The FRONTLINE Interviews
Rohini Kosoglu
Harris Adviser
Rohini Kosoglu served in the White House as a domestic policy adviser to Vice President Kamala Harris. Kosoglu also served as chief of staff in Harris’ Senate office, and for her first presidential campaign. She is currently a policy fellow at Stanford University.
The following interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on August 9, 2024. It has been edited for clarity and length.
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Kamala Harris Arrives in the U.S. Senate
When does Kamala Harris first come on your radar?When do you first hear about her?
Well, I had been thinking about leaving actually my government work that I was doing, working in policy for many years in the United States Senate.And I decided when she had gotten elected that I was going to apply to work for her.And I started on day one in the United States Senate with her as her deputy chief of staff and got to be a part of building up her office in the Senate.
What was it like for her to arrive at that moment?People have told us about what election night was like, as she’s elected but also Donald Trump.What was it like for her to arrive into Donald Trump’s Washington?
Well, the whole mood of the Senate had changed.You know, you saw members walking around trying to make sense of what was happening in this moment, what President Trump wanted, what his agenda, what he wanted to do.She very much came in with, coming off of being attorney general of California and wanting our entire office to really think through in this moment what this meant for Americans and how to fight for their freedoms and their future.So, that was really important to her.
We started everything from hearings for nominations, for people that were going to run different agencies in the Trump administration.And these were just very different answers than most nominees had given in the past.
Let me just go back for a second.Tell me about meeting her the first time and what she was like and why you decided to work for her.
So, if I had to think of one word, I would say fearless.She is somebody that came in very focused, focused on the job, focused on the work.At her core, all of the policies and the decisions she would think through really were thinking about Californians, the American people at the time.And she would help us thinking through, you know, understanding that so many people are going about their day without thinking about the different policy decisions that we’re making in Washington, D.C.And even when we think about showing up at a hearing or using, you know, at the time for Senators, it is just five minutes to ask questions.But she took the duty and responsibility of the role extremely seriously.
And what we saw was just every opportunity we got to show up for, whether it’s committee work or hearings, it was really important to her to think through, what is our role of oversight in this moment?What is our role for how the government needs to work for people?And we need to connect the dots when we are talking to these nominees or we’re holding them accountable for different policies that may end up harming people.
Do you think she had a different approach than other senators?Other senators have come from different backgrounds, different states.What defined her as a senator compared to the other people in that building?
Well, like I said, the mood was so different at the time.I mean, they were coming off of President [Barack] Obama really, in the second term, trying to put forward a number of proposals to unify the public and the American people.And then the change you saw with President Trump, even on both sides of the aisle, was just that there was an agenda that he was trying to pursue his first year in office, and it was very chaotic to be honest.
And in that moment, you have a senator that is coming in incredibly focused in terms of all the work that she had done as attorney general, fighting on behalf of consumers, fighting on behalf of Californians when she felt like people were being taken advantage of.And so, in this moment, in the Senate as we’re looking at different bodies of work and areas that she wanted to pursue, it was really important to think through, what are we doing and is this in the best interests of the people.
Harris in the Senate Confirmation Hearings
The moments that seem to propel her career that so many people remember are those hearings and is her in the hearings.Can you help me, before we go to the hearings, understand what’s going on behind the scenes before the hearings?
Yeah.So, our teams, she thought through so many different pieces of the work, how we should approach the work.We really had an understanding that we have such limited time.And also, when you look at the United States Senate, her positions in almost every hearing was one of the last people to ask questions.And that’s incredibly difficult because the senators before you ask what they think are the most important issues at hand.
And what you saw was, while we would give her material, she would not just look through that material and use her incredible ability to parse through what is important for people, but also, in real time, a lot of people when you’re watching these different hearings would see her taking notes, thinking through, what are we trying to elicit out of this hearing.What are we trying to help people understand?Why should they even be watching and paying attention?
