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Rudy Giuliani

Trump Attorney

Rudy Giuliani is a politician and attorney who serves as one of Donald Trump’s personal lawyers. Giuliani was the mayor of New York City from 1994 to 2001.

The following interview was conducted by FRONTLINE’s Michael Kirk on June 12, 2020. It has been edited for clarity and length.

This interview appears in:

The Choice 2020

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The Allure of Manhattan

Young Donald Trump, taking the train in from the outer borough in Queens, coming into New York City.You know this story; you probably did it yourself.What did he see?What was he interested in about New York?

Well, I can't take you back quite that far.I met him, he was already quite successful.It was the mid- to late '80s.I was the United States attorney in the Southern District of New York and at that point had become quite well known for my prosecution of the Mafia, [Ivan] Boesky, a lot of the crooks in the Koch administration.And he, of course, was getting to be very well known.

But before you start there, let me ask you this.Imagine what it was like.You know what New York was like in those days.It's the '60s.He's going into that city—what's, what's he— because he had a lifelong obsession with Manhattan.Where does that come from?You had it, too, I think.

A lifelong obsession.

Obsession with New York.

Oh, absolutely, you can.I mean, well, I believe that people fall into two categories.Not so much about New York—about Manhattan.They either fall in love with it, or they hate it.There are very few "It's OK," or, "I like it, but not that much."It's "I love it; I can't do without it; it's in my blood," or, "I don't know how you can live in that place."The rest of the city, which is most of the city, is like every place else in America, but Manhattan is like no place else in the world.

What did he see?What did you see when you were—

Well, what you see is, first of all, you see a—you see a natural wonder of buildings, you know.It's like the pyramids, or it's like some grand mountain range.The buildings dwarf you.The buildings remind you of how unimportant you are because you're so tiny.When you see them from the sky for the first time, it looks like, depending on your perspective, one of the great wonders of the world or a concrete jungle.From below, when you're walking it, it's also that dual experience.It's clearly without any doubt the most exciting city in the world.London can match it at certain times, Paris somewhat.That's about it.Rome, in a small way.But still, they are so far behind.

There's no feeling of excitement like you get in Manhattan, almost any time of the day, but certainly, oh, in the hour or so building up to the opening of Broadway that night, which happens every night, and there are 15 million people hanging around.The after-Broadway crowd, after, everybody's talking about the show they saw.The Yankees may have played that night, and they're coming back into Manhattan, and they're talking about whether the Yankees won or lost.And everybody's talking about politics.

It's an all-night city, probably the most truly all-night city in the world.I mean, literally, you can get anything you need any time of the day.When I ran for mayor the third time, I campaigned for three straight days, 24 hours, and I found almost as many people to appeal to at 4:00 in the morning as at 4:00 in the afternoon.

Fred Trump, Sr.

Amazing.Did you know Fred, Sr.?

I did, but only through my knowledge of Donald.In other words, Donald introduced me to his father.I had no independent dealings with him.

What was he like?What was his reputation?

You know, I can't tell you for sure because I wasn't in that business.I can just tell you from afar.Very much a gentleman, very old-fashioned gentleman.Always wore a suit, always wore a tie.Sort of that generation.Pulled out chairs for women.Very gracious.Donald has somewhat of a salesman's—high-level salesman's personality.He'll be out front a lot, and he'll be aggressive, and he'll be funny.And his dad was more of a quiet man, more of a—at least this is my impression of knowing him, maybe having met him four or five times, always in a social setting, and then having read about him quite a bit.I mean, he was very famous—

Funeral, right? I think you were at the funeral.

Well, I definitely was at his—by that time I had become even closer to the family.But, I mean, I remember Fred before I remember Donald.And I don't mean remember him personally; I mean remember him by reading about him in the newspapers.Fred became rather famous for his—the housing he was building, and a lot of it was considered to be very innovative and very valuable.And then of course, whenever you build housing in New York, there's a group of people who object to your taking the land.So as a lawyer—student first, then lawyer—you tend to pay attention to those stories.

… Did he ever talk about what his dad gave him, taught him, what lessons? …

Not as much as you would think, but yes… The only way you would get an acknowledgement out of Donald that he may have not done it right, he would say, "I think my dad would have done that differently."There are two ways in which he can say that."I think my dad would have done it differently," meaning he would have done it better; "I think my dad would have done it differently," because his dad would not have known of the modern things that you can now do that would hold him back.So you have to know Donald's inflection in his voice to know, is he comparing himself to his father where he thought his father was better than him, or was he comparing himself to his father where he thought his father would be limited by time?I don't think Donald is one of these people that wanted to exceed his father, even though he did.I think he's someone who wanted to live up to the expectations of his father.

And what would those have been?

