TOP
Megyn Kelly
Chapters
The FRONTLINE Interviews
Megyn Kelly
The Megyn Kelly Show
Megyn Kelly is a journalist and political commentator who worked at Fox News from 2004 to 2017. She has moderated five presidential debates. Kelly is currently the host of the podcast The Megyn Kelly Show.
The following interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on December 4, 2024. It has been edited for clarity and length.
This interview appears in:
Text Interview:
Highlight text to share it
We'll go back and do most of the interview in chronology, but let's just start at the end, at election night, as it becomes clear that Donald Trump has made a victory that's going to return him to the White House.How remarkable a moment it is, how big a comeback is that for somebody who left the White House in the way that he did?
I think it's the biggest political comeback in history.You could make the case it's the biggest comeback in history, period.You think back to after Jan. 6 and the amount of media coverage about Trump's behavior and what happened on the Capitol that day, and it was universally terrible.There wasn't even the most ardent Trump fan defending it.At most, they were silent.It was an onslaught of negative coverage, understandably.And it went on for months, months and months and months, to the point where he had been entirely ruled out.There was only a question about whether he might face criminal charges of some sort.But the thought of him coming back to the presidency was not even remotely a possibility.And in fact, even the thought of people around him, like family members and supporters ever running for office, seemed like a total impossibility to everyone but Trump.And that's the thing about this guy.He doesn't see himself in the same terms that the rest of us see ourselves.There's a detachment from reality that serves him very well.I mean, he dreams the impossible dream, and then, before you know it, it's happened, where the rest of us would look at that and say, “All right, I've got to find something else to do.”But the same thing, I think, that made Trump deny that he could have possibly lost an election is the thing that made him say, “Of course I will be the nominee the next time if I choose to run.”And then, in a way, he manifested it.In a way, <i>The Power of Positive Thinking</i>, which, by the way, is a hugely influential book in Trump's life and his history, actually works for the guy.And before you knew it, we wound up on Nov. 5, 2024, with Donald Trump winning the presidency again.
You mentioned <i>The Power of Positive Thinking. </i>The other thing, when we do his biography that people talk about, is his dad and this idea of winners and losers, which is something he talks about, about being a winner.How important do you think that moment—what is it like for Donald Trump at that moment when he realizes he's won, he's made this big, this comeback, that he's headed back to the presidency?
I think those are real moments of joy for Donald Trump.I don't—I wouldn't describe Trump—I think he’s a happy warrior, and I think he's entertained by a lot of things.I'm not sure I'd call him truly like a joyful guy.He's a serious guy, you know.He's not silly.But I think, when you see him accomplish something big, like whether it's in business or marrying somebody as extraordinary as Melania or doing something as incredible as winning the presidency, you can see that look on his face that is a little calmer, is a little bit more serene.There's a greater maturity to the look, where I think it is true joy and appreciation for what this crazy life has brought to him, what he's made it bring to him.
Let's go back to when you first come across—when a lot of us first come across him as a politician in 2015 and 2016.There's a lot of moments along the way where it seems like he would be out, starting with comments about John McCain, his interaction with you.There's a lot of places where it seems like he would be done.What is it, when you look back at him as a politician in those years, was it that allowed him to overcome everybody saying, “There's no way,” laughing at him, that he's going to get this nomination or win?
Well, I think many of us looked at his comments as controversial or unacceptable or offensive, and there was a certain population in the country that saw one thing: wrecking ball, middle finger, burn it down.He doesn't care who he's offending.He doesn't care if it's John McCain, someone as beloved as John McCain, a war hero—which Trump took issue with.He doesn't care if it's this well-known personality on Fox News prime time, a woman no less.That can be quicksand for a powerful man.No problem.He doesn't care if it's a Gold Star family, which any politician would say, “For the love of God, don't attack them.”Didn't care.Federal judge, nope, no problem.And Hillary Clinton, on the debate stage, openly saying, “They're corrupt.I'd put her in jail.”All that.And while a lot of these so-called establishment types recoiled in horror, this other segment of the population, which had been ignored for so long, saw, “That's our fighter.That's our guy.He's not with them.He doesn't want to be part of their club.Finally, someone who doesn't care if he's part of their club or not, which makes him part of our club.We've never had somebody who's part of our club, who wants this job.”And that is what I believe made those people get up off the couch for the first time ever and pull the lever for him.
Do you know why he doesn't care?Because he cares about winning, and he's being told the things he's doing are making him lose.
Well, I'm going to blow your mind with the answer: I think Trump is honest.I mean, he lies like all politicians lie, but there is a strain in Trump that's extremely honest.He's on sort of the radical honesty program when it comes to some things.And the way the system works, the way it's set up, is one of them.And that was a really important thing to have right both times he won, because he was able to stand up there and say, “That's right, I don't pay taxes.It makes me smart,” or, “Yeah, you've all been in my office on bended knee asking me for money, and I paid you both just so I could own you.”People had never heard anybody talk like that before.And it was true.You knew it was true.You can tell when someone's saying something that is really true and radical and controversial.It has an air to it that resonates.And Trump is very adept at that, very.So it worked.It worked for the regular man.It worked for the more sophisticated man who felt maybe a little threatened by it all, but also intrigued by it.And I think with now, what, almost 10 years of Trump in the public sphere, we can all see it so much more clearly, right, like what he was doing and how it wasn't an act and it wasn't a tactic.It's who he is.It's the guy right now who tried to put [former U.S. Rep.] Matt Gaetz in charge of the DOJ [Department of Justice].It's the guy who tried to put Pete Hegseth in charge of DoD [Department of Defense], the guy who's putting [former U.S. Rep.] Tulsi [Gabbard] as a DNI [Director of National Intelligence], the guy who's putting RFKJ [Robert F. Kennedy Jr.] as head of HHS [Department of Health and Human Services].Wrecking ball, middle finger, burn it down.I'm anti-your fancy elite establishment circles.
