy?

Well, isn't it the choice we all have?If something very hard, very harsh happens, your choice is to let it dispirit you, let it turn you back, or encourage you to recommit, to stand up again and learn from the sorrow of the tragedy.I think we learned that from the Greek dramatists.The suffering of the heroes is the instruction of the people in the audience.

He doesn't use the losses he's suffered in public speaking.He uses them in personal consolation, moments of personal consolation.In that regard, I think he displays an empathy and a compassion which reminds me, frankly, of Bill Clinton, who, when presented with sorrow, instinctively knows how to respond consolingly.I've heard him do it often.For example, at the great service for [former German Chancellor] Helmut Kohl in the European Parliament in Strasbourg, which I went to because Kohl was a very good friend.And Clinton would do it, or does it, with bare notes and extemporaneous elaboration at some length, one might add.

… You mentioned the rosary that he has, Beau's rosary that he has in his hands, and you see it at different moments.What does that mean to him?What does it mean that he carries Beau's rosary?

….You know what it is?

It's not just any rosary.

The rosary is probably one of the most Scranton things about him.It's an old-fashioned but very beloved devotion, largely to Our Lady, to Mary.And his mother was a huge influence on the president.And she was a very strong woman.I don't know whether she—I have no idea—but it was probably she who introduced him to the rosary, but I don't know that.I've never thought it appropriate to ask, “Where'd you get your first rosary?” I have my dad's.

Does it surprise you that, when he was a young boy, he talked about becoming a priest?

Oh, I think half the boys in Scranton thought about that.It's a very Catholic town.I personally didn't think about it until much, much later, and that was fine.He would have made a great priest, but he makes a better president.

Biden Considered the Priesthood

… You mentioned that he would make a good priest, and you're not the first person who has said that, that his approach to politics is almost—has some parallels of your local parish priest and how he would relate to people and learn people's names, and some of the skills are similar.Do you see a parallel there with Joe Biden, the politician, and the boy who thought maybe he'd want to be a priest?

Well, that brings up an interesting question not only about a politician with priestly skills, but a priest with political skills.And it brings up the question of who a priest is.I don't think a priest is only or primarily even the minister of sacraments, although a priest is certainly that.But I think a priest is somebody who serves the building of a community around its faith, and who either himself or with assistants, fellow priests, laypeople in the parish, knows how to take a large number of people and help them to be a community of faith.So inevitably, at his most successful, a priest should have a common touch.…

That's another thing.I don't think the president has studied, but I think he has assimilated the interreligious openness that came to the church at Vatican II.Catholic as he is, he is completely comfortable with people of other faiths, as we're learning to be, Catholics are learning to be, and thinks of them as a source of wisdom and enlightenment, which sounds very much like whom?Pope Francis, no?It is Pope Francis.…

Do you think that he—I mean, if his vocation was not going to be the priesthood, do you think that he sees politics as a vocation, as a calling?

Oh, for sure, for sure.Do you know Diary of a Country Priest by Bernanos?That's your assignment.If you don't accept the assignment, I'm going to leave the room now.It's a great novel by Georges Bernanos, which is in the form of a diary.And the last words are, “Grace is all.” In other words, another way to put it is, our lives are shared gifts, and everything that we cherish most comes to us from a loving God, and is put in our hands to handle gracefully.

So a person is very fortunate, and many people do it without thinking of it, to see their lives as not just jobs or work, but vocations, God calling them to be more human, in union with other human beings, supported by God's grace, for which the model is God's son, Jesus, and of which we have witness in the Holy Spirit, which, as St.Paul says, is poured every day into our hearts.

Joe Biden would never put it that way, but that's what he's doing.He's not president to please himself.I mean, of course, he has a natural amount of human pride for sure, but he's a servant.Who would go through what he's gone through unless it was for the welfare of people?

When Jesus comes on the scene in Mark's Gospel, he says, “The time is fulfilled.And the kingdom of God is at hand.Repent and believe in the Gospel.” Paraphrased, “The kingdom of God” means the rule of justice and peace among people is not a distant hope, but a current reality and calling.That's the Gospel.That's the good news.So anybody who serves that, it seems to me, is sharing in the priesthood of ordained priests.

