The FRONTLINE Interviews
Noah Bierman
Los Angeles Times
Noah Bierman is a staff writer at the Los Angeles Times in their Washington, D.C. bureau. He previously reported on politics for The Boston Globe and the Miami Herald.
The following interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on August 8, 2024. It has been edited for clarity and length.
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Harris as a Rising Star
What was [Kamala Harris’] reputation when you first heard of her?
I think she was thought of as a big, up and coming politician who had won statewide office in the biggest state.At the time, at home her reputation was of somebody who was pretty cautious politically, right?She was attorney general, but she wasn’t really weighing in on a lot of the big issues that attorney generals can weigh in on.You know, she chose to define some of the job narrowly, which is a theme that would emerge later in her career, trying to make sure she didn’t get ahead of her skis, as politicians like to say.Or as others like to say, it was somebody who didn’t want to do anything before they figured out where the political winds were blowing.
Do you have a sense of where that caution comes from?
I think there are a number of probable factors.You know, first of all, you can never forget she’s a Black woman in politics.So, one of the ways that she has thrived is by being probably a little bit more cautious than a lot of her white male counterparts have been.I think that she has also had some experiences that have made her more cautious.
I’ve been thinking about the Espinoza sort of affair basically because, you know, she had had this very firm position against the death penalty.And to her, that was part of her personal persona.And I think she became really surprised about how that was interpreted when her timing was off.You know, she went ahead and said she wasn’t seeking the death penalty before the funeral.And there she is, at odds with Dianne Feinstein, somebody in California who you do not want to be at odds with.As much as earlier in her career she learned from Willie Brown— somebody you definitely want to learn from—you don’t want to be on the other side of Dianne Feinstein in California politics.
And I think that has a real chill in how she went about things and saw things and basically thought, “Okay, I might feel this way but I’ve got to think about how it is going to be perceived by others, what the implications are going to be later.”
And that’s sort of a reputation that she would get throughout her career as somebody who’s calculating or cautious.Is that the way to describe her as a politician in those years?
I think that’s right.There are definitely exceptions.But the caution, the calculation continues with her all the way into recent times, really.…
Kamala Harris Is Often the First
From the time she decides to be a prosecutor, to be a DA, to be attorney general, she’s often, certainly the first Black woman in the room, sometimes she may be the only woman in the room.Sometimes she may be the only Black person or person of color in the room.How does that shape her as a politician to be in environments like that?
You know, she often says, “I want to be the first, but I don’t want to be the last.” And when you talk to people around her, they’re constantly reminded of that.And that puts an immense amount of pressure on her and probably has something to do with her caution and her tentativeness in public because, yes, she’s an ambitious politician.A lot of politicians are.But they don’t necessarily feel that weight, that so much is on them.
And you’ve written about that cautiousness, that somebody like a John McCain might be able to interact with the press in a different way.What do you mean by that?
Yeah.I mean a lot of male politicians who are sarcastic and cutting in public, people are like, “Ah, that’s John McCain.He’ll rib you.” That’s sort of her personality behind the scenes, but it would probably come off different or at least she probably believes it would come off different for a Black woman to be sarcastic and cutting and cursing in public.I mean all politicians are careful that way, for sure.But there is this extra layer.And the few times when you see that side of her, she really has gotten pilloried for it.I mean, again, going back … the interview with Lester Holt is so pivotal for so many reasons.And one of them is that she let that side of herself out, that sarcastic side.She said, “Yeah.I haven’t been to Europe either,” and she laughs.
In her mind, that’s actually closer to her sort of more authentic personality than a lot of her public statements are.And what happens?It comes back to completely backfire.
What is she like?Help me understand that, the dichotomy between what she is like in private.It’s written that she’s profane.And she’s a sort of different character than we might see.
Yeah, I mean she can be pretty funny and she can be pretty loose.And a lot of people who interact with her, and I’ve interacted with her some.I can’t really reveal a lot of the off-the-record interactions I’ve had with her.But I will say that she comes across as just a more relaxed person, often, and a little bit more cutting than you would expect from her public persona—in a playful way.It’s not like she’s mean.But she just, like a lot of us, she will have more of an acerbic wit, I think, than she shows in public.
Harris’ Handling of the Mortgage Crisis as Attorney General
For her national profile, one of the things that the campaign points to in the attorney general years is the mortgage case.How important was that for Kamala Harris?
Well, it’s important for a number of reasons.One, it’s a really big exception to the sort of anti-risk-taking reputation that she has.And she needs a few things like that on her résumé when she runs for Senate and eventually runs for president—to say, “Look, I have taken chances that have paid off.” And in this case, it’s interesting because she is going against the Obama administration.They are putting a fair amount of pressure on her because it’s a big deal for them.This is one of the major things, the biggest crisis, really, that [then-President Barack] Obama is confronting when he first comes into office, is this mortgage crisis.
And this is one of the major ways that he is showing a response to it, which is this coordinated, multistate effort to get billions of dollars that they believe will get into the hands of some of the consumers who have been essentially robbed during the mortgage crisis.And she goes to Washington, she’s pretty new to her job, and she says, “This isn’t enough.I’m not going to take it.” And she doesn’t show up to an afternoon meeting when they are supposed to be discussing this thing.So, she is taking a risk.You know, it’s a calculated risk.She has leverage.She is the biggest state in the country.She is the state with the most claimants in the lawsuits.There is the most money at stake.And she makes the calculation that she might get $2 or $3 billion for her state but divided in a state of 39 million people, how much is that really going to be when you look at compensating people.So, she does that.
The other important thing it does for her politically is, she forges a lot of relationships, including with President [Joe] Biden’s son, Beau [Biden], who backs her there.And she’s talked quite a bit about how that was the basis of her relationship with President Biden, was that she had been in the trenches with his son who he talks about so often as his own inspiration.So, it’s very meaningful in that sense.And the other thing is that it works.It shows that the risk can pay off both for her personally and politically but also for her state because she ends up getting ten or 20 times the amount that she might have otherwise gotten.
Hard to Place Harris on the Ideological Spectrum
Let me go back for a second … when she was running for DA and she was running for attorney general, the question will keep coming up, who is she?Is she a progressive?Is she tough on crime?Is she soft on crime?I mean, who is the Kamala Harris who is running for these prosecutorial positions, and why is she that person?