And the biggest, the biggest comeback that seemed like he was gone was the <i>Access Hollywood</i> moment.Did you think he was down in that moment?And what do you ascribe to his comeback from that?
100% I thought it was over for Trump.I didn't think he was going to withdraw after <i>Access Hollywood</i>, but I certainly thought he had no chance of winning.That was unlike anything we'd ever seen before, that sort of a tape with that kind of language.And it was the only time Trump apologized.He did that sort of self-flagellation tape, where he called it “locker room talk.”But it was an extraordinary moment.And I remember Bill Bennett, former education secretary under [former President Ronald] Reagan and a Fox News contributor, came on my show that night.And he had been a big Trump defender.And he was so forlorn saying, “It's just such a shame.What a shame.It was, like, looking so good for him.”And I trusted Bill.And I thought, he's right.He's calling it.He's got years of experience.And then Trump the fighter—I mean, that's really, if you could make a movie about Donald Trump, it should be called <i>The Fighter</i>.Trump the fighter got back up and said, “No, I will not let you keep me down here,” and showed up at that debate that followed with Juanita Broaddrick and Kathleen Willey.1And we all, again, like the buttoned-up establishment types were like, “Oh, the impropriety.Oh, my goodness.We've never seen such a—what is he doing?Oh, my God, it's working.”He totally neutralized the growing narrative about him and women and made the choices look a lot less clear than they had prior to him reminding us what the husband of his opponent had done for years to women.Very effective technique and part of Trump's just unwillingness to stay down.
That's interesting, because you've added to it now <i>The Power of Positive Thinking </i>but also <i>The Fighter </i>is part of how he does the comeback.And I guess that's something you can see throughout his life.
Well, I mean, there's no better example than what happened in July of 2024, right?The first assassination attempt, what did he say?What did he say with the fist up?It's no accident, if you've been watching Trump, that the first thing that came to mind was him telling his supporters to fight.That wasn't an act; it wasn't an affectation.That is who he is in his core.And Trump looked angry in that moment.And sometimes when you're angry, your truest feeling will come out.Sometimes a false feeling will come, but sometimes it's your truest and deepest feeling.And you will say the thing you mean above all other things.And I do believe that message was sincere.And it was a rallying cry for his supporters and fans and others, beyond.We saw people like Mark Zuckerberg coming out and saying, “What a badass moment.”We saw Democrats like Nate Silver, others, praising this moment you wouldn't expect your average Democrat to relate to, but it was a universal message, and it was totally authentic for him.
Kelly’s History with Trump
… We've talked to you before about the debate moment, but I'm curious about now, looking back on it, from where you are now, with the perspective of 2024, do you look back on it differently, the interaction with him, what happened to you afterwards?2
Well, I think I have a better perspective on it now.I'm able to put it in the proper file now.I think it was—Trump's response to me that night and thereafter was part of his fighter nature and was also part of his messaging to the populace that there were no sacred cows for Trump, including a Fox News anchor.He didn't care about bending the knee, not to me but to Rupert Murdoch, who I think he viewed as a proxy.And I know Steve Bannon, I think to this day, thinks that Rupert Murdoch was behind my tough questions and/or Bret's or Chris'.It isn't true.I feel like people would believe me by this point.I would just be telling you if I had been given that question by somebody.That was my question.And you know, if you look back at the candidates' Achilles' heels, it was kind of obvious, even back then, that that would be one you'd raise with Trump.But I think that's how Trump saw it, and that's why he wasn't afraid to attack me, and that's why, actually, he wound up enjoying the attack and thinking it was an important piece of his campaign.And it did resonate.His poll numbers went up, not down, as a result of all that.The aftermath that followed, and the unpleasantness in my own life, which was unleashed by Trump repeatedly bringing it up and staying on me, and really by Bannon, at Breitbart, as you guys have documented before, I experienced that so personally when it happened to me that I really wasn't able to nor interested in thinking about what was behind it.I just wanted it to stop.Now, with the benefit of all these years, I see they were trying to win the presidency, and the attacks weren't exactly on Megyn Kelly, the person.They were on Megyn Kelly, the brand, the journalist, who was a very useful foil in some ways.And if they could bring her down or show to the electorate they weren't afraid of her, and they were happy to keep bashing her, it would send a message that they were tough, that they would fight for them, that when the chips were down on something like the Brett Kavanaugh nomination, they wouldn't care then, either.That, too, would not be a sacred cow—#MeToo allegations—against a Supreme Court Justice nominee.So I have a better view on what went on there.It doesn't make it any less pleasant, but with time, the memory does you a solid of letting you forget some of the worst edges around something like that.
Is that part of his method, too, though, willingness to do things that other people would find maybe unethical, to attack somebody personally like that when they know what the consequences might be?Is that part of his—?