And so, you would see different senators, and often we would see, in the hearings we would say, “Oh, that question was taken.And that one was taken.” And it’s our job, though, working through these different options, to be in constant communication about other areas she could look into.And a lot of these moments, as you saw, were really her, in real time, thinking through, “Nobody’s asked this question and it’s really important for people to know the answer.”
And was there a lot of work that went in before?Because people have told us that as a prosecutor that’s one of her traits, what she wants to be maybe even over-prepared for anything.
She’s incredibly prepared.… She was also incredibly, incredibly thoughtful about how—to about thinking through what different precedents that we had in government and how these nominees would either hold themselves accountable for those particular policies or when they needed to answer what they were planning on doing.…
I think back to one exchange with—a lot of nominees do private meetings with Senators before they go up for nomination.And one area was with Secretary John Kelly who became head of the Department of Homeland Security.And when they met, one of the things that vice president, then Senator Harris, but Vice President Harris wanted to know was, you know, under the Obama administration, Dreamers in this country gave over their information to the government.And it was explicit that that information would not be used for enforcement purposes.
And she wanted Secretary Kelly to then understand what these Dreamers were going through, the anxiety they now faced in a Trump administration.And he told her that he would meet with their representative.And she said, “No.I want you to meet with them directly.I want you to be able to look them in the eyes and hear their lived experience.” And that was really important to her, actually taking on this D.C.culture of everyone meeting with somebody’s lobbyist or somebody’s advocate or representative.She really thought it was important for people at these highest levels to understand people’s different lived experiences.
Could you give me some of the sort of inside description of the [Brett] Kavanaugh moment because—I mean there are a couple.But that seems like one of the places she really stands out.
So, when it came to the Kavanaugh hearings, obviously, we saw that Christine Blasey Ford came forward with her story.And you could see in that hearing that the senators that were on the Republican side at the time were being incredibly hard on Christine Blasey Ford and questioning her motives, why she was coming forward.And when it got to then Senator Harris, she really wanted to make sure that Christine Blasey Ford knew that she believed her.That was really important for women across America, for men watching, that we want people to come forward and share their stories when things, or a position like a Supreme Court nominee is being up for consideration.
She also shared with her senators privately that in her experience as somebody that had been a prosecutor for this many years of their life, she had been in so many different situations where, when they were trying to pick jury cases for the case in front of them that also people would ask, they would raise their hands, men and women, and they would say, “I need to go back in judge’s chamber and tell you about my experience when it came to sexual abuse, allegations of sexual assault.” And they would often share, as she shared with senators, they would say, “I haven’t even told my spouse this.”
And so, it was something that she knew at her core was incredibly important, to convey the courage it took to come forward and talk about something that happened to you in your life.And I think that was important for her to be able to share her experience all those years as a prosecutor, trying to protect people and then helping other senators understand the lived experience of so many Americans on this.
It seems like such a personal issue for her.We spoke to Wanda Kagan.It’s a theme throughout her career, this issue.And that’s what she’s reflecting in that moment.
Yeah.Senators were taken aback.It was pretty powerful to be able to speak directly from your own lived experience on behalf of what other Americans were experiencing something so private and hard to talk about.And so, often what we try and do is, in that moment actually when I think about the Christine Blasey Ford testimony, she didn’t end up using the questions that she was given because she, in that moment, felt she really needed to reassure Christine Basey Ford and other American watching, we want you to participate in our government.
Harris’ 2019 Run for President
Can you help me understand the discussions around that decision to run for president in 2019 and why?Because we’ve heard different things.We’ve heard people were saying, “It’s your time.” And we’re trying to figure out, what did motivate her to make that decision?Was there a meeting that you were in where she finally decided to do it?
So, in 2018 there were a number of Senators weighing the decision to run for president.What I can say is that there is no data for anybody that tells you definitively, you’re going to win a race with the American people in running for president.So much of it is really your gut feeling in that moment.You can look at all the different data under the sun but there is not one compelling piece that’s going say, “This is definitive.You should do it.And this is what it’s going to lead to.” And she had to wrestle with that.But it is a huge toll on your family.It’s a huge toll on the work you’re trying to do at the same time, while pursuing a run.
