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Rusty Bowers
Rusty Bowers served as Arizona’s speaker of the House of Representatives from 2019-23. He testified before the House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the U.S. Capitol and received a John F. Kennedy Profile in Courage award in 2022.
The following interview was conducted by Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on Oct. 20, 2023. It has been edited for clarity and length.
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Trump’s Campaign in Arizona
Going back to Election Day 2020, where are you?Did you vote in person?Who did you vote for? What was that day like?
I used mail-in ballot.We do a lot of that, have for 30-plus years in Arizona, and do it very well.We had been out, prior to the election, doing walking.I'm not super-fanatical about last-week things, but I knew—I already knew what the outcome was going to be.It was going to be—it was curious how it would go.But through the day, 7:00 at night is when things really heat up, when the polls close and we start getting the early voting first.
There had been some chatter, because of previous election challenges on Election Day, that this was going to be likewise, and we were hopeful that it would go well.When the polls started coming in and immediately Mr. [Joe] Biden showed a substantial lead, then the scuttlebutt began on the radio and other things, that, “What's going on?”; “Boy, what a blowout this is going to be.”But there had already been some discussion about, was this all on the up-and-up?And just generally, not specific people.
But it was–Then the Republican returns start picking up later through the night.I went to sleep about 10:00, and I was losing.I was running for the speaker, at the same time running for my seat, and I had concerns about those who would stay in the fold and who I needed for the speaker's race, because I was going up against Mr. [Mark] Finchem, and I really didn't know what his impact was going to be on people.But it looked like, when I went to bed, that I was going to lose, because my candidates were behind by substantial margins.And so I thought, OK, well, I think I might pull out mine.
And when I woke up in the morning, I thought, OK, I've lost an election before and I lived through it.I didn't lose any more hair than I had previously.So I turned on the TV and watched the tape at the bottom going by, and one of my supporters that was losing by, in a rural district, by 1,000-plus votes was ahead by 1,000-plus votes.That was impressive, so I kept watching.And then the next one was ahead, and the next one was ahead.And I'm thinking, wow, I won.But in the back of my head was the nagging thought, I wonder where the president is.And he still came up behind, which was, politically speaking, after the first debate, when I saw how he acted, I knew we were going to lose because of the demographic that we were tracking and trying to aim our ads and activities towards as a caucus and others, towards women 18 to 35 with small children, professional, educated, they had not voted for the president earlier, in his earlier race, and we were hoping to get them back.And from our work, we saw that in Arizona, that needle was starting to move until the first debate.And so when I saw that debate, I just turned to my wife and said, “Honey, he just lost.”
And so, going through the day, gratified to see that my supporters had won, and I'd lost one but picked up one, so I was still where I was.And that's kind of how the day went.You know, you start talking to other people—“What do you think's going on?”—and scuttlebutt and chatter.
But you knew even before Election Day that the way he was running the campaign in Arizona was likely going to lead to him not able to—
No, not in Arizona.… He had the roadshow going on in Arizona in a big way.I mean, they put on big rallies, and I was—you know, there I was, up there on the stage with him.
But I would see the same people at all the rallies.And so people would say, “How could Biden be ahead?Did you go to the rallies?”And I said, “Yeah, and so did you, to more than one, I'll bet.”And they said, “Yeah, I was at Yuma, and I was up in Prescott.”I said, “That's the problem.”Big rally, big show.But where's the street work, you know?Where's the door to door?
And so that was kind of our political take.But he, you know, it wasn't any different than how he had done it the first time.But it was the national—it was his debate on TV nationally.I knew that the people we were in Arizona trying to get, they would not—they would not vote for that.They were not going to put up with that again.
… As you mentioned, you were a supporter of the president during the campaign that year, so I want to get a sense of your bona fides in the party and your support for President [Donald] Trump.
Well, I'm not a huge party guy, frankly.I go to my district meetings.The party is kind of—I don't want to say overly cultic, but it gets a little bit like we're all in a circle kissing each other, you know.But I agreed with the platform, which is the important part of the party for me, which was what were the principles or platform ideas that we believed in?
I was a Ted Cruz guy before, in round one with President Trump.I didn't like him; I thought he was caustic and bombastic.And I liked Cruz; he was thoughtful.But I was a supporter.… After Cruz lost in our primary and you had to fish or cut bait, for me the sale was the Supreme Court.That's where I was.