To be very, very successful; to have an impact on the world; to—don't know if his dad had political dreams for him.I don't know that; he may have.I think he had dreams for him of being like the best-known and most effective builder in the country, building innovative, great new things since Fred—Fred made his money and his success and reputation building very, very good, utilitarian buildings, buildings that would be more middle-class/upper-middle-class buildings.

So … he arrives in New York City, in Manhattan, in the '70s.New York in the '70s, a lot of crime, a lot of drugs, a lot of financial problems.My God, what a—the Big Apple was rotten during the '70s and early '80s until, if you'll excuse the expression, you got in.What did Donald Trump see when he came into that city?What would New York have looked like to him then?

Well, it was, with all its faults and with all its declining economy, it was still probably the best-known city in the world.I think if you took a poll of cities, I think New York would be the best-known city certainly in the Western world, and if you spread it out, I think even now in the world.Even though it had deteriorated, it had its own excitement, still tremendous excitement.It's built in the character of the people of the city to be exciting, talented.It's not just New Yorkers.Roughly half of New Yorkers come from somewhere else.So New York is constantly being rejuvenated, we often say, by immigrants, and it is being rejuvenated by new cultures. …

But even granting all the great things about New York, it was also the great crimes.There were huge problems in New York.

It was—it was a total contradiction, right?It was all the things I just said, and you know, it would have—we had years where I think there was more murder in New York than in Vietnam.I remember the doctor at Kings County Hospital telling me that he brought doctors to Kings County to train in surgery because they would never get more experience with gunshots, not even on a battlefield.I mean, we had a couple years, right before I came into office, of 2,400 murders, 2,200 murders.This year, by the way, it'll be between 300 and 400.I just want to give you an idea of the order of magnitude difference.

There are people that say—and I probably agree this is true, but the negative outweighs the positive—there are people that say that that level of crime made New York exciting; that there—but I would think that's more for the weird personality. …

Trump’s Early Real Estate Deals

What did he do—what did he do in that city as we've just described?How did Trump make his mark?When you heard about him, when you watched it happen, what was he actually doing, Mayor Giuliani?

Well, I think the way—I mean, I didn't watch him that carefully until about 1988–89, but of course watched him, because everybody did.And I would see him at Yankee games because he was a good friend of George Steinbrenner's and I was a good friend of George Steinbrenner's.I saw him immediately as a builder who wanted to move the type of building he was good at doing to the next step.And Dad was a residential builder, Queens; he wanted to be a master builder.He wanted to be a master builder of great office buildings, great hotel buildings, eventually casinos.

He had a sense of architecture.He knew the kinds of buildings he wanted to contribute to the New York skyline.And he was really learning—he was learning the ropes, which are complicated.And when they say, you know, his dad put him in the business, his dad did give him a million dollars, and, boy, that's great.But for that business, that is not a lot of money.It's more than nothing.And second, his dad did not train him for the business he eventually got in because his dad wasn't in that business. …

How important were the deals he got from the city government?And how did he get them?

I have no idea how he got them.He got them by applying for them, and he got them the way everybody else got them.I mean, he wasn't—now if you look at it in retrospect, we think Donald Trump was the only guy building during that period.He obviously wasn't the only guy building, and he wasn't the biggest builder.He was—in the '80s, he was a builder who was making his name, let's put it that way. He was—And when he got the Plaza and he fixed the Wollman Rink, that's probably the two things that really put him, let's say, put him on the map.

Trump’s Marriage to Ivana

What about Ivana?Talk a little bit about Ivana and the icon status of Donald and Ivana in New York at that time.

You know, Americans and New Yorkers are—love beautiful couples, beautiful young couples, beautiful young couples who have a story, whether it's acting or business success, great business success.It appeared as if—and it was true—that she was a contributor to his success, particularly her interest in the Plaza Hotel.Although she had an accent, she was very articulate, and she was very charming.And he tends to be more gruff, you know, more direct.So they were a great team when they would be interviewed together.And I mean, I know the marriage broke up, but when you would see them together, they seemed to be tremendously in love, and I think that captured the imagination and the interest of the people of New York.Nothing better than a love story built on a business empire growing and growing and growing, and they're sitting on the top of the empire.

Of course, and yes, it's a manifestation, it seems to me, of his and her ability to use the media, to protect and project that celebrity status, and embrace it for all of its good and all of its bad, I suppose.That's certainly the way it looks to us.

I mean, Donald Trump and the Trump Organization and Ivana were masterful at using the media.I mean, they were skilled at it.And I think one of the things that, at first at least, shocked him was the different nature of the relationship.I mean, he wasn't ready for how, by changing roles, the media that once loved him and adored him now would start seeing him as a particular target, particularly since he selected to be a Republican candidate.If Donald Trump had run as a Democrat, he would have faced far less problems.He would have been continued to be projected as a hero of some kind and protected against some of the bad stories that have come out. …

The Central Park Five

Let's talk a little bit about the Central Park Five, which he takes out that ad and he's very strong about what happens there and that the perpetrators needed to be punished.What did you think when you read that ad?