Yeah.I mean, she’s running when she runs for DA from the right.And you know, the other confusing thing about this is that it’s the Bay Area.So, what’s considered progressive and what’s considered centrist is way different than the rest of the country.You know, Dianne Feinstein is considered one of the more conservative people at that point in California and Bay Area politics.But nationally she is not really known as a conservative person, right?So, a lot of this is relative.But yeah, she’s coming into this basically as a prosecutor’s prosecutor, right?She’s somebody who has been in the trenches.She’s prosecuted real crimes, including sex crimes, stuff that people are very upset with.
But you know, she realizes, too, she’s got to temper that somewhat because she is in a place of liberalism and where the views are changing on how tough prosecutors should be.So, she’s a little bit navigating this back and forth.When she is attorney general, she makes a big deal of the fact that she’s got officer sensitivity training.She’s also got an intervention program that will allow first time offenders not to have a felony on their record if they are able to complete a program.
Yet, at the same time, she wants to go after truancy by having the ability to prosecute parents, which comes back later to haunt her.And again, even though she gave herself that ability, she makes clear, “But I never used it.” And that’s the sort of having it both ways that a lot of politicians like to have, but it’s part of the navigating that she’s tried to do.
It’s interesting, the question of like, is she having it both ways.Because it seems like her defenders, what they would say is, she’s looking at data and she’s pragmatic and the labels don’t fit.Do you think that’s right?
I think she would say that she’s pragmatic and looking at data.You know, and I think she is also trying to show that a certain kind of progressivism can work with law enforcement.You know, this is the way we can sort of bridge the idea of public safety with public good.And it’s a hard thing that everybody has struggled with, especially the last few years.And she’s pretty much grappled with it her whole career.And you know I think it’s to say that she’s definitely found an answer on this, right?She is still struggling with it, right?You know, if I may point out, she gets into the Biden administration and a lot of people expect she is going to tackle it there because of her extensive experience and because Biden is running in the wake of George Floyd, very much promising that he’s going to try and tackle some of these issues.And she doesn’t step up.You know, that’s one of these pieces where people say maybe she’s a little too cautious.But it’s also, she knows how hard it is.
Harris’ Political Ambition
One thing we haven’t been able to figure out is when her political ambitions for really high office beyond prosecutor begin.Do you have any sense of that?
So, yeah, I mean I think your eyes get bigger when you win statewide office in California.And remember, her first election as attorney general was such a nail biter.So, she’s not really sure she is going to even make it to statewide office.You know, she sort of talks about that time in her memoir of being at her election night party, seeing the race called by the <i>San Francisco Chronicle</i> for her opponent and believing she’s lost.And then it gets uncalled and she’s on a plane to New York for Thanksgiving plans, and just about to hop on the plane when she finds out, oh, no, she won.
So, at this point she’s really focused on, okay, what are my next steps along this ladder.But the ladder just keeps moving and she just keeps getting bigger and bigger.And all these other people see potential in her, whether or not she sees it in herself.And I’m not saying she doesn’t.But it wouldn’t necessarily matter.People are just excited by her, by her political biography.And so, she is just always seen in this light.Again, you look back to the fact that Obama sort of puts her on the national radar pretty early.
And, you know, there was always this sort of inevitable sense about her.Even if people were disappointed in the job she did in whatever office, there was always an inevitable sense that she was moving on, probably, to the next thing.
It’s that phrase, which I don't know that she likes, but “the next Obama,” that’s attached to her.
Yeah.That phrase gets attached to her.And as I mentioned before, I’m not sure it’s really right because there is a lot of difference between the two.Yes, they’re both mixed race and they’re both barrier breakers in their own right.But their political styles are so different.You know, he comes at it, again, as somebody who is really introspective.He’s spent time as a community organizer.He’s been a writer.You know, his political memoir was viewed by a lot of people, almost more as a piece of writing than a typical political book.
She’s coming at this as a prosecutor, you know, sort of working her way up in the milieu and it’s totally different.Her speaking style isn’t honed the same way.She’s not somebody who’s out there primarily talking about legislation and that sort of policy.She’s out there talking about very specific cases and very specific policies that have to do with criminal justice and civil law and consumer law and things like that.So, it’s really a different sphere.
And then, you know, the gifts, the relative gifts and speaking are so different.Obama is this once-in-a-generation political orator.She has not had that reputation.She does well in certain settings.But the kind of gifts that Obama has for these very lofty speeches about like what is the American idea and this, you know, where he really seeks to get truly profound about it, is probably when she gets into the most trouble, when she tries to get really profound, is when she ends up getting these viral videos of her made for being a word salad, because it just doesn’t come as naturally to her, that sort of soaring style of rhetoric.
That’s interesting.And that makes sense.Because he, I mean he was a constitutional law professor, but he did think big and that is what he was doing.And she was a lawyer making individual cases on very specific evidence and individual decisions.And that shapes her.
Yeah.I think that is right.I sometimes think about, like there are sort of two versions of her persona and speaking style.There’s the prosecutor Kamala Harris and there is the politician Kamala Harris.And you can see, she’s been much more successful and comfortable in the prosecutor Kamala Harris mode dating to her time in the Senate, when she is grilling Trump administration officials.That’s what she is most known for.She is not known for legislation that some politicians might be known for.
And again, you know, when she is playing offense and she is able to ask the questions and she is able to pin people down, that’s when she is at her best.When she is trying to play defense, making the case for herself or trying to show why she hasn’t done something or hasn’t taken a position, that’s when she’s ended up getting in the most trouble.
Harris in the U.S. Senate
I mean that raises the question of this, there’s all these moments in her life that feel profound.And one of them in election night of 2016 when Barack Obama beats Hilary Clinton and she wins the Senate.I’m sorry.When Donald Trump beats Hillary Clinton and she wins the Senate.I mean, how important was that night and the environment she was going to become a United States Senator in?
Yeah.I mean she has to rip up her speech, for one, because she’s not expecting that she’s coming in, you know, with Trump here.She’s expecting a totally different scenario where there is the first woman president, and the glass ceiling is broken.Then all of a sudden, like so many Democrats, it’s this rush of panic and anxiety and a wondering like, okay, how do we navigate this environment?And so she does draft a new speech that night and it’s all about fighting.And you know, she really digs in in that moment and her Senate career really becomes about fighting.… So, you’ve got these huge fights between the Trump administration and California, primarily over the environment and immigration.But it filters into a number of things.And here is somebody who’s been an attorney general.And the attorney generals in blue states are really leading a lot of these fights.So, she speaks their language, and she is looking at the same things they’re looking at.And she’s really there as this fighter.And the second two years of what will eventually only be four years she serves in the Senate, she’ll really be running for president at that point.