Well, it's—I would draw a distinction between Trump and Bannon there.I think Bannon is a street fighter and will take out the brass knuckles and get you.He will hit you, and he won't feel sorry about it.And he's taken quite a few hits himself, too.The man just got let out of jail for an alleged crime that Merrick Garland committed too, Eric Holder.3So that's Bannon.I think Trump, I see his motivations a little different.I think he's got this flare for the dramatic.Like, I have a 13-year-old girl.Thirteen-year-old girls, they love drama, and I think Trump’s got a fair amount of that in him, too.And it was actually a very interesting exchange, where, when I finally went to see him at Trump Tower after nine months of him poking me, we made up.I said, “Please knock it off.I've had enough of this.You've had your fun.Let's move on.”And he was very magnanimous, very nice about it.But the last thing he said to me before I walked out of his office was, “You know, Megyn, if they're not talking about us, that's not such a good thing.”So I don't see the Trump behavior—it was a crazy moment for me, because I was like, “What? Was this real?Was this anger, or was this performance art? What was this?”It was real on my end.But it was the first time it really dawned on me that this actually wasn't necessarily brutal on Trump's part.It was kind of more fun and entertaining and strategic and tactical.And I think, for Bannon, it was all strategic and also somewhat brutal, and, you know, they didn't much care about the consequences.I don't think Trump was even actually thinking about them.Bannon thought about them and said, “Part of the cost of business.”
Trump’s First Term
… As you're watching Donald Trump's presidency, for a lot of us, especially the media, as we watch it, we see chaos.We see people being fired.We hear one thing on North Korea, and then it's completely different the next moment.When you're watching the Trump presidency, what do you make of it?Is it chaos, his first term?
Somewhat chaotic, for sure.We'd never had a president like that.And Trump does enjoy being the center of attention.And I think one of the reasons why it didn't go well for him in 2020 was people don't want to think about their president that much.And when Trump is on the national scene, you think about him all the time, because attention is his oxygen.So he likes that.And there's a fair amount of people who actually agree and do want to think about him a lot, because he's very entertaining.But then it can get too much, where you're like, “I’ve got to think about my own problems, my own life.”So I think that was a piece of the Trump presidency.He enjoyed being covered nonstop.The media was 100% codependent with him on his need for attention.And he was a ratings reviver.He was a CPR resuscitation machine for cable news and a dwindling broadcast audience as well.So you can see why it worked the way it did.And Trump had never been in government before.So he didn't really understand how the systems worked.It's part of the reason that he was elected.So that caused some chaos as well.But I also think Trump doesn't have a need for order the way many of the rest of us do.He's fine with some chaos, you know.Who was it? It was—was it [former Florida Gov.] Jeb Bush who said he's been a chaos candidate, and he'll be a chaos president.4That wasn't all wrong, but that doesn't mean it didn't work.It doesn't mean the country didn't do well.Just had to kind of accept that there was going to be a fair amount of drama attached to the office.
We talked to Brad Parscale, who said that before COVID, they felt really confident about where Trump was and that it was in the response to COVID that the campaign really, really ran into trouble.When you look back at that, at Trump and giving the press conferences and his response to COVID, what did that reveal about the man that we're talking about?
Well, Trump, he's not much for thoughtful reflection before he comments on anything.He shoots from the hip.He's not big on deep research before he goes out and speaks on something.And I think he'd been given certain advice.One of the things he gets mocked for is saying, “Oh, the summer is going to come, and it's going to go away.”Can I tell you something?My personal physician is one of the top infectious disease physicians in New York City.He said the exact same thing to me, exact same thing.Is it really that mockable and laughable?That had been the experience of infectious disease doctors with other viruses.So it's fun to just make fun of Trump because he does shoot from the hip, and he says some weird things, but a lot of what he gets attacked for is just somebody hasn't heard it from one of their favorite sources, and they like to paint Trump as a buffoon.Look at his interview with Joe Rogan during the campaign.He said the thing about whales going crazy from the windmill sound under the ocean.It's true.Go look at Michael Shellenberger's documentary on this very issue, a former Greenpeace guy, worked in the Obama administration, with Solyndra, trying to get those solar panels up everywhere.5It's a real thing.He wasn't making that up.6But it's fun to make fun of Trump—and his detractors, they're successful at trying to make just like a buffoon out of him when he says things they're not familiar with or they have a political agenda and motive not to believe.So there was some of that during COVID.And of course Trump wasn't his own best friend during that whole thing, because it was a very sensitive time, and there were people who were really scared, and Trump didn't have a ton of sensitivity for that.I mean going back to <i>The Power of Positive Thinking</i>, I think Trump's general philosophy was, “I’m the commander in chief, and I’m going to settle people's nerves.I'm going to make them feel better about things,” as opposed to an approach that is just relentlessly factual, right?And that was tactical.That's who he is.And it's not controllable. It's in him.And I'll just give you one other example.After Trump and I made up after the nine months post-debate, we sat for an interview together, and it did fine.It wasn't a ratings smash.And Trump called me up after the fact, and we were up against the season finale of, I can't remember, some very popular show.And rather than saying, like, “We did OK.It was great. Whatever. The audience enjoyed it,”he was like, “We won. We beat everybody.”Well, not exactly, but OK.You go with it, right.Like, “Yes, Mr. President, great.Thank you for doing it.”That's who he is.And so that can really work in reviving somebody who's down on a playing field, who needs to play that fourth quarter and really get the ball into the end zone.And it might work in stopping a panic at an assassination attempt, when people are worried about getting shot.It probably works a little less well when you're talking about an infectious disease and people who are really scared about how fast it's spreading and what exactly do they need to do to protect themselves.So that's kind of how I saw the Trump press conferences during that time.
5
University of Austin: Michael Shellenberger Biography
Trump’s 2020 Election Loss
The other place where there's that question about <i>The Power of Positive Thinking, </i>about the guy who has his own reality, and he has things as they want to be, is that period between the election and Jan. 6, where he's insisting that he won.How do you understand him in that period?Is that part of what the problem is, if there is a problem?