Well, I mean, it came—it came at a point where Central Park was so bad and so frightened— frightening.Not knowing the facts of the case in any kind of detail, it seemed to me like nothing different than 20 or 30 others that I saw from real estate people that would focus on crimes that were driving down the value of the city.I mean, I guess at the time I was U.S. attorney and I found the crime to be horrendous.But, you know, I, in my memory, I mix it in with a whole lot of other crimes that were taking place in the park.

Central Park, I mean, you would not let your daughter walk in Central Park after dark.If your wife was in Central Park after dark, you went in there and you got her out.And most men wouldn't walk in Central Park after dark.And the number of cases for this small area and this small precinct was horrendous.But worse than that, even if it were—if there were two shootings, one took place in the park and one took place on Union Square, the one on Central Park would be in the headlines; the one in Union Square would be on Page 50.Times Square and Central Park were the two places where the press would exaggerate the crime.By exaggerating, I mean give it more attention.They might not have made it worse than it was. …

Why do you think he took that ad out?What do you think was going on?

I have no idea.I could only speculate it was the same reasons why Bernie Mendik and all the other people that were heavy real estate people in the city were enormously concerned about crime and wanted to show people they were fighting back against it.Maybe at the time he was trying to sell a building to someone who was saying to him, "I'd never build in New York; there's too much damn crime in New York."And he wanted to show them you're going to fight back.

The real estate industry was in a lot of trouble in New York.New York depends on very, very large demand to deal with the high levels of real estate in terms of price and scarcity.People think price is a question of gouging.It's not. It’s a question of economics.It's a small piece of land where a lot of people want to live.If a lot of people don't want to live here, that whole empire collapses.

So crimes like that, that get covered all over the country, are deadly to the real estate and the hotel business, tourist business. …

Trump’s Move Into Politics

How does this happen to Donald Trump?How does Donald Trump the builder, Donald Trump the playboy, Donald Trump the reality-TV star on The Apprentice, how does this happen, Mr. Giuliani?

OK.I would—you know the thing that I would dispute of that description?He really wasn't the playboy he made himself appear to be.That was part of—that was part of the act.This is a guy who doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, and likes to go to bed at home at night.I mean, he'll travel three extra hours so he can be in his bed at night.So the playboy thing was a bit overdone. …But most of it's true.How does he make the transition?Because all along he was an avid reader and an avid—and an avid—had an avid interest in public affairs.When I was mayor, I had many more conversations with him about public affairs than his projects.I respected him because he was one of the few business developers that never bothered me.I turned him down for the biggest project in New York City, and of the five people bidding, he was my best friend of those five.And he never complained to me.It was like, almost like, you know, The Godfather.This is business; you make the right decisions.If you make the right decisions, I'll get enough that I'll be happy. …

'The Apprentice'

How much do you figure The Apprentice helped him become president of the United States?

Immensely. Immensely.

Tell me why. Tell me—

First of all, the ease with which he could present.You know, a lot of—a lot of candidates, no matter how long they're in politics, don't get over the stiffness.Gore never did; Romney never did; Nixon never did.You could sense in their presentation kind of a stiffness which gets translated into, they're not comfortable with people.And I think all three of them had that problem.

On the other hand, you can have someone like an Obama, a Kennedy, a Reagan, who just had a natural gift for communicating.And either he had a natural gift or he had a lot of practice at it, because that's what it became by the time he was running.And, even more important, he got to learn the television medium, how—I mean, probably he was the first president with really all that knowledge of the television medium.Some were good at it.Obama was good at it, and Reagan was masterful at it, but he was an actor.But most of them have a little trouble with the television medium.

But it couldn't have hurt that he had millions of people watching him every week either.

And he learned by trial and error.He did hundreds of shows, and he learned by trial and error.So by the time he's running for president, talking on the television is the same thing as talking at breakfast.And that was a great asset.

Another great asset is that he had built a brand and a name recognition.And it was associated on the left side with a few bad things, but it was mostly associated with good things.He seems like a quintessential American patriot.Loves America, loves the spirit of America.Was constantly saying it wouldn't happen anyplace else but America.Really important for a presidential candidate. …

The 'Access Hollywood' Tape

When the Access Hollywood moment happens, we've talked to everybody around that situation, and they all say all the establishment Republicans fled the building; nobody wanted anything to do with him that Friday afternoon and early evening.But there you were, five television appearances, I think, on his behalf.Why were you there?What was that moment like for you?Can you take us in?Did he ask you to do it?What were you thinking about what was going on that afternoon?