But it was incredibly important to put herself out there.And there were so many Americans that were in that moment really saying that we think that you are the right direction for the country.And so, a lot of different elements came together and she made the announcement in Oakland in early 2019.
I think people do describe her as data driven.She describes herself that way.But you’re saying that a decision like that can’t be data driven.So, was it a gut decision?I mean, help me on that final part of that.
I believe it was at the end of the day a gut decision.What is very hard about these things is, you can look at different polls.You can look at focus groups.But as she even says when she talks about her decision to run for district attorney of San Francisco, her polling numbers were below—if you could be below zero, they would be below zero.And so, oftentimes, most elected officials say, you know, “If I had listened to the polls, I never would have done it.” …
We’ve had people talk to us about what that announcement was like in Oakland.There was so much energy at the beginning.What happened?Why wasn’t 2019 her year?
Well, I often look at 2019 as — there were over 20 people in a primary race.And at the end of the day, only one person wins.I mean that’s what’s challenging about any primary.I believe it had been the most amount of people in a primary race that we had seen in history at the time.…
But I truly think at the end of the day, you know, it was very clear even early on that then-Vice President [Joe] Biden was a clear favorite across America to end up being the eventual nominee.And what we found was also, you know, she put herself in a well enough position to be considered as then vice president as a running mate.
It must have been hard, though, for her to end the campaign.… Just tell me about the moment of her deciding that it wasn’t going to work that time.
There is no question that that day was extremely challenging.I look back at that campaign as we had an incredible amount of people that would not have gotten the opportunity if this was a one-person race, to even join the campaign.They wouldn’t have been asked.They may have had some doors shut to them because they didn’t have the prerequisite working on other campaigns in the past.And so there was an incredible amount of talent we saw, a ton of Democratic operatives that are across our political spectrum, both in the government and politics today, are literally in leadership positions because of that campaign.
And so I think back to that day, as hard as it was, as challenging as it was, it was incredibly rewarding to see, not just the faces around that all went through this experience together, but to see where everybody has ended up.So many of them ended up working for President Biden and Vice President Harris in so many different capacities and helping to run this government and our Democratic political infrastructure that it’s been great, honestly to reunite with so many of them across that time.
Harris is Biden’s Pick for Vice President
As the nominee, Vice President Biden’s staff is vetting different possible vice presidential candidates, what are they looking at Kamala Harris for?What do you have to reassure them about?And what leads to her being the one that they select?
Well, we would often say Vice President Biden, at the time, has the right to pick whomever he wants.And her job at the time was to be senator to the great State of California, and being senator was also surrogate for Vice President Biden at the time to become president of the United States.And so the imperative was to do both jobs well.That was the imperative.But really, at your core function it was to be the best senator you can for the people of California.And so, we kept that sort of North Star throughout.…
George Floyd, as you remember, unfortunately was tragically killed.And so there were a number of things where things were just happening in the moment.And I don't know if there is one, definitive thing that is why President Biden ended up picking her.
What I can tell you is, throughout my experience I would see them, often throughout the years, even when I was in the Senate —I definitely remember running into him with her on the Amtrak.And you would have thought they were about to have a party in the Amtrak train station.And also, if we were driving somewhere I remember her pulling down the window and yelling out to Joe Biden who was on the sidewalk and getting out of the car, giving a big hug.
She actually knew then-Vice President Biden through his son, Beau.They had worked together on the mortgage settlement deal that happened nationwide.She was incredibly close to him but she just felt so much affection for President Biden that it was very funny when they ran into each other because it felt like a party was happening.