So, so much of her Senate career is really devoted to this prosecutorial, political kind of version of herself.Not so much the legislating.You know, and that will come back when she’s vice president because she doesn’t have very much experience legislating in the Senate.She doesn’t have very many relationships.And she is serving for Biden, who’s been there for four decades and loves that old back-slapping way of the Senate and wants to handle it himself.So, traditionally vice presidents get a big role in negotiating with Congress.She doesn’t end up getting much of a role there and it really diminishes her ability to be as consequential in the White House.
I mean those two years in the Senate, where she is a freshman senator.She’s on the Judiciary Committee but she is all the way at the end of the podium.And yet, you know, her star rises dramatically.You know, how and why?
Yeah.I mean.So, these Senate hearings are so similar to a cross-examination in a court, and she has the experience.So, you know, a good prosecutor never asks a question that they don’t know the answer to.And so, she takes that approach, and she devises these quick but sort of thought-out questions she’s going to ask in succession in hopes of creating basically a viral moment with these Trump administration officials, or in the case of Justice Kavanaugh, his confirmation hearing, when she really pins him down on the issue of abortion.And she says, “You know, what area of the law are men’s bodies the subject of government intervention?” And he can’t answer.And that becomes probably the biggest viral moment for her in her Senate career and really important in her run for president and justification for her run for president.
Is that the basis for all of the talk of—I don’t mean just that moment but those moments— the basis for all of the talk of her as a possible presidential contender?
I think those moments are what really excite base Democrats and donors, that this is a person who can take the case to Trump, you know.And this is a person who can get some of these really big, rallying issues.And one of them happens to be abortion.And this is before the fall of Roe.But she knows already that abortion is going to be this motivating issue for Democrats because it has been already for a while.But it does seem to be heating up even more so with the change in the [Supreme] Court.And so, yeah, she’s galvanizing people.She’s taking the fight to Trump, if not directly, through his nominees and through his cabinet officials.
And this is what Democrats want at this point.They really want a fight.They really are angry and frustrated and feel they don’t have ways to get at the president.And here she is, somebody who has some way to get at the president.And it gets her constant replays on people’s social media because they are like, “Look, look, she nailed him.” And that’s what people want at that point, especially in the Democratic base.
Do you think she liked being a Senator?Was that a natural fit for her?
I don’t.I don’t think she loved being a Senator.It’s such a different environment from running your own office.In her case, she ran prosecutorial offices.But she was an executive and she was running things.And a lot of people who come to the Senate, even if they’ve had, you know, really big careers, have trouble adjusting to coming into the Senate where they still use the seniority system.So, you still really don’t have that much clout as a new senator.And you don’t have the ability to really make things happen on your own.And that’s frustrating to a lot of people, especially in the modern Congress where nothing is really getting done.
And she is only the second Black woman to serve as United States senator.What is that like for her to go into that institution?
Yeah.I mean that’s what’s so interesting, too, because the Senate is so tradition-bound, you know, even more so than most other American institutions.And so, you go around, and you look at all the busts when you go around the chamber.They are all there.There are these stone busts, and you don’t see any women.You don’t see any Black people.And here you are walking around in this and your colleagues, for the most part, are mostly looking a lot more like those busts than they are looking like you.And you feel that both the sense of like, how did all this happen?You know, how did we get here?But also, that pressure that she’s felt throughout her life that she’s got to succeed because, as she has said, many, many times that her mother told her, you know, “You might be the first, but you don’t want to be the last.”
Harris’ 2019 Run for President
So, help me.I liked your analogy of the ladder, that is constantly going up and she is sort of going up along with it.Help me understand why she decides to run for president after only two years in the Senate.
I think so many Democrats at that point are making the calculation that this is a really good time.I’m the right person for this time.You know, there’s a ton of energy on the left to find somebody who could beat Trump because this is, you know, many Democrats are already viewing him as what they continue to say, of being an existential threat to the country.And so, there is just this energy.And you know, there is a big field, but she knows she is going to be able to come in as a major player in this big field.She’s got the fundraising base from California.She’s got the national stature where she is able to raise money and get excitement from some of these viral moments she’s created in the committee hearings.
And she basically has an opening that she may not get again.You know, she’s young but these things, the times aren’t always right for you to run.So, if you’re somebody who believes you can be president, you don’t want to miss that window.
And describe the energy as the campaign begins and she holds a rally in Oakland.How does it start?
Yeah.I mean, it’s become almost an axiom that her best day was her first day in the campaign, because it starts amazing.You know, she’s got all these people in Oakland, and you know, this is this period of where the left is feeling really energized and there is a lot of energy around racial justice.And here she is, in a city that is identified as one of the cradles of Black America, Oakland.And she’s from there.And she has the roots there, the authenticity.And people are just going wild.They are seeing this opportunity.Here is somebody who can really rally the party and bring everybody together.So, there is that excitement.She’s energized.
The other moment that stands out besides the Oakland moment is the debate moment where she confronts Joe Biden.Can you help me understand why that was important and what that revealed about Kamala Harris?
Yeah.That is a huge moment.So, one is, she has this relationship with Biden through Beau that Biden has said is pretty personal and pretty important to him.And he comes from the time when these relationships—I mean he’s not naïve to politics but to him the relationships are the basis of politics.And he doesn’t see this coming.Her campaign is not doing well at this point.And he is starting to be seen as the frontrunner.
But there are all these questions about, you know, why has he spoken so warmly of some of these segregationist Senators he worked with early in his career?Why when he is a young politician is he such a vocal opponent of federally-mandated busing that is really one of the major impetuses at that point in the Civil Rights movement.And so, she has this opening.Her campaign is really struggling.And again, not only was she bused as a child, but it’s also right in her wheelhouse because her role models are not traditional politicians.Her role models are Thurgood Marshall.These are people who used the courts to advance Civil Rights.And what was one of the big ways that the courts were used in the Civil Rights era was busing.
So, to her, this actually is a very personal issue.And it’s a political opening and she uses it.And not only does she use it, but her campaign anticipates the reaction.They have the T-shirts already pressed and they are ready to go, to use this to restart her campaign.All of that only makes the wound even worse for Biden because it’s a planned, surprise attack on him from somebody who he thinks is an ally.And it really carries reverberations throughout their relationship.I mean, a lot of people were surprised when he picks her as vice president because of that.A lot of the people around Biden are suspicious of her when she is vice president because of that.