Well, of course, everybody—and everybody isn't quite everybody, but most people, both in and outside the campaign, thought it would end his candidacy.I listened to the words.We talked about it privately; I can't tell you that conversation.I thought back in my life, and I thought about being a baseball player, being in a lot of locker rooms; a golfer, being in a lot of locker rooms.You know, when I was a kid, I probably spent more time in a locker room than my bedroom.And I thought about the things that I will not admit we said.And I said to myself, this is unfortunate.He got caught saying what, if they want to be truthful, maybe not the same, but men say that.They talk that way.May be one of our failings.It may be wrong; it may be something we’ve got to work on to improve ourselves; may be something we should confess if we're Catholics.But to say this is like, ooh, this is the first time any man ever said this, was kind of ridiculous.

And I think he reacted to it that way, which is what I think made it go away.He reacted—he didn't lie about it.I mean, a lot of these characters will lie about it, say they were mis— they were trapped.He was doing it for fun.He was kidding around with [Billy Bush].He didn't really mean that stuff.… I mean, there were a lot of political explanations you could have given to run away from him.He admitted it, and he said it's locker room talk.

And what does that tell you about him?

It tells me about him that, number one, he's got honest answers to what he does.He's not—he's not a sneaky man who lives two or three different lives.He lives one life, and he has a very easy time finding the truth.And he'll tell it.It can hurtful or harmful, but he'll tell it.

Number two, it tells me he's able to be president.He can withstand, you know, having his shit bombed, and he's standing, and everybody else is underground.You need that in a president.

And number three, politically, I analyzed it better than they did.He had already been through things that I thought might take him out.The comment on McCain I thought might take him out because it was very early; he hadn't developed really the kind of—by the time we get to Bush, he already is preferred by, let's say, 40% of the American people, 45%.That's all you really need to be a competitive candidate nowadays, even going into the last day.He hadn't been rejected like Romney was and like Bush was.They got rejected last three weeks of the campaign, we knew they were going to lose.Him? He was always in it.He also had the most loyal supporters I've ever seen—more loyal than Reagan, more loyal than Clinton, more loyal than Obama.I mean, none of them got the crowds he got.And some of them were tremendously talented.Obama is tremendously talented, and Clinton is, and Reagan is.He would get four times their crowds, with eight times their devotion.So these people, they're not going to move off you.So he's going to go down five or six points, but he's not going to free fall.

We were getting him ready for a debate that weekend.So what I did was, I tried to calm them all down to focus on—my mother always taught me, some bad news would come in when I had to do my homework, and she'd say: "Forget about the bad news, and get your homework done.Then you can think about the bad news."And I had that discipline from 9/11 and from 80 other emergencies.So I said: "Let's forget that.Nobody leave.Tomorrow morning we'll talk about it.Let's get the debate preparation." …

The ‘Crisis Presidency’

Let me ask you one other question. ...He's the crisis president, Mr. Giuliani.He has been, you know, supported.He's had his level of support.But in these last few months, it's been incredibly challenging for him to pull it off.And once again the words “law and order,” “crackdown,” “do it,” “restore order” come back to Donald Trump.Talk about that a little bit, will you, where it's coming from, what is driving that, and who is he actually talking to?

Well, the last couple of months, you know, have been historic challenges to America.We never had a pandemic of that kind.And despite an enormously hostile media which will try to paint anything he does as a failure, he's gotten us through it.And I don't think people appreciate it, but they may in retrospect, how fast we had to react to something we didn't know about, which means all of them made mistakes.[Dr. Anthony] Fauci made mistakes, big ones; [Gov. Andrew] Cuomo made mistakes, big ones; …

… I think that the whole situation in—that happened to Mr. Floyd is jarring.I watched it again a night or two ago for a podcast that I'm doing, and I couldn't—I couldn't really—I had to edit it, and I couldn't sit through it.That was a very, very terrible event.And I think he's played his role as president about as best you can given the fact that there are people that will twist around everything he says and never give him the benefit of the doubt.The St. John's Church incident is a perfect incident.Every president I knew, every president I worked for, and every president I knew about does photo ops, and they do photo ops at time of tragedy.And they're done for the best of reasons: to lift morale.You don't want them to think of the president as being unable to handle it.And a picture is worth a thousand words.It used to be Michael Deaver’s saying when he ran Reagan.It's the same thing [David] Axelrod did with Obama.Their criticism of it was so disingenuous.

It was a good idea to go to that church.The night before when I heard that church was being attacked, I was really upset.I know the significance of that church.Every American president since Madison has worshiped there.I was there for two pre-inaugural services with Bush and Trump.It's in my heart.When my good friend and I heard it together, we were shocked!A president saying to his staff, "I'd like to take a walk over there and hold up a Bible”—

Even if it means clearing out those protesters, knowing it's on national television?

Here's what you don't know.The president has no idea what has to be done to get him from this block to that block.And if the president did have an idea of that, he wouldn't have time to be president.

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