I wanted to have a chance on issues that we've been working on, not just social but regulatory issues.And I knew there was litigation and activity in the water arena and waters of the United States, and that's my big deal is natural resources, and I was hopeful that we would have a more tight, more constitutionally-oriented view on those issues.
So party-wise, the party came; the party left; the party would show up; everybody would pat each other on the back.But I wasn't a big aficionado.I didn't try to run for a party position or work myself up through ranks, and I'm not very big on talk, you know: Do what I say, not what I do.… I'm certainly not a fluttering angel.
So I wasn't a big party guy, and the party rarely helped me.I got very few signatures through my party apparatus.I had my own friends and my own network, and we would do our own thing.
And so—I don't know if that answers your question.
Yeah, no, it does.It helps me to understand you as you're going into this.And you are maybe not enamored of him, but you're a supporter of the president during that campaign.
When people asked me who I'd vote for, I said, “I'm going to be voting for Trump.”And I didn't– I would tell them.They’d say, “Well, why are you voting for him? He's such a jerk.”And I’d say, “Yeah, he is.But his Supreme Court list that I saw, and knowing some of those candidates, if he sticks with that list, we will have a chance for some turnaround, some longevity.”So you know, that was it.
Were you surprised when he started to claim victory?It's as early as election night.You were asleep, and you woke up and have heard the president said, “Frankly, we did win the election.”
I thought, well, that's true to form.I mean, after three years, I'm getting a little loose in my head, but I would think he's acting just like he always acts, and you usually speak through your Twitter feed rather than intelligibly in public.But he I thought was just doing what he’s always done.I said, “I know the guys who run the election in our state, and I trust them.”And we had a history of pointing fingers at our elected officials when it came time to run elections and blaming them when many times it was outside challenges they had to face with, lack of funding or requirements that we put on them.
But I trusted what was coming out, and I didn't see the conspiracy.But that kind of took off rather quickly, and it seemed to have a growing set of wings.And yet there was no parallel improvement in the evidence that was available to us.They talked about these big spikes of votes, how that's impossible to have that many votes.And I would think, well, wait a minute, we're not a show-up-and-vote state; we're a vote-early state.And Trump was telling everybody, “Don't vote early; the postal system is rigged.There's crooks all the way over.Don't do it.Take your ballot in the day of; vote the day of.”
And yet, on the other side, the Democrats were pounding the pavement and doing all the things that are done in politics and getting groups of elderly and people who have their particular stamp of approval that supports people in that district.They would have them out and doing the road work.And I'm saying, they're the ones who said vote early, so of course you've got early voters that are predominantly Democrat.
And then we don't count.We don't count until the day of, but we vote for 30 days up till a three-day gap before voting day, so if these are heavy on the front end, and it's first-in/first-out, first ballot in gets counted first, then of course it's going to be heavy Democrat.We did notice that the Republican votes started tallying up, up, up, up, getting tighter, tighter as the day went on.And I thought, well, maybe I'm wrong; maybe he'll pull it out.But it turned out that he didn't quite make it.
Early Allegations of Fraud in Arizona
In those first early days, Arizona is one of the places people are paying attention to.There's the Sharpiegate; there's crowds outside.
The Sharpie thing.I thought, oh, come on.I held that paper.I'm an artist, for crying out loud; I know how to use Sharpies.And yeah, you can't put a piece of regular paper on top of like, notebook paper and expect it not to bleed, but to bleed through and destroy a whole ballot?I've held those ballots.That's heavy paper.So, I mean, it was like, OK, somebody's just looking for a reason.
And I started getting the calls during that day and following days.My favorite, of course, was the Korean Airlines plane that landed at Sky Harbor, and here's a picture of the plane, and here's a picture of the truck with a pallet of ballots in duffel bags that came from Korea.It's obviously invented.And then it was the Nicolás Maduro, whoever the dictator was at the time down in Venezuela, that he's part of it.And the satellite link is in.I mean, they just—it was like spontaneous generation of conspiracy theories.
And everybody's saying, “You've got to stop this; you've got to [stop this].”I got thousands, thousands of emails.I have some examples that you probably won't want to show, but just vicious, vicious.“You've got to put a stop to this.”