Well, this is one of the main problems, among many, that I always saw with the [special counsel] Jack Smith case against Trump.He needed to prove that Trump, in his head, knew he had lost and refused to accept it, filed all these legal challenges, and the fake electors and all that stuff, knowing that he was committing a fraudulent scheme.And I always thought, as an attorney, there is zero chance he's going to convince a jury of that.He kept putting in his briefs and he kept offering in front of grand juries and so on. Witnesses who had been around Trump, who told these lawyers and grand juries, “I told him he lost.I told him there's no way we actually won this state.I told him those 11,000 votes were real,” and Jack Smith would say, “Aha.I got him.”And if you know Trump personally or just from close observation over these years, you know that that doesn't mean anything about what Trump actually believes.Being told that by [former U.S. Attorney General] Bill Barr does not in any way mean Trump now believes it.Trump cannot see himself through the prism of loser.He is incapable of doing it, which has been an enormous boon to him his entire life, but not in that particular circumstance.And I think it's what caused his very terrible behavior, because on Trump's part, I really think it was sincere.And while you could find some cherry-picked comment here or there, where he came close to sort of acknowledging maybe he lost, the vast majority of what he said and did, 99.99%, all supported the conclusion that Trump had really convinced himself the thing had been stolen.
Does that give you concern about him going into another—I mean, it seems like it was a dangerous moment for him, even if he believed it truly.
Well, he's not up for reelection, so not really.I mean, it's not great.I'm not going to lie.I certainly don't want to see a repeat of that.But I don't think we're in danger of that, because he's not running again.And generally people who think like that—I don't know if it's narcissism, and I'm not prepared or capable of diagnosing it—but that belief and that need doesn't transfer onto somebody else.Like it's not—he wouldn't feel the need to transfer that to JD Vance or to a child.It truly is all about them and who they are and what's important with their image.So look, I voted for Trump, and I wanted others to vote for Trump, but I'm not going to lie: This is not a great thing that he did or an ability that we should feel terrific about as he heads back in.I think the best thing we can hope for, and the thing I'm hoping for, is that it gets harnessed on our behalf.It actually could really work for us if that need to win and the inability to see anything other than a win could get harnessed on behalf of the United States of America, where he's just not going to take no for an answer, NATO <i>is</i> going to have to pay more, the European countries.We are not going to be shouldering the burden.Hamas <i>is</i> going to have to release the hostages.You know, Trump is just really incapable of seeing himself failing, and when he's the sitting president acting on our behalf, I think it's also true for the country.And it actually did work well the first time around—not perfectly, but there were a lot of successes.And I'm really hoping he can repeat it second time around.
And that brings us to where we were, where we started, and you talked about how written off he was as he left Washington, Jan.21, 2021.And you've hinted in your last answer about my next question, which is how, from his personal perspective, is everybody sees him as an exile, as somebody whose political career is over.How does Donald Trump, the man, respond in that moment, when he's in Mar-a-Lago?
I don't think Trump saw it that way at all.I do not think Trump thought, “I'm in exile, and I'm the scourge of the nation that I was just president of weeks earlier.”I think Trump saw the people who love him and said, “That's the majority.I am beloved, except for the haters and losers who are out there saying their typically nasty things about me.”And I think that ability to deny what was in fact reality at that point, that his approval rating was like 30-something, is what allowed him to get back up.I don't know if Trump had seen exactly how devastated people felt in the country after that whether he could have done it, right?That sort of ability to be a little self-delusional works for Trump, and it's the reason he's now the president-elect.
We've talked to some people close to the campaign.And, as you know, there were other people running for the nomination.And some of them have pointed to the moment where things changed as the raid of Mar-a-Lago.Can you tell me what you saw when you heard that news and looking back on it, whether that might have been a turning point for him?
Yeah, I think it was.The lawfare in general was the biggest turning point.The lawfare was a catastrophic mistake by the Democrats.
Say what “lawfare” is for—just explain that.
Trying to criminalize a political battle, trying to go after one's political opponent with criminal charges, and on top of that, civil cases that could ruin a man.Trying to put him in jail was a bridge too far. …I know that there are going to be a lot of left-leaning Democrats who hate Trump watching this, saying, “But—but rule of law.But no one's above the law.”And I am here to tell you, even if that's true—and I don't happen to agree that he broke the law at all—but even if it's true, the electorate rejected it out of hand as too much.It made the Democrats look radical.It made the Democrats look like they were the ones who were anti-democratic.It undermined their core argument against Trump on Jan. 6.They shot themselves in the foot.And so, as the cases started unrolling, rolling on, the anger on the right and the middle, which is where most of my audience is, grew.And I saw it in my emails, in my comments, in the feedback I got from my audience, live on SiriusXM and elsewhere.And the raid kicked it all off.The raid caused people to feel genuinely rageful.We had never seen such a thing.The FBI raided the home of a former president?… The FBI staged a photo-op in which they placed the documents just so and took photos and then released those photos, as Merrick Garland was up there trying to tell us nothing had been manipulated, and we could totally trust them that this was not politicized.We didn't believe him.We still don't believe him.I am still angry about it, as somebody who is a lawyer and practiced law for 10 years.It was a before-and-after moment that we now cannot get back.Now we've crossed the Rubicon, and anything is possible.And if [California Sen.] Adam Schiff or [former U.S. Secretary of State] Hillary Clinton or [former President] Joe Biden winds up facing criminal charges under a Trump administration, I can tell you, there are very few Republican voters who will feel sorry for them.They brought it upon themselves.We had never done this before.Hillary Clinton, everyone chanted “Lock her up” in the Republican Party.Trump smiled and waved along with the crowd while they did it.Did he do it?No. As soon as he was elected, he said, “No, I'm not doing that.”That was rhetoric in the wake of the campaign and during the campaign.Only Joe Biden, only [former U.S. Attorney General] Merrick Garland and the Democrats, from [District Attorney] Fani Willis up to [District Attorney] Alvin Bragg and others thought this was an OK line to cross in the United States of America.We made it almost 250 years without doing this to a president.And let me tell you, it wasn't because no president had ever come close to the legal line.We understood, as a nation, we didn't want to start turning ourselves into a banana republic.And I don't know where this goes from here.But whatever happens, it's their fault.