And so, you know, this is a wound that sort of becomes one of these defining moments in their relationship and it’s not a good one.
People have told us that San Francisco, with mostly Democrats, is sometimes described as a knife fight in a telephone booth.And I was thinking of that analogy at this moment with, here she is with other Democrats and she sort of takes out the knife to him.I mean, what does it reveal about her?
So, one of the big issues she has in the campaign is she doesn’t know which lane to choose among all these Democrats.It’s very hard for her to differentiate herself.She’s pivoting a little bit to the left when it comes to issues like healthcare, then pivoting back.She’s pivoting a little bit on immigration to the left and trying to pivot back.She can’t quite figure out where she is in this spectrum of Democrats.And here she finds a way to go against who is basically the frontrunner in this point in the race, with a genuine personal, not so much policy but a personal difference she can show that sets her apart from him and that takes him down a notch.
Now a lot of Democrats are very upset by this.They feel like, okay, it’s one thing to go after somebody for policy.But to go after what’s basically his integrity and to say, you know, this man who was a vice president to America’s first Black president has these racially uncomfortable positions and opinions in history.That’s really upsetting to a lot of Democrats who felt like, “No, no, no, the main target here has to be Trump.We can’t be going after each other in these kind of personal terms.”
So, what happens to her campaign?Why does it end before a simple vote is cast?
Well, you know, for all the excitement she has, it starts to fizzle because she fundamentally does have trouble defining herself.She’s not an ideological person.And in a primary campaign, people want to know what your ideology is because you’re choosing among Democrats.So, you know, everybody knows Bernie Sanders stands here.Elizabeth Warren stands here.Biden stands here.Pete Buttigieg stands here.Where is she?And they don’t know.And she doesn’t do a good job of defining that and she seems to be unsure of where she is.And it creates this sense that she’s not really comfortable in this role, maybe not quite ready for this role.
And she starts to lose support.And then there is infighting within her campaign.You know, one of her longstanding issues as a manager is she does have trouble holding on to staff and the atmosphere has been described by some as really, really difficult.So, she starts having these internal squabbles in the campaign at the same time as her fundamental issue of defining herself is not really set.And you put those together and it’s just not going to work.
And then California is coming up and you don’t want to run the risk politically of doing really poorly in your home state because it just sets a bad precedent if you intend to run again, which at this point, you certainly don’t want to close that off if you want to take this experience and see, okay, maybe next time I’ll do better.Biden, after all, you know, ran twice before he finally got the nomination.
Harris Selected as Biden’s Running Mate
Why does she become the vice-presidential nominee?
So, Biden sets up a parameter that he’s going to choose a female nominee because there’s a lot of lingering frustration that Hillary Clinton wasn’t able to break the glass ceiling in the party.There’s a lot of Democrats, which is an increasingly female party, who are very upset with Trump, who they feel is a misogynist.And there is just a lot of desire within the party, if they are going to pick a white man, to at least balance the ticket by having somebody who expands the reach and who shows that the party’s values are still toward increasing inclusion, right?
So, he makes this promise, which some criticize by the way, because they say, well now it looks like that person is picked only because of their gender.But he makes that and it’s a political calculation for him.And then, in the midst of weighing all these candidates who include people like Amy Klobuchar, Elizabeth Warren, a lot of other Democrats who have been in the primary, who’ve been pretty popular, bring their own type of constituency, the country erupts over George Floyd.And you’ve got a lot of people who say, “Wait a minute.Racial justice has to be at the top of the agenda for the party now.” This is a very big moment.You had Trump coming out with the Bible.Americans are very upset on this issue, especially the grassroots of the Democratic Party.So it becomes increasingly clear that he is looking towards picking a Black woman.And he needs to find somebody, though, who is also going to fit his governing style, who is going to work well with him.
And so, he is looking at a lot of different people and they’re not all Black women at this point, but that is one of the factors he’s considering.And one of the big things is, can he get over the wounds from the debate?But in a way, you can see that as an advantage for Harris.Because, one of the themes of Biden’s campaign is that America needs to mend its wounds.America can’t be caught up in grievances.And so, he is able to reach across to somebody who’s biggest political moment in the campaign was a direct hit on him.
And he chooses her and says, “Look.We can get over this.We’ve worked well together, you know, the same way I’m going to work well with Republicans in the Senate who supported my opponent, Donald Trump.I’m going to work together with my opponent in this primary.” So, there is this sense of that team of rivals that I think he is trying to bring at the same time.
And there is also a sense that look, she has been through a lot of the steps.She’s been in local office.She’s been in statewide office.She’s been in the Senate.She has the diversity of experience.Nobody is going to have more experience than Biden in government, but she is going to have different experience.And that’s another way he is balancing the ticket.
I mean we know that it’s been reported that Jill Biden was sort of skeptical about this.Do we know if there was an explicit, sit down, like, “You have to be 100 percent loyal if you are going to be the vice president.” Because you see that over her time, up until he pulls out.
Whether there is that explicit conversation or not, she knows it.She knows very clearly that if she is going to be on Team Biden, she’s going to be on Team Biden.And by the way, one of the ways that they get over this riff that they have during the campaign is she doesn’t bring any of her campaign [staff] with her, either to the vice presidential campaign or the vice presidential office.She has a couple of people who have been long-time aides.But for the most part, she is not bringing her own people on with her.And that is a signal that she is sending that, you know, I’m on Biden’s team now.These are going to be Biden’s people that I’m going to be working with.
And it becomes a real handicap when she becomes vice president.She doesn’t have this roster of loyalists who can advise her, where Biden does.Biden has people who have been with him for decades.She doesn’t have those people around her.
Adjusting to the Role of Vice President
How much of a difficult fit was the vice presidency for Kamala Harris as leader, as a person?
So, she comes in, in a really interesting time.First thing you have to know is there is incredible excitement for her coming in as vice president.It’s probably unprecedented in the history of vice presidents because, you know, there’s a lot of famous expressions about the vice president, most of them having to do with their, the equivalent of a bucket of some sort of excrement.And she comes into this as this trailblazer.There’s tons of excitement about her.But that is also pressure, right, because people are paying attention to everything she does.