One of the reasons I wonder about that moment now is because of what happened later and the sort of loyalty that she would have to show him going through difficult periods.I mean was that part of the thing that she has to accept when she accepts the vice presidential nomination is a level of loyalty to Biden, to be the number two?
Well, one thing you have to keep in mind is that she met him through his son.And so she was able to really feel so protective over him I think throughout the administration.It felt very natural when she joined the ticket.And he was so generous and kind.They helped with accommodations in Wilmington so that she would be comfortable.And they had an incredible rapport.They did a lot of media interviews together.And they actually, due to COVID, they spent a tremendous amount of time in those early days also going through transition, trying to decide how to build up the government—and they had an incredible rhythm that seemed as if they had been working together for a long time.
Harris as the Second Black Woman to Serve in the Senate
Let me ask you one more question about the Senate before we go into the White House years.She is the second Black woman to serve as a United States Senator.What was it like for her to go into that institution?People told us about the statues that are around.And there are a lot of white men.What was it like for her to go into an environment like that?And what reception did she get?
Well, what I can say is she is the first senator I had ever worked for that we would be walking throughout the halls and young people would start yelling and screaming.And they wanted to take a picture.And then being chief of staff at the time, they’re just shoving a camera to me and saying, “Take our picture.” And it was incredibly exciting but it was also something that she would always want to make sure people knew that she saw them and that she would make time for them, even when we were trying to run for votes and make sure that she got counted and her vote was accepted, people would be stopping us and things like that.
So for her, I think it always comes back to the work and the people.And what I found though, over time, is that she would often find ways to still find joy in the work.And so, we would stop to take pictures.We would run into so many different people.And it was actually a time where we were able to find joy even though some of the policies that were coming out of the Trump administration were so challenging to deal with.
I remember even my own children, you know, my oldest son was three at the time when I started working for her, and sometimes if I was with him, they would put him on the conference call and he would, at three years old or four years old be kicking off the call to the communications director who was giving a news update.And you know, she was so embracing of people’s families and children and making sure that we saw them or that we all left at a certain time on Halloween to make sure that we could take them trick or treating.So, she is incredibly thoughtful like that.
Harris’ First Year as Vice President
What was it like to go into the White House in—it’s weeks after January 6th.It’s still the middle of COVID.Help me understand the environment that she walks into what’s already a pretty difficult job.
We walked in on day one with masks on.And only several people—I can’t remember if it was a quarter or even less than that, were actually able to come in on day one.They didn’t want the entire White House to be joining on day one.And so they tried to stagger it for public health reasons.That’s incredibly hard to not be able to see the president and vice president’s face as you’re briefing them or you are sitting in meetings and you’re trying to get feedback.But the thing that was on the top of their mind was how we get the American people stability and a sense of security at this time.
I mean it was so challenging to have the COVID infections cases increasing, also an administration that hadn’t built up a public health infrastructure.So, trying to set up essentially places and vaccines and also do right by people knowing that their kids were out of school.… You know, millions of jobs were being lost at the time.And so there was a real focus on, how do we get this right?How do we get the recovery of our small businesses, of people’s jobs, how do we get them back to work?How do we get kids back in school?And how do we get out from under this?
The phrase people sometimes use in describing this first year, they say it is hard for her to find her lane because the president had been a senator for so long, had so much experience in foreign policy that there wasn’t a clear model.Is that right?Was it a sort of struggle to figure out who she would be as vice president and where she would fit into that administration?
Well, I think that she was probably the first vice president that had this amount of media coverage walking into the job.When people think back, you know, how much did we think about what Mike Pence was doing on any given day, how much did you think about, you know, the movements of Vice President Biden during his administration or Vice President Dick Cheney?So, there was just a lot of unity on the ticket.…And so on top of that you have a very fast media ecosystem.She was also the first vice president to get her own presidential pool of reporters tracking her events.And so there was a variety of things that she had worked on in the Senate, many bills that she had worked on that the administration put forward as policies.And she was able to essentially get them passed into law as part of the administration.And so, she was speaking to so many different issues that, you know, some people I think have talked about wanting one specific lane.Some people talked about several lanes.And really a lot of it just came out of her work and working with President Biden in their day-to-day work and seeing where she could be helpful.