So in our story of the comeback, these cases, all of these cases which you've talked about— the civil cases, the criminal cases are brought against him—is it him seizing it and standing on the courtroom steps or is he ironically, lucky, as far as his political comeback goes, to be in this situation?
Well, I think it was another situation in which, yes, Trump got lucky in having just the worst enemies who just behaved so badly, and they don't know how to read the country at all.It's amazing to me how they continue doing it.If I were, you know, if I were [then-Senate Majority Leader] Chuck Schumer, if I were [House Democratic Leader] Hakeem Jeffries, I would make it a point every night to watch something other than left-wing media, just bring it into your repertoire.You don't have to eliminate your left-wing sources, but just get a little right-wing ecosystem news in there so you understand the other half of the country, so you don't make catastrophic mistakes like this; so you understand this is going to hurt me more than it's going to help me.And it's certainly going to hurt the country.So Trump got lucky in having dumb opponents who didn't know how to read the country.But he also handled it right on brand.You know, the mug shot and leaning in, rather than being ashamed of it, immediately putting it out on mugs and T-shirts and making it almost cool, right, like kind of became cool to have the Trump mug shot on your T-shirt.He leaned in.And yes, every day during the Alvin Bragg trial in New York, coming out and saying what he wanted to say.And then, when he got gagged, bringing surrogate after surrogate there to say what Trump wanted said, it just, again, middle finger, wrecking ball, not part of them, part of us, helped tear it down, the things that aren't working for me.And that group, by the way, has now grown.That group, the “Tear it down; the system doesn't work for me,” is now no longer the more working-class voters who have been left behind by industrialization and so on.Now it's young people under the age of 30 who can't get a mortgage or a house or a job that allows them to take a couple of weeks off and a nice vacation, or feel like they can get married and have a kid because they can't pay the bills, because inflation is so high, and they can't go to the grocery store anymore.The group was growing, so Trump's defiance, his fighter nature, and his willingness to stare what the rest of us would consider extreme embarrassment in the face and say, “I’m fine.Let's go,” was an inspiration.
Trump Runs Against Harris
And by the time we get to the summer, it seems like they're pretty confident about where they are against Joe Biden.You had a great description already of the assassination attempt and what he got from that by saying, “Fight, fight, fight.”And then into the middle of that, the script is sort of torn up, and [then-Vice President] Kamala Harris arrives on the scene.How does he respond to that?Suddenly somebody else is getting a lot of the attention and a lot of the energy that is what he craves.
I'm sure it was frustrating for Trump.It was frustrating for all of us to watch just the sycophant media, which for about two glorious weeks really did its job in covering Joe Biden's mental infirmities after that debate, which they have been telling us for the better part of a year plus did not exist.But once they realized he was going to lose the Democrats, the White House, they got super honest super fast.And then she was anointed, and they went right back to their sycophant selves.You know, “She's BRAT.” OK.“She's joyful.It's not a cackle; it's joy.” OK.I mean, they really thought they could sell this to the American people.And the American people are not dumb.It's a cackle; it's not joy.It's off-putting.It's a weird tic that people don't enjoy, which is why her campaign clearly told her to stop doing that.“Whatever you have to do, stop laughing like that.Stop talking about duality.Stop saying ‘unburdened from what has been.’”They understood she had weird verbal tics that were off-putting to the average person.So it was frustrating that first month to see the media try to tell us that she was the second coming, or really just Barack Obama 2.0, which in Democrat circles is the second coming.Like, no she isn't.And we all knew it.And that is why even Democrats and Democrat-leaning pundits and columnists had been writing that Joe Biden should cut her from the ticket months earlier before his debate meltdown.They knew.So it's truly gaslighting.I know the word is overused, but it was true gaslighting.The things you know about Kamala Harris are not true.She's cool; she's BRAT; she's joyful; middle-class family.OK, we got it.So I'm sure it was frustrating for Trump to sit back there and watch the dishonest media do what it does, which is get onboard all together, in sync, like a school of salmon, to support the Democrat candidate, whoever it may be.
And the portrayal of Trump's response is also pretty harsh in the whole period going up to the election, of his comments about race, his general approach, is he swaying on the stage?There's a lot of things over that fall, where people were, you know, the portrayal is the campaign is in chaos or in crisis.How does he respond to that?
Trump, I thought, was very disciplined this time around.He was way more disciplined than he was the first time around and in 2020.So most of the time, he was on message.I think that's a credit to Susie Wiles, who is as straight as they come and kept him pretty much on the straight and narrow.The controversies that came late in 2024 on the campaign trail were mostly of the people around Trump, at Madison Square Garden, etc.But it wasn't Trump himself.I think there was a lot of goodwill around Trump after he almost got killed twice.Let's not forget, there were two assassination attempts.And after the first, there was a lot of talk about how we really shouldn't say all the false things about Trump; it kind of could endanger the man.And after the second, which was too close to Election Day, all that was still out the window, and we were back to, “Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, fascist, fascist, fascist,” which had the same effect as the raid, you know?It angered a large section of his base, and then there were those of us who had been more political for years, who were like, “OK, sure.He's Goebbels. Right. Anyhoo.”I mean, it just completely eliminated the power of those names and words.So anyway, I think Trump, I think he did fine.He was more disciplined.There was some controversy.It, in general, wasn't created by him.