It's so interesting, because I think most people would not say that about Joe Biden, right?You've heard people make claims about Donald Trump, especially evangelicals, about his place.But I don't think most people would think that Joe Biden sees politics as a calling or vocation in that way.

Do you think he thinks he's pleasing God with his work?I'm sure he does.I'm sure when he goes to Mass every week, he is saying, in effect, “I'd like to be more like your son, who lived and died for us, and is now risen and forming the communion of saints.” It's not out there.Faith is not some code of conduct out there.It's in here.It's the unspeakable center of a believing person's heart.That's what faith is.And when people say, “Well, how does his faith appear here?,” it's his inmost spring.

… For youth, but for Joe Biden, who's thinking about going into politics, when he's in college, he's watching John F.Kennedy.He has a bust of Bobby in the Oval Office.He's talked a lot about the Kennedys.Why would the Kennedys be important to Joe Biden?

Well, they still fascinate us, don't they?They were the American equivalent of the British royal family.And much that we want to be a democracy, independent of King George and his progeny, we have this hankering after the monarchy.It amazes me how much space is given to—now it's Kate, who apparently had a bad picture taken.I feel so sorry for her.Also, they were Catholic.Rose was—Mrs.Kennedy was fiercely Catholic.I think Joe's family was much, much simpler, but in terms of family values, pretty impressive.

Joe Kennedy was not my ideal of a father, I have to say.I was a great admirer of Jack, and probably even a greater admirer of Bobby, whose death was terrible.The two of them were terrible losses, terrible losses, and awful for the country.

… You've linked Joe Biden's Catholicism to sort of the attitudes of the current pope, to the post-Vatican II Catholic Church, to the universalism.But as you know, there's another part of Catholicism, and there are some who are critics of Joe Biden and his views on abortion, and take a different approach to all these issues.How do you think he navigates that, the priests or the bishops who say you can't have communion here if you're a politician who's not going to take a strong pro-life stand?How hard is that for him?

Well, first of all, the cardinal prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, Luis Ladaria, when that issue first came up, said, “It is unwise to make communion a political issue.” I'd say a number of things.First of all, the president is not pro-abortion.He knows that the teaching of the church is against abortion.He knows that Francis is against abortion, has called it murder.

But he also knows that single-issue politics is a very unwise course.And I presume he knows—I think I've told him—that the pope has said that abortion is one of the moral issues that cry out for address, others being wars, climate change, poverty, nuclear arms development.The pope has stated that explicitly, that there are many issues before politicians.

Third, there's a difference between a moral position or a moral judgment and a legal enactment.In many ways, criminalizing abortion may be less effective than doing things that will help women bring their pregnancies to term.The distinction between moral judgment and legalizing issues goes back to [Italian theologian St.] Thomas Aquinas at least.So not everything that is wrong can be criminalized or should be.It's not effective; it can't be policed.

And what we've seen since the overturning of Roe v.Wade is an increase, unfortunately, in the number of abortions.Why is that?I think a large part of it is that we—that the court scared women, and women are no longer going to accept being told what they can do by a court that was appointed entirely by men.They just won't listen to it.Even if they're very much against abortion, they want to have a final decision themselves.

So what should we do?We should work to reduce the rate of abortions by taking care of pregnant women socially, with social services, better maternal care, better nursing care, better post-delivery care, better child care, better educational care.And, as a matter of fact, when an administration has been Democratic, there has been a reduction in almost all cases—of Democratic administrations—of the number of abortions, whereas under Republican administrations, the rate of abortions has gone at least some up, and certainly since Dobbs [v. Jackson Women's Health Organization], certainly.¹

The Independent: Why abortion rates go down under Democratic presidents

So it's very delicate, and I wouldn't want to be understood to think that abortion is a light matter.It's not.I agree with the pope.I agree with the traditional Catholic teaching.The question is, how to diminish the number of abortions.I think that's more important.Lowering the rate of abortions is more important than criminalizing it.If your attention is all on the legal side, you overlook what can help a woman to decide, “Well, I can have this baby.” Furthermore, I think women should be able to make the final decision.And if we don't let them, thank God they'll let us know, especially in my church, which neglects the voice of women.It's doing better, but we have a long ways to go.