Harris Takes on the Root Causes of Migration
And so much of the focus on those first few years from the media is on the root causes of migration.And looking back at it people say, why did she get a portfolio that was a decades’ long challenge and wasn’t going to pay off?What’s the answer to that?
Vice President Biden, at the time, also had the root causes of migration, and when he became president he wanted to also have her be a part of that role as well.But you look at where we are today, I mean the three countries that are considered what’s part of the Northern Triangle … She’s been able to secure billions of dollars from companies that are around the United States just to help with that in those countries, build up their own infrastructure so that people feel safe in their homes.They feel like they want to stay in their homes versus deciding they need to drop everything and leave to come over the border.
Harris Doesn’t Focus on Racial or Gender Criticisms
I mean as you mentioned, there is so much media scrutiny on her.And some of it is about things that are not about policy.They’re about her laugh.They’re about how she talks.They’re about things that you are seeing on Fox News.What is the response to that, because some of these things play on gender, play on race?How was that viewed inside the office?
Well, she’s not someone that dwells on if there is media coverage that seems unfair or things you would want to litigate about how something was portrayed.She’s incredibly resilient.She is actually a role model for so many people to watch her be the first in so many different positions.I remember often we would run into young people.And they would be so excited.And they would come up to her and they might be nervous.And this is young and even old I’ve seen.They would come and they would be so nervous.And she would say, “Head up.Shoulders back.” And she just projected the confidence she wanted them to have, to know that in these moments, it’s not always easy, but we do this because sometimes we are going to be in these rooms where we’re often maybe the only person that looks like ourselves.
And she wants them to know that their voice is incredibly powerful and it’s incredibly helpful to moving forward good things to help people.And so it’s really inspiring to watch her engage with people despite what is happening in the news that day or the coverage.Even on tough days she still is thinking about how to help other people find their own voice, how to empower themselves.And that was incredible to watch.
Harris’ Evolution as Vice President
Did you see—I mean as things change, and people also told us she had to be around Washington because of the Senate votes.And that things start to change in the second two years.Did you see a change in her vice presidency over that time or a change in how she approached it?
I honestly just saw a person that was able to really be around Americans more.She was able to engage and travel and do all the work that she was continuing to do even from years in the Senate throughout her career as AG and DA.But this is a person that really thinks very hard when developing policy or thinking through the work.You know, she’d often say in meetings, “Okay, now you’ve told me the program and how it is going to work, how is this going to affect a middle-class family?How is this going to affect a single mom?How is this going to affect the person that actually takes the bus to work?”
So those are a lot of the questions that she would be thinking through while we’re building the plan as you fly in an administration that walked in with many things, where they are just completely rebuilding infrastructure within a White House and an administration.So, it was incredibly challenging but it was also very rewarding.I think she got to really delve into a number of issues and each year was getting progressively better on the job.And she was also honing in on being able to ask these questions.And frankly, for everyone to get better answering them in terms of thinking through how can we best serve the American people.
Were you with her, do you know her reaction when the Dobbs decision leaks?
The day the Dobbs decision leaked was a very intense day.She was very shocked and reading some of the, sort of the way that they were looking at a law that had been the law of the land for 50 years, and signaling that this is a right, a healthcare right for women across America, that they were essentially signaling that they were planning on taking away, was something that didn’t sit right with her.And so, we also, at the same time had a speech that she had to give at Emily’s List, which is an organization to help Democratic women get elected into office.And it was a venue where we knew the Dobbs decision had leaked and it was also where she had to sit down and think through what does she want to say in this moment.And so you saw a speech where really the core of that was, how dare they.
It’s hard to remember at this very moment what the Washington criticism of her was not that long ago.Talk about her poll numbers compared to the president, even talk among some donors of, should she be on the ticket.How did she react to that sort of Washington criticism of her?