So, on the one hand you’ve got pressure.On the other hand, you’ve got a staff which is almost entirely new to you during COVID.You’re not going to meet them.The other thing is, you’re coming in and even though there is a lot of talk that Biden really respects the role of the vice presidency because he’s had it, you’re also coming in, in a rare position for a modern vice president because most of them have gotten their clout by virtue of the fact that they have more government experience than the person they are serving.
You know, Biden was the classic model.He had been in the Senate for decades and he’s helping Obama who’s only served a short time in the Senate and hasn’t had a lot of government experience.So, he’s this wise old counsel, right?She’s coming in, as one Biden and Harris ally said to me, you know, “Thomas Jefferson doesn’t have as much experience as Biden in that role.” And so, she’s having to figure out, okay, what gaps can I fill.“I’m not going to be able to tell him how to negotiate with the Senate.I’m not going to be able to tell him how to meet with a foreign leader.” And he’s been vice president.He’s coming in with more experience than maybe anybody since George H.W.Bush, who had had a variety of government jobs.
Harris Takes On the Root Causes of Migration
The thing that everybody talks about in the vice presidency is she gets assigned or she ends up taking the roots of the migration crisis.Can you help me understand that, how she ends up with that assignment and whether she was concerned about it from the beginning?
Yeah.So, you have to go back and remember that immigration basically since Trump comes along, probably before, has been one of the animating issues in Republican politics.And as soon as Biden comes in, he’s reversing all these Trump policies.COVID is starting to wind down, and they’re starting to get a huge increase in arrests at the border.And Republicans are making this the number one issue.And they are labeling it a crisis and the White House is refusing to acknowledge that it’s a crisis or use any word that comes close to crisis.
But they need to show that they are doing something about it, right?And they want to show some response.But they don’t want to be seen as hardliners because they’ve campaigned upon the whole idea that Trump is this hardliner and that’s the wrong way to go.So, they focus in on this idea that the reason that people are coming is because the conditions in their own countries are really tough.You know, there’s bad economies.There’s a lack of security.There’s corrupt governments.There are all these problems that compel people to leave their homes and make what’s a very risky journey.And a lot of the people are coming from Central America.
And this is a strategy that began when Obama had trouble with immigration, and he assigned it to Biden.And Biden took this and really took it with gusto because he loved foreign affairs, and he really thought it was nice to have his own portfolio where he could call all these leaders of Central America and go down there whenever he wants.But Biden did this at the end of the term.Most people didn’t think he was running for anything else.And guess what?I mean, they can point to some things that he did but they still had the same problem.So, it’s not really a wholesale solution.It might be a good thing to do but it’s not necessarily something that’s going to curb migration, which they say is the goal.
So, he says, “Look.You know, you’ve been wanting something to do here.Why don’t you take my old job?” She doesn’t see it this way, right?Because right away Republicans and some observers start calling her the border czar.And she knows this is going to be a kiss of death if she is called the border czar.So, her staff immediately, you know, puts out word, “No.No.No.She’s not the border czar.She’s not the border czar.” And it becomes one of these things where a major piece of her political agenda at that point is showing that she is not the border czar.Meanwhile, Republicans are goading her and they’re saying, “Why haven’t you been to the border, border czar?Where are you, border czar?”
And so, she starts to define this as narrowly as she can to say, “No.No.I’m on the root causes of migration.This is a foreign affairs type of job.I’m not in charge of border policy.I’m not in charge of negotiating with Congress over a larger immigration package.” Mind you, she could have done this because nobody was stopping her.It was wide open terrain.If she wants to do this, she can say, “You know what?I want to take a broad view of this because, yes, the root causes are very important and they are a major contributor to migration.But we have to take this holistic view that the administration says that they are trying to do.”
But she doesn’t do it.And it goes back to some of the caution that she showed in a lot of her career.You know, this is a political loser.Don’t head into the fire.So, she doesn’t.
I mean, that’s interesting.I hadn’t heard that.I mean, are you saying that when the Republicans are saying, “You’re the border czar and why aren’t you at the border,” that is was sort of an intentional decision not to go to the border and not to be seen as the border czar?
Well, I will say that she and her staff hated the question, “Why haven’t you been to the border?” And I remember reporting at the time that a lot of immigration experts, including left-leaning immigration experts, thought, “It isn’t such a bad idea for her to go to the border.” Yes, she’s been there.But she’s been there as an attorney general.She hasn’t been there since taking on this new job.You know, to understand the root causes, you have to understand where people wind up, which guess what, it’s the border.So, it wasn’t an unreasonable thing.But it becomes this politically charged thing, “Will she, won’t she go to the border?” And she knows it’s going to create all kinds of headline and nonstop cable news.You know, “She’s at the border.What does she see?” All these things, “You know, I guess she’s the border czar.She’s at the border.”
So, yeah.They’re baiting her quite a bit.And to her, you know, it’s not something at that point where she can say, “Oh, I’m just going to go to the border and take care of it.” But she is under pressure to act.So, she and her staff quickly plan this trip to Guatemala and Mexico.And one of the things that is not really discussed about it is how quickly the trip has to go.Not only are they planning the trip in a hurry, but she can only go for two days because the president has a trip to the United Kingdom that week, mid-week, so she’s got to get back before he leaves the country because they don’t like to have the president and vice president gone at the same time.
So she is doing this whirlwind trip to Mexico and Guatemala, not going to the border.And doesn’t really have time but also doesn’t make time to do the border as part of that.
What are the stakes for Kamala Harris as she heads to Guatemala?
So, the stakes are massive, because —how many people knew about Joe Biden as vice president going to Guatemala and El Salvador and Mexico and all the places that are in this northern triangle purview?Nobody really pays attention, right?This is her first trip abroad as the vice president.She is this history-making vice president.No woman of color has ever represented the United States at that level in another country.So, she’s making diplomatic history here, setting aside her specific policy.
Every network is sending somebody with her.And trust me, I’ve covered other vice presidents and sometimes they are begging reporters to come on these foreign trips.So, this thing is massive.You know, we’re all begging for seats on Air Force Two because we want to document this history.We want to see her.And add to that the political stakes, which again, immigration is emerging as the biggest issue, the biggest vulnerability that this administration has on the right.And it’s coming in not just on the right, but it’s becoming an issue that a lot of people are caring about.A lot of people are seeing it as too much of a loss of control at the border.So, here she is on this big trip, but it’s a two-day trip, you know.How do you live up to that?
So, tell me about what happens on that trip?