Was there a power, too, in that, in the criminal charges, in the claim he's a fascist?And he says, “I am going to basically get revenge on your behalf.They're coming after me because they want to get to you.”What is that part of that message that he has?Does that resonate with voters?Is that part of what wins him the election?
Very much so, because that's not just made up.It's not just—I know Democrats will roll their eyes at that comment, like, “No, they're coming after you because you behaved badly.”But you have to understand the experience that Republican voters and right-of-center voters have been having over the four years of Joe Biden. …They don't want to see journalists arrested in FBI raids at 5:00 in the morning in their underwear because they were trying to get their hands on stolen merchandise, Ashley Biden's diary.7Hello!It's totally legal for a journalist to get stolen goods!The only thing that's illegal is if you orchestrate the theft.And the left understood this perfectly well when it was [former Alaska Gov.] Sarah Palin's emails that had been hacked.The <i>New York Times </i>published them all.They didn't do the hacking.They received the goods.“Let's do this thing.”They don't want to see journalists like Matt Taibbi suddenly get audited by the IRS when he's speaking out against government censorship.8They don't want to live in a censorship regime where they say, “I think COVID probably began in a lab as a result of an accident,” and before you know it, their Facebook account has been shut down.It had been too much.It's four years of a growing authoritarian approach to government in the land of the free.And so when Trump says that, like, “I'll get them.They are going to come after you, and I’m standing in the way,” we believe him.
8
The Washington Times: IRS worked overtime to probe Twitter Files journalist Matt Taibbi
Because it's personal for him.
It's personal for all of us.All of my mom friends, my mom friends in New York City are leftists.And bit by bit, person by person, I mean, three of the most ardent Biden supporters who canvassed for Biden four years ago have now been redpilled.They are to the right of me.I mean, they’ve got the hats on.They have been totally redpilled by the government overreaches around COVID and the transition.It's not all about Trump.I know the media and many on the left see everything through the prism of Trump, but a lot of what's happening right now that helps Trump is because of Democrats, including Joe Biden, and the policies we've been living with for four years now, and they see Trump as the antidote to these problems.
Has Trump Changed?
So you interview him in the fall of this year.
The fall of '23.
Of '23?
Yeah, a year ago.
A year ago.And was that your only interaction with him after he left office?Or had you seen him at all?
I had seen him just prior to that in July of '23 at a Turning Point event down in Florida, where it was just a glad-hand.You know, we said, “Hello.”It was fine. It was cordial.And I asked him then for the interview, and he said he would do it.
And when you interviewed him, what was he like at that point?Any different?
Well, different from when I had seen him in July, because now the nature of what we do is adversarial.So I could really like you, and I could be in your corner, and I could be preparing to vote for you, but if you're a politician, and you sit across from me, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to ask you some tough questions, because it's my job.Hello! More in the media should do that!Anyway, sorry.So it got a little awkward, because I gave him a couple of gimmes in the beginning, like “Biden's too old, right?”“Yeah, he's too old.”We did that.And as any good interview, it had an arc.You know, there was a crescendo and a decrescendo, and the crescendo was about the lawfare.Then I gave him a couple, you know, like some of it is obvious BS, but the one area in which even I did not think it was BS was, once Trump got that subpoena to return those documents down in Mar-a-Lago, he needed to return the documents.That's just the way the law works.And if you go back and look at that interview, I had him on that.I had him.And it was the one time he got out of Dodge and said he wasn't going to answer.So that was kind of fun, you know, as a journalist.Well, he didn't appreciate it, and it was a little tense after that.You could see in the interview he started to get a little bit more insulting, as he'll sometimes do in an interview.And when it was over, he told me MAGA was not going to like the interview.And I kind of shrugged my shoulders and said, “So be it.Thank you for sitting with me, Mr. President.”And we did OK.He kind of held his fire for a couple days, and maybe even a couple of weeks.And then I did an interview with Glenn Beck in which Glenn asked me whether President Trump was losing anything mentally, and I said, “He's great.He's doing fine.But there's no question he's lost a little off his fastball from 2016.”And then he let me have it.It was fine.You could argue I deserved it, and that's fine.We're in the arena.I can take it.
By that point, yeah, you knew who Trump was and that he's going to fight back.
Of course.
The other thing that's interesting, I mean, your career, you guys meet on Fox News.He's sort of famous back in 2015 for using cable news and calling in and using it as a way to get attention.And by the time you get to 2023, 2024, he's apparently realized podcasts are a way to reach people.You've moved into a different medium.How does he, as this former reality TV star, as a guy in his 70s, recognize the changing media environment and use that?
Well, I think Trump, for sure, is a media genius, but I don't know about new media genius.I mean, this is a younger man's game.But what we read in the papers is that Barron Trump and [then-Sen.] JD Vance and some others around his inner circle were the ones telling him, “You’ve got to do these podcasts,” the ones that he did late in the campaign, the ones that were more appealing to young male voters.And they were 100% right.That is where you go to find young male viewers/voters.So I think that may have come very close to home for Trump.But yeah, to your point, even back in '23, he sat with me for a lengthy podcast, and he knew what my numbers were.Somebody had told him, so he cared enough to ask.And he likes exposure, and you do reach a totally different audience on podcasts.I remember Ben Shapiro once telling me that, when he walks down the street, if he gets stopped by somebody who's over 65, he knows they know him from Fox News, and anybody under 65 could be Fox, but more than likely, the younger you get, it's podcasts.Even though now it's changed.I have a lot of older viewers who consume the podcasts and the YouTube in particular.Anyway, Trump was smart, because it's a different audience.Cable news is almost entirely seniors.And so if you want to cast a wider net, you should do podcasting and YouTube, because it's a totally different collection.