Biden’s Decision to Run in 2020

To pick up the story where we had left it, after Beau's death, are you in touch with future President Biden at that point between Beau's death and his decision to run in 2020?Does he progress?Because he was too—you know, he wasn't able to run in 2016.Do you see a change in Joe Biden in those years, in the run-up to his decision that he's going to run again and challenge Donald Trump for the presidency?

Well, I think he mourned and took the time, wisely, to mourn.And I do think he was egged on, or he felt urged by the possibility of Mr.Trump's being elected.And I think there was a conclusion of mourning and a surge of patriotism and self-confidence that led him to go back on the field.

I mean, that's what he said.He said Charlottesville was an inspiration to him in deciding to run.

Yes, yes, that's right.That's a good point.Charlottesville was a disgrace.The president showed a lack of moral judgment that was appalling, and trying to please everybody out of ignorance.There's a great deal of ignorance behind many of the former president's speeches.He doesn't know how the government works.He doesn't know what NATO is about.He doesn't know that he comes insofar as he appeals to evangelicals.He doesn’t know that the great Jewish tradition is to welcome the exile because we were exiles in Egypt.You can't be a Jew and be anti-immigrant.You just can't.It's as clear as can be.Well, I mean, you can of course, but it's not consistent with Judaism's great tradition, which has been purchased at the cost of great suffering, of course.

… What was it like giving the invocation?At that moment, after Jan.6, in the midst of a pandemic, the military, the social distancing, what was that moment like?He really comes—he starts his presidency in a moment of crisis, it seems like.

Which day?

The inauguration.Does it feel like a moment of crisis with happening just days after Jan.6, in the middle of the pandemic?

Yes.I would say rather it was a moment of relief.I wrote in my invocation, I might even have used the word “crisis.” I don't remember; I haven't reread that since I gave it.But I know that I wrote in the invocation the line, “We come to you on our knees, looking for your leadership.” But what I said was, “We come to you on our knees.” I showed the text to two very astute people, and one of them said, “I would take out that line about being on our knees.” He's more sober than I am, and a better political scientist than I am.But I kept the line.And it was a way of saying, “We’ve been through a great deal, and we really need help.” That's what I intended.…

So let's go to the Joe Biden now, who's running for reelection and who, as you know, is behind in the polls—

Yes.

—being questioned about his mental acuity, and is he too old.Who is the Joe Biden that you know, in this moment of challenge and doubt from even people who had supported him?

I think it's going to be a great story how he comes from behind and gives the American public new confidence that the American dream is still possible.I think he will come from behind.I understand that anybody comparing him to his earlier self, or his—not to mention his much earlier self—will notice that he's older.Do people remember how gray Barack Obama got?He got very gray by the end of his term.

Everybody I know who is at all close to him says he's completely with it.The occasional missteps in speech are due to his early history as a stutterer.But the man is experienced and wise, and I don't think he enjoyed being so pugilistic in his State of the Union, but he pretty well had to, for two reasons: because people kept claiming that he didn't have the old fight in him; and secondly, because his almost certain opponent trades in contemptuous slurs and attacks on people, which the archbishop of Los Angeles would have begged him not to do, by the way.

You don't call a woman whom you've just defeated in several primaries “birdbrain.” That's—that's not presidential.It's something you don't want your children to hear.And you'll never hear anything like that from Joe Biden.

But you weren't surprised to see that Joe Biden [came] out fighting at the State of the Union?That did surprise some people to see.

I pretty much expected it, and I liked where he started, starting with the importance of NATO, which I totally believe the former president does not understand.He thinks NATO is a dues-paying organization and has no sense of mutual accountability.And secondly, I think he was wise to remind people that a bill had been presented which had majority support, that would have enacted strict control of the border as well as providing support for Ukraine, but that it was kept off the ledger for political reasons.That was a good place to start, because the latter is simply appalling.

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