Yeah.So, again, we’re all there.It’s COVID restrictions.So, people aren’t really doing that much travel abroad at the time.We’re wearing masks.We have to take tests every day to make sure that we are not COVID-positive before we can even enter the same room as her.And so, everything is really, really constricted on this trip.And it’s very quick.She’s planned, you know, as many meetings as she can for what’s basically 48 hours in two countries.And these trips, you know, a lot of them are pre-baked, right?Like there are certain announcements that are going to be made with another head of state.And that happens on this trip.
And I think from her and her staff’s perspective, they basically checked all the boxes.They do all the stuff that they need to do.It was a kind of like let’s-not-stumble kind of feeling for this trip.“We may not make very ambitious news but let’s just try to cover the bases here.” And as part of the trip, because of the excitement, Lester Holt flies to Guatemala to do a network news interview.And she hasn’t done a lot of these.And at this moment is a huge moment.Here she is abroad.Here she is in this politically-fraught issue.And she’s sitting down with him.
We’re all waiting [at] a university in Guatemala.We don’t see it.But she’s in a room with him talking in the midst of a pretty fast-paced schedule.She has already held bilateral meetings in Guatemala and had a joint press conference.She’s going to be flying later that night to Mexico City.Stuff’s moving fast.We were just sitting there waiting, have no idea what’s going on.And so, she does this interview, and she keeps getting asked all the time about why she isn’t going to the border.So, she’s definitely prepared that she is going to be asked that.But he keeps pressing and pressing.And she lets the prosecutor, you know, sort of acerbic-witted version of Kamala Harris come out and she says, “I haven’t been to Europe either.What’s the big deal?”
And it just becomes this blowup moment back home.But I’m not sure, you know, on the ground where we were in Guatemala, her and her staff didn’t seem fully aware of how much this moment becomes a blowup moment.You know, it starts to build and build.And it’s really only the next day, as the day goes on, and they realize this isn’t just going to go away.We got to deal with it.Because they are sort of trying to dismiss, “Oh, it is just the right-wing is after me.They’re always after me for everything.No big deal.” But it just won’t go away.And it ends up being this defining moment of her vice presidency because she never really is truly able to escape it.
Do you know why?
Well, I think there are a few reasons because I’ve thought about it a lot, obviously.So, I think here’s one reason.She doesn’t ever get any moments to counter it.Nobody is paying as much attention to her as they are at that point.She starts to withdraw after this.She does a lot of round tables and vice-presidential type of stuff.She’s out there with President Biden when he signs things; she’s making announcements about new programs; but she’s not out there really making the kind of news that you make when it’s you.And here she is, very conscious of the idea that she is not supposed to be making news.She’s supposed to be just talking about Biden and his accomplishments all the time.It’s one of the difficulties of being vice president.
So, she’s not making any news to counter this.And meanwhile, people just say, “I don’t think she does anything.I don't know where she is,” because they are not paying attention to her.And she’s purposefully sort of withdrawn from it for a little while, not giving herself many opportunities to change opinions of her.So, what they are seeing are, you know, sort of viral videos of people making fun of the way she talks and the way she laughs and not really seeing her out there making news and changing things.
Most vice presidents don’t make news, by the way.It’s rare.Biden made news in a way that upset Obama when he was vice president by getting ahead of him on gay marriage.But we know about that because it’s the exception.Most of the time, vice presidents are really in the background.So, if the only thing you know about her is this one, high-profile, high-stakes thing, where you know, people have this bad reaction, then she’s not able to counter that.So, with Democrats, including people in Biden’s team, they begin to sort of lose faith in her political skills.You know, you start hearing from Democrats, you know, does she have it at this level.And it becomes a real concern, and a lot of people begin to really write her off.
One other thing on the trip, she also says, “Don’t come.”
Yes.
Does that upset a different group than the —
Yeah.It’s a double whammy.So, she says, “Don’t come.” It really upsets progressive immigration activists because they are like, wait a minute, what kind of message is that?You know, these are migrants fleeing—as you, yourself have said—very dangerous conditions where they may lack security, food, housing, all these things.And your answer to them is “Don’t come?” You know, it’s another example where as vice president, she’s put in this tough position because this is what she’s told to say.Other members of the administration have gone down and said the same thing.But it means a whole lot more when it’s said by someone of her stature.So, it creates much more attention and much more anger in those who don’t like the message.
And so, you have on the one hand, she’s upsetting the left with the “Don’t come.” And on the other hand she’s upsetting the right with the dismissing the idea that she needs to go to the border.
You wrote about the laugh.Why did you write about it?Why did it become a thing?
Yeah.And that was a tricky story for me to write because the laugh is so emblematic about her political persona.Women and women of color are always kind of criticized for things like the way they laugh, the way they dress, the way they talk, right?And she laughs a lot.And a lot of the times when she is running for office, people are saying, “That’s great.She’s showing joy.She’s a happy warrior.” That really excites people.Her critics are like, “Ah!She’s cackling.She’s cackling.” And it’s so strange to have this sort of natural thing that you do to be so polarizing, right?
But on the other hand, there’s a different version of her laugh, which she actually, all politicians have certain things they do to dodge a question, certain phrases they might use, certain reactions they might do.She uses the laugh a lot to dodge a question.So, it is also a real expression of maybe some of her political vulnerabilities.It is both, just like a lot of these things are.She is a politician, and she is a Black woman.And those things are really hard to figure out, like where the unfairness of one infringes on maybe the limitations she might have as a politician.
The Dobbs Decision
You said that in some ways the Dobbs decision does help the beginnings of a political comeback.Tell me the why and how.
So, the one thing that Harris has always had trouble with politically, is defining what are the issues that really animate her personally.What is her ideology?What are her core beliefs?Abortion happens to be right at the top there, something that she has a long history and background of caring deeply about.You know, when she runs for president, she complains that in the debates, abortion is never brought up.She makes a public complaint about it.She is like, “How could this important issue not be brought up?”
She’s looked at access to abortion as a major issue, a dividing issue when she’s in the Senate.That’s one of her viral moments, is grilling Justice Kavanaugh during his confirmation hearing about the issue of abortion rights, really taking it to him saying, “What role does the government have in a man’s body?” This is something she really feels to the core.It’s something she really can generate the prosecutor side of her energy on.