Did you think it was a mistake, at the time, for him to reach out so specifically to young men?And do you still feel the same way?
No, I thought it was a great move.I thought it was a brilliant decision.He went where his voters were.He went where he could develop new voters.Even before Joe Rogan, which, you know, there's like, in podcasting, there's Joe Rogan, and then there's the rest of us, even those of us who are doing really well.So it's a no-brainer to go on Joe Rogan if you get the invitation.But the other ones he was doing, like his Shawn Ryan interview, his Theo Von, it was hilarious.And they weren't talking politics for a lot of these.They were just talking.Trump talking to Theo Von about Theo's cocaine use was one of the funniest, most entertaining clips.Trump switched into interviewer mode.He was like, “Oh, what does it feel like?”Trump, this teetotaler, who doesn't drink, has never smoked, of course doesn't do drugs, he's like genuinely curious about what this feels like, and there's something charming about it, right?Like, he's searching in an area that people find really entertaining, especially young guys, who were already, I think, in a bromance with Trump because of a lot of things—his toughness, his ability to fight, his willingness to.But also, Trump is and represents a backlash to the messaging around men and what a man is and should be in a really profound way.… These young guys, including my friends' young Democrat sons, young liberal sons in New York City, redpilled, too.Why?Because they do not want to go to another Women's Month celebration, Pride Month celebration, Trans Month celebration, and self-flagellation every morning before class about how bad America is and how bad white men are.They're done!And so Trump—back to the middle finger—is their guy.Trump is unapologetically masculine; you could say toxic—I wouldn't say that—but just brash, strong, and, you know, he's got the tie, the suit coat.He's not wearing like the pants that are too short that show your naked ankles, and he doesn't have a man bun.He's not on a scooter.He's not eating kale.To the contrary: He's eating only McDonald's and chocolate and Diet Cokes.There's something old-school, old-school American male about him that I think really resonated with these young men.They just needed to get to know him a little bit better outside of the media filter that was so negative about him.And once they saw him with guys like the ones I mentioned, I think they—the bromance flourished.It blossomed.
This goes back to the question, too, the other side of it, to the question you asked him in the debate.Were you worried about alienating women, about that part of the campaign, about the things from Madison Square Garden?
I thought Madison Square Garden was too bro-tastic, and I said so the next day on my show.It was just too much.It was like guy after guy after guy after guy making really crude, negative comments.And I'm not a Kamala Harris fan, but about her personally that were offensive, and just some really graphic terms.And it was just, it was too much.It wasn't really even about the comedian for me.I mean, I'm Irish, so I'm unoffendable.But just abrasive—it was abrasive, you know.And I just thought, this is a mistake, because I know they're not winning the female vote, but why be intentionally alienating to it?Like, it would be great if you could peel off some of those women.So yeah, there was a little risk around that.I thought it was too much at one time at a point in the campaign that was important and that had a lot of visibility.But in general, I know a lot of Republican women—I mean, a lot of Republican women—and I think they have the same longing for that old-school American male.And I don't mean like the chauvinists of the 1950s who only see a woman as like a stay-at-home mom and never capable of anything outside of the home or we can only be secretaries, we can't be the lawyers, all that.I don't mean that.I just mean a masculine man, a man who wants to protect you, a man who will stand up for you, a man who will open the door for you, a man who will stand up to your child and say, “No,” as opposed to, “Well, we might want to rethink our choices.”I mean, a strong American, red-blooded male.I think there are a lot of young women and old who still find that very desirable.And when you see it, especially as a young woman who's on college campuses these days—I've talked to a lot of them—when you see it.It's like, “Aha.What is this thing?”It's like the Marlboro Man of today.And Trump benefited from that.
Kelly’s Endorsement of Trump
You go out at the very end of the campaign and express your support for him.Do you reach out to them?Do they reach out to you?Was that a hard decision?
They reached out to me.And it was a little hard, not because I wasn't supporting Trump—I had already said so on my show—but because it was a line crossed that I had never done as a journalist.And it was just sort of the culmination of my new career, where I am still a journalist, but I'm also a pundit now and a podcaster who offers her opinion a lot more than, certainly, I ever did when I was just a straight journalist or even on the prime time at Fox.But I had been edging on it for quite some time.I mean, telling people who I was going to vote for, I had never done that either.And the thing that made me do that was Biden's changes to Title IX, what a disgrace they were to women's rights and to the due process rights of young men on college campuses.9And it was that day that I said openly, “I'm voting for Donald Trump.”And from that point forward, was it such a big bridge to cross to then say, “And I think you should vote for him, too, and here's why,” right?So I had talked about it with my husband quite a bit, like, “Should I do this?What do you think?”And I just realized I'm in my own lane now.We're reinventing things, those of us who are in this digital lane.And I don't have to follow anybody else's rules anymore.I'll put my interviews, especially of these politicians, up against anyone's in the business.But when it comes to my opinion and my advocacy for what I think is right, I’m free now.And so I really felt a calling.I genuinely felt a calling to do it.And so I went there that night.It was actually kind of funny, because I was supposed to speak before he spoke, but then they told me they were running late, and instead he was going to call me up.And all I could think was, I don't know what that means.I was like, have I just been—have I been bumped, and they just, they don't have the heart to tell me?And then, a couple times during his remarks, he referenced me: “Isn't that true, Megyn?”And I was like, do they mean he's going to call me out instead of calling me up?This is so humiliating.I announced on my show that I was going to be here; I was going to speak.I brought my family.I thought my kids might find this cool.And now I am just embarrassed.All my media brethren are out there, and they're going to be like, “Hahaha.”So I was relieved when he said, “Come on up here.”And at that point, I don't even know what I said.I was relieved that I hadn't been humiliated, and I spoke from the heart.And when it was over, I felt exhilarated.I felt exhilarated that I was able to say exactly what I wanted to say, at the exact moment it needed to be said, in front of the exact crowd that needed to hear it.That's a very special, unique feeling.