She, as long as I’ve worked for her, she has literally walked into the office focused on the work.And all the different poll numbers or different things, that’s not what drives her.She is like, we have a limited time to help people.We have a bully pulpit in which we can use our voice and our platform to help people.And it is something that not everyone is going to have.And so we really have to understand our role and responsibility to the American people when doing this kind of work.
And so that’s infused throughout the office.And she really embodies that.So, there could be a lot of different things out, people chattering, different numbers coming out.And she’s incredibly focused on how are we helping everyday Americans in their lives.So if you show up trying to distract or things like that from the work, that you will see all around you that it is focused on what is she doing that day.How can we be helping people?What are different—are we thinking through things in the right way?
There is a constant focus on the work.And I think that it was a great honor to serve in that role.
Biden Stumbles and Harris Steps Up
Were you watching her the night of the debate, when she goes on CNN after a lot of people, a lot of Democrats are sort of shocked by President Biden’s performance?Because a lot of people told us that was the moment when Washington said, “Oh, who is this?” And started paying attention to her.Did you see that and what did you see in her in that moment?
Well, she’s incredibly insightful.I think that the point she made about how no 90 minutes should define someone’s three and a half years of work, was an important point to make.She’s been watching the president and her every day—one of the first things they both read is the classified material from the National Security community to them.And they essentially read about all the different threats that America is facing.And that’s the way they start their day, really, just in terms walking through the most important security issues in our country and trying to keep Americans safe.
And so, throughout that day you have the threats in front of us at the top of their mind.And then they travel throughout the day.They get on meetings.They’re engaging with the American people.So, you can imagine how particularly the work that they do, they take so much pride in it.And they’ve been doing it through what started in the middle of the public health crisis and an economic crisis.And to be at this place in time where you have historic accomplishments by any metric—15 million jobs, you have neighborhood businesses up and going, people going out, concerts, stadiums, being able to enjoy their day-to-day life again.
And so, I think in that moment, she felt incredibly, you know, a sense of responsibility to defend the record President Biden had put forward.… Every day would walk in and infuse the sense that we are all in the same team and it is our job.We are the president’s people and we are doing the work to improve the lives of people.
Harris as the Democratic Presidential Nominee
Most presidential campaigns start out two years before election day or even more.She’s dropped into a moment of crisis with only months to go until the election.Have you talked to her?What is she like in a moment like that where she knows the clock is ticking?She believes democracy is on the line and it’s on her.What is she like right now, in this moment?
She’s incredibly focused.That wouldn’t surprise anyone.It’s not surprising that she told Governor [Tim] Walz when she offered him the running mate slot that they are considered the underdogs, that they need to earn every vote.That all tracks with everything I’ve known about her.And that the fight and the stakes are so high in this moment because, you know, we have to paint the contrast against two different visions for the future.
And in her vision for the future, there is a thriving middle class.And there are going to be efforts to lower costs for people.There are going to be areas she is going to focus on to build people up, to give them more opportunity.And then to also allow them to retire with dignity.Those are all things that come to her mind when she is thinking about a future in which we’re all working together towards a common goal to give people back more freedoms and rights versus less.
But she understands the stakes are so incredibly high.But I’m not surprised that, you know, she is incredibly focused on the task at hand.She is somebody that really looks at the piece right in front of her and wants to make sure that we get this right.
What is the Choice on the Ballot?
The last question that we ask everybody is, what is the choice?What is the choice that is facing voters in November as you see it?
Well, the choice is really about the fight for the future of our democracy.It is the fight for people’s freedom in this country.And it is the fight for what opportunities do they want for their family moving forward, for them, their children, grandchildren.It’s important to think about that there is a sense where we have a middle class that thrives in this country, that we have access to everything from increased access to healthcare, clean air, clean water.There are so many rights on the line in this moment.
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