And, by coincidence, the same day that there is a leak in the Dobbs decision, she’s scheduled to speak at a gala for Emily’s List, which is the preeminent women’s political group that tries to elect women on the issue of abortion rights.It’s another instance where, here she is going to tear up her speech.And she really summons the passion that night in a way that so many feel.She said, “How dare they?How dare they?” You could see it in her face.I mean just look at the video.She feels a personal affront by this.And the idea that, you know, this institution that’s insulated from political pressure has made this decision, or apparently made this decision.
And it’s really perfect politically in the sense that she really feels it, but Biden has had a really mixed background on the issue of abortion.You know, he comes from a time when the Democratic Party has mixed views on this.And he is a devout Catholic.He goes to Mass regularly.And like on other issues, he’s evolved and he’s with the majority of the party on this.But he’s not that comfortable talking about it in the same terms certainly that Harris is, as a woman who’s always felt this way and with the same level of passion.So, here’s an issue where she really can fill a gap for Biden.And it’s the first time that you really see that in their relationship.
And the other thing that she’s able to do is really galvanize people electorally in the midterm elections.It’s similar to voting rights in that she is not going to be able to get legislative success in Congress.Congress is too divided.There is too much division on the issue of abortion.They are not going to overturn the Dobbs decision with the Senate that they have, and eventually with the House that they have.But what they can do is just take this issue out and really help them—you know, it becomes one of the major issues that helps Democrats hold as much power as they do during the midterms.They still lose, but they don’t lose by the wide margins that people generally do in midterm elections, that the governing party does and that a lot of people predict.
And a lot of it is because this abortion issue is out there.She is not the only one making the case.There are people making the case all over the country.But she is the most prominent and most powerful face of this issue.And it gives Democrats who were doubting her a reason to say, okay, maybe there is something there.Maybe she is capable of sort of carrying a national message for the party.
Is she developing as a politician during that time?
I think she is developing.She’s not ever going to be the kind of lofty orator that some people want her to be.But again, the prosecutor version of Harris is so well suited to that moment.And if you talk to a lot of her allies, what they will tell you, she’s learned how to find her strengths, how to gravitate toward the things where she is really good and do more of them.
It doesn’t mean that she can do everything.You know, she still tends to do fewer off-the-cuff-type of appearances.She does not give as many press interviews, spontaneous kind of interactions with people outside of controlled environments.
Biden Stumble and Harris Steps Up
A lot of people say that the moment when the focus really comes on her is after the debate between Joe Biden and Donald Trump.And she’s on cable television.Can you help me understand that moment and I guess the stakes for her, as she comes on cable television after that debate?
Well, that’s where you can see her growth politically, right?She’s asked pretty difficult questions, especially for her because she’s got to both show loyalty to Biden but clearly she benefits if Biden drops out.But she can’t express that.But she’s also got to show competence and authority and the ability to carry the mantle if Biden does drop out.So, she comes to Anderson Cooper, I think, and he presses and presses, similar to the Guatemala interview, you know, she’s pressed and pressed: “But this was a bad, you know, debate.This was a bad debate.This was a bad debate.” This time she much more successfully pivots, right?She is like, “Okay.It was some bad moments but let’s look at the whole big picture here.My guy is way better than their guy.”
And she is able to sort of have a much more calibrated answer, a much less defensive answer and still show this loyalty.And a lot of Democrats are very appreciative of it.You start to see people give her a second look at that point.Not necessarily that they are all for her because they are not.There are still a lot of people at that point who are saying they want to get rid of Biden but they want an open process.They’re worried about her.They don’t feel that she necessarily should be the one.
I mean up until that moment, there had been the talk about her poll numbers.There had been talk about, should Joe Biden replace her on the ticket because she was holding him down?I mean, how low was she politically?
Yeah.Most of Biden’s presidency, her poll numbers were worse than his, and his weren’t that good.So, she was not winning over the public and, you know, pollsters had mixed thoughts, focus groups had mixed thoughts, because some were saying, you know, it was irredeemable.Some said, “Well, a lot of people say that people don’t know her.They don’t know what she does.So that gives her an opening that if they do get more exposure to her, then they might come around.” And we’ve seen that, right?Because as soon as she gets the nomination, her poll numbers go from here to here.And it’s pretty remarkable.
Because I’ve looked at her favorability numbers throughout, and they’ve never been as high as they were, and it spiked pretty quickly.You know, again, another example of how valuable timing can be and how unpredictable it can be in politics.
How big a crisis was that debate and the weeks that follow for the Democratic Party and for Kamala Harris?
It’s a huge crisis for the Democratic Party because most Democrats who were in elected positions or authorities within the party believed that Biden was not on a good path and could not win the election.And they couldn’t do anything other than hope that he would decide on his own to leave the race.And Harris is there not showing any daylight between her and Biden because she knows that it can only hurt her, right?If Biden stays in the race and she’s seen as trying to betray him, people will be furious with her, win or lose, right?
If Biden leaves the race and she’s seen as somebody loyal who never wanted him to leave the race, it could only benefit her because people will say, “Well, she was just doing her job.She was showing loyalty.” So, she is extremely careful.Her aides are extremely careful.Most people who know her are extremely careful, public and private to say, “Oh, no, no, no no.The last thing in the world she wants is for Biden to exit the race.No, no, no.He’s the best candidate.”
So, it’s a very tough position, though, because you sort of have to have one eye worried that, wait a minute.There are a lot of people who want him to leave the race but they want a wide-open competition because they don’t trust me to be the nominee.How do I show loyalty but sort of keep my rear flank protected?That was a moment where she really couldn’t do much.She had to hope that everybody else would see, you know, benefit to her taking over the top of the ticket.
Harris Becomes the Democratic Presidential Nominee
She gets the word that she’s going to be on the ticket, and I mean, how does she react and what does she do in the moment?
It’s a really remarkable moment because, you know, clearly the longer it takes for the party to coalesce around her, the more likely it is that it will be an open process and somebody else might get the nomination.So she’s got to move really fast.And she does.You know, they order pizza, with anchovies for some reason, and she calls like one or 200 people, tells all these other people to call other people.And people start lining up one after the next for her and basically shut down the process of having anybody else challenge for the nomination in really quick fashion.
And you know, that showed a political skill because you don’t that easily rally a party that’s been divided for two months in 24 to 48 hours.That was a big feat, and she benefited because a lot of Democrats at that point were exhausted by the division, worried by the division, concerned that if they didn’t get her started quickly that they were going to lose an opportunity against Trump, who they very deeply wanted to get rid of.
Was she ready to go?