So this brings us back to where we started, which was election night.And we talked about how sort of remarkable it was, this comeback that he had.When you look back now at him, as he's coming into office—I think the film is going to air the day after inauguration—what does it mean?I mean, I'll make the question that broad.What does it mean that Donald Trump is coming in with the second term at this moment?
You know the whole “norms and institutions” cry from his first four years?That's the new, “Listen to the experts.”We're done.Norms and institutions are a thing of the past.The wrecking ball is back.And this time, he and his supporters mean business.Things are going to get wrecked because they need to be.We cannot have a DOJ and FBI that more than half the country distrusts and see as politicized against them.The rule of law will fall.Absolute, abject reform must happen at those agencies.Putting Bobby Kennedy atop HHS is the greatest middle finger in American politics.It's so beautiful.Putting Jay Bhattacharya at the head of NIH, who they censored, who, you know—this isn't speculation—[former Director of National Institutes of Health] Francis Collins and [former Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases] Anthony Fauci openly emailed to each other.10We know it from the House report and the release of the emails, said, “We've got to get him.We've got to tell people that he's a fringe doctor, offering fringe opinions,” when he said, “Maybe we should do focused protection, keeping the elderly and most vulnerable out of the public sphere, but let the kids go to school, and the young, robust adults be out in public.”That's what Jay Bhattacharya's sin was, Stanford professor, Martin Kulldorff.These are Harvard, Stanford.Fauci, Collins unleashed the Howitzers on them.And now, putting him in charge of the organization that did that, all of this is—we're done.We're going to shake things up for real.And we know it's bureaucratic, and it's going to be really hard, and you're going to fight back, and you're not going to like it, and the bureaucrats think that they have forever jobs that can never be messed with.Guess again.At least this time, we're going to go down fighting.We're going to go down swinging.The fighter will be saying, “Fight.”He's going to put Elon [Musk] and Vivek [Ramaswamy] in there to try to find, yes, waste, fraud and abuse, but also just government bulk that doesn't need to be there.People who are paying their salaries off of our tax dollars and doing nothing—they just want to feel important in Washington, DC.Why are we funding them?Why are we sending billions upon billions to Ukraine at this point when we know what's happened over there?It's sad, but the war is lost.We've got to cut the losses and stop the bleeding.And that money needs to stay here domestically.That's why Tulsi is there.That's why someone like a Hegseth is going to be there.That's why Trump is there.That's why JD is there.Things are going to change, and I think they're going to change a lot.And I think, in a year into Trump's presidency, he's going to have high approval ratings, and he's going to won over not the left, who can't stand him, and they can't see him clearly, but those middle-of-the-road voters who just thought, I don't like his behavior.He seems like he doesn't have the character of a man I want in the presidency.Those people are going to say, “You know what?Real change came, and I like it.”
10
So my last question.On his life journey, because we'll have traced him over his life, why is that different?Why is he different now than he was in the first term?What is it about Donald Trump, the president, that's different this time?
Well, I don't think we're getting Mr. Rogers, so prepare yourself.It's not like he's had some bump on the head and emerged as somebody super kind and gentle.That's not Trump.But I do think, having spent a fair amount of time with him over the past year here and there, I do think he is a little more reflective.I think he's a little wiser.I think he would love for him to create a legacy for himself that is a bit more—seen as a bit more benevolent and unifying even, and beloved.He would love it if he could do that.And let's not forget.You know, this is another bone for Democrats to chew on, who are feeling blue about his win.Trump's basically a Democrat.He lived his life as a Democrat.One of my questions for him at those early debates in '15 was, “When did you become a Republican?”And then he governed as a moderate.His rhetoric is not moderate, but his policies are.The thing that really scares the left is abortion.What's going to happen?OK, he's not going to do anything on abortion.There will be no federal abortion ban.There will be no federal abortion ban, period.He will govern as a moderate.He will do things like he did in the first term, like this anti-sex trafficking act and possibly criminal justice reform and tax policies that lead to the greatest surge in minority job growth and real income that we've seen in decades.All of this is hopeful, exciting, promising news that could come as an elixir to the people who are upset about this, if only they will be open-minded to it and allow it to filter into their lives.You can fight the guy on the things you want to fight him on.You should.But the days of just demonizing him as Hitler, as a—you know, the resistance, I think that needs to end.Fight, do your thing.That's America.Great.You shouldn't give up your principles because this guy won.But just stop with the over-the-top rhetoric, the lawfare, the extraordinary measures, the impeachments, to try to take down the duly elected president, because I think Trump comes to this open and willing to please even his enemies.
Latest Interviews
Latest Interviews
Policies
Teacher Center
Jon and Jo Ann Hagler on behalf of the Jon L. Hagler Foundation
Koo and Patricia Yuen
FRONTLINE is a registered trademark of WGBH Educational Foundation. Web Site Copyright ©1995-2025 WGBH Educational Foundation. PBS is a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization.
Funding for FRONTLINE is provided through the support of PBS viewers and by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Additional funding is provided by the Abrams Foundation; Park Foundation; the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation; and the FRONTLINE Journalism Fund with major support from Jon and Jo Ann Hagler on behalf of the Jon L. Hagler Foundation, and additional support from Koo and Patricia Yuen. FRONTLINE is a registered trademark of WGBH Educational Foundation. Web Site Copyright ©1995-2025 WGBH Educational Foundation. PBS is a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization.