Yeah.That’s the thing.She was ready to go.She wasn’t talking about it publicly or much privately, but she knew what she was doing at that point.
This image of the Lester Holt interview had stuck with her.We talked a little bit about her after the debate.I mean how important, though, what are the stakes, when she goes out, she gives the first speech at the campaign headquarters, and people are watching her in the first few days after Biden leaves the ticket?
Yeah.A lot of people haven’t heard about her since the Lester Holt interview at that point.They know she’s the vice president.But the thing you see in focus groups and polls is a lot of people say, “I don't know what she does.” Again, not too many people paid attention to other vice presidents, so it’s not that surprising.But in her case, she came in with all this stature, but they hadn’t really heard that much about her.So here she is, there is all this attention on her.And she’s got to show people, “I’m here to rally.” You know, one of the big concerns people had about Biden was just the quality of his voice had gone down.He wasn’t able to project the case in a physical sense.
And here is somebody with a very strong voice who can powerfully say, “I’ve got the energy and I’ve got the passion that I can summon to make the case,” because Democrats very much want this election to be not about them but about Donald Trump.And here we have somebody who is a prosecutor who knows how to make it about the other person.Again, timing is fitting her strength.So, she’s coming in.All these people are wondering.They don’t even know if she is going to try and build a whole new campaign staff.You’ve only got a little over three months at this point.And she comes in and she says, “No, no, no, we’re going to have some level of continuity here.I’m not going to create that hurdle for myself.But I’m going to be a new face for this operation.”
So, that just settles a lot of things for Democrats.They are already feeling like, okay, this election that felt like a death march for the party is now alive again.It is not necessarily that they are going to win but they’ve got a shot.
People told us that they were surprised by her, people who have known her, just the way that she paused to let the crowd react.Were you surprised when you saw her at rallies?
Yeah.She’s gotten much more the rhythm of these big arena speeches.She’s gotten much more of the confidence where she is in control of what she wants to say.And she is feeding off the crowd in a way that she wasn’t able to do when she was in the primary, especially.And she just wasn’t getting the big crowds after the first one.Now she is getting the crowds.So, it is all set up for her.And that just feeds on itself.You know, the same negative cycle that came after the Guatemala interview, it’s become this virtuous cycle where she can feed off all the positive vibes that she is getting from people.And that just makes a big difference for people.
And so that’s part of why this timing is so remarkable for her.You know, I mean she might have had trouble if she had to win this in a primary.She might have had trouble if she had a long campaign and had more time for ups and downs.And this short, compressed campaign is sort of the perfect timing for her.
I mean, and in 2019 she was running against Democrats.And in 2024 she is running against Donald Trump.
Yes.And so if you are somebody who’s had an ideology that’s uncertain, that people don’t really know where it is, it’s a lot easier to position yourself in opposition to one person than it is within this spectrum of Democrats, you know, some economic populace versus Civil Rights activist versus foreign policy activists.You know, she doesn’t, she can sort of smooth over that.She can just say, “It’s me versus Trump.Him bad.Me good.” You know, and that’s just a lot easier of a case to make.
And I guess the prosecutor identity is in a different context, too, now.
Yeah.Exactly.As a prosecutor, it’s a lot easier to just go after one person who you’re trying to project as a fundamental threat than it is to go after a group of people who you just want to slightly differentiate yourself from and say you’re the best alternative—but you don’t really want to get in a real fight with.
… I think one of his very first reactions to her was calling her “Laughing Kamala Harris” or however he pronounces her name or mispronounces her name.He’s questioned her racial identity.He’s played on some of these issues for her.For her how does she respond to that going in?How has she been prepared for dealing with very direct sort of attacks on these issues of race and gender?
I think Democrats have decided that all of the personal attacks he makes on her, especially those that are gender and race-based are just helping them make their case.They were expecting it.They know that he’s going to do it.And one of the things that they’ve done since they added Tim Walz to the ticket, and even beforehand, was try a new way to diminish him—you know, this idea of calling him weird, it makes him less threatening to people but more out of step with the mainstream.And that’s the message I think they’re trying to send.
The old idea that he was this fundamental threat that was making everybody anxious, it’s still there for a lot of Democrats but it’s a much harder case to make to undecided voters.So, what she’s been able to do is draw a different contrast.He’s angry.He has these old ideas.And I’m here to have some fun, to be a little happier about things.And so they’ve used that to sort of try to broaden the contrast they’re making with Trump.And again, Democrats badly need to drive up numbers among women voters, specifically suburban women voters.And what are the two biggest issues that they have for them?Abortion rights, but also just the personality of Donald Trump and his history of the civil rulings against him in the sexual assault case and the comments he’s made about women—and the general idea that he is misogynist in the eyes of a lot of Democratic voters.
And it sounds like that is sort of organic to who she is.You were saying they didn’t want to be calling out racism and sexism on every issue.So is that part of her approach as a politician is to sort of let it, maybe reflect it but sort of let it slide?
I think she wants to call him out as somebody who is sexist and racist.But I don’t think she wants to say, “I’m the victim.” I think she wants to say, “His attack on me is an illustration of who he is but I don’t feel it,” because she doesn’t want to look like he’s getting to her or that this is about her.She wants it to be about him.
Actually, one more question, which is the interesting thing, which is the contrast between her and Hillary Clinton.Because she’s broken so many barriers as well.And when Hillary Clinton was running, there was a lot of talk about breaking the glass ceiling and I’m with her.That doesn’t seem to be Kamala Harris, the politician emphasizing the sort of historic nature of any of her campaigns as her front and center.
I think the campaign is very happy to emphasize it.They are happy to emphasize it around her and to be, especially, a female-focused campaign.But the direct calling out of, “Look at me.I’ll be the first,” is diminished compared to Hillary Clinton.And part of that is the recognition that she doesn’t necessarily need to say it.It’s obvious, you know.But you know, I’ve been on the road with her with Black sororities.She’s always gone to see Black sororities.It’s a big part of her identity.And she wants [it] to be a big part of her identity.And in the introduction of her in front of a Black sorority, they are saying she will be the first and this is an exciting moment.But she doesn’t need to say it.Other people can say it about her.So I think that is probably one of the bigger differences.
That’s interesting.So, the final question that we ask everybody is what it, because the film is called The Choice, what is the choice that voters face in November?
I think the choice is really about views of government, democracy, what the country should look like both at home and abroad, specifically demographically and its role in the world are really, really on the ballot in this one.
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