So when people would give me something legitimate, we decided we would go find out.We would go down to the counting center.And I couldn't tell you the exact date.In fact, it was, it was Christmas Eve.We finally were able to go down and spend hours.With three or four of my staff, attorney, chief, our majority leader and I think our deputy chief, we went down.They said, “You can't come in,” to me, “and Ben [Toma] can't come in”—because we were electeds—“but everybody else can come in past the glass,” into the kind of the counting room, because it was isolated, and no elected official or somebody who was on the ballot could go in the room.
And they would talk to us through the glass, or somebody in the room would point out where the tabulators were and how it was moving and how all this stuff about how people were rigging the ballots and then dumping in new ballots.They just showed us the impossibility of it.
I had known our previous recorders—very, very honorable people—and had seen one who told me, “This election went off perfectly.We know we had it down perfect, our system.And we're always looking for ways to improve it, but you can rest assured, they did this thing right.”And that gave me a—because I know them.I've known them for—I've known them for 15 years, more than that, 20-plus.Anyway, I’m rambling.
A Call with Trump and Giuliani
… Let me ask you about the famous phone call.… I want to know about the phone call but also what leads up to you receiving this phone call from the president and from Rudy Giuliani.Had you expected them to be calling you?
No. That was–All of our decision-making, Karen [Fann, Arizona Senate president] and I, of how we would work through this process of all this huge, vocal, angry, you know, call the legislature in, fix this thing, change this out, all this pressure—and it was pronounced, lots of people coming by our house and other officials' homes and threatening them and threatening us and wanting.I said, “Hey, if people don't trust the system, and they want to listen, let's figure out a way to have that happen.And if it's to have an audit, great.”
So we had talked about having an audit, but I said, “If you're going to do an audit, let's go get Price Waterhouse; let's go spend some money; let's do it right.I don't want some yo-yo exercise out in the deserts of Arizona. Let's do it right.”And as it turned out, they got somebody akin to Ali Baba and the digital Power Rangers to come and do this thing, and it was a total farce.And it spent a lot of time and a lot of money.
Upshot: All this stuff was brewing and popping, and demands and phone calls, and threats from people in and out of government, mostly out, and from our local political figures, who were so totally disenchanted that I wasn't more angry and making more demands, whatever.
And then I went to church on my way home.In fact, I sang at church.It was a great meeting.Parked in the driveway.I had a Bluetooth on in our little Prius, and Karen Fann.I said, “Oh, honey, I’ve got to take this.”And she said, “OK, I'll head on in.”So I pushed the button; Karen says, “Have you talked to the White House?”And I said, “No, am I supposed to?”She says, “They're trying to get in touch with us.Don't make—don't take any decisions without me.We should be sticking together if there's something that we're being asked to do, so stay in touch with me.”I said, “No problem.OK, if they call.”And she said, “OK, let me know.”Boom, she hung up; the White House was on the Bluetooth, on the little screen.
And I said, “OK, well, hello.”And, “Will you hold for the president?”“Sure. I mean, why not?”And so Giuliani comes on, and “Mr. Speaker, how are you?,” you know, the old-pat-on-the back, glad-handing by telephone thing.And I said, “I'm doing fine. What's up?”And he said, “Well, the president's going to be on here pretty quick.We want to talk to you about what's happening in Arizona, across the country.”
And then the president comes on.“Mr. Speaker, we watch you.”I don't know who said it, but it was that old line, you know: “I've been watching you from afar.”And I said, “Yeah, well, OK.Well, congratulations.”In my mind, I'm being a little bit irreverent, and I said, “Well, thank you.Everything's good, thanks.What's up? How can I help?”They said, “Well,” he says, “there's all this fraud across the country, just enormous fraud in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and Georgia and in Arizona.”And I'm thinking, OK, now you're talking Arizona, all right.“So what fraud is that?”And he says, “Rudy,” and he passed off to Rudy.And Rudy said, “Well, we have, like, 14,000 dead people voted in your, in your state, and 4,000 ballots were stolen from the military mail-in, and 200,000 illegal aliens or illegal votes cast by illegal citizens were voted on or found.”And he listed off some other large numbers of populations of people who moved.And I'm thinking, that's not illegal; you can vote and move.I mean, OK, so what?And I don't care if you vote by mail, as long as you vote, send in your bona fide ballot.
So I'm thinking these things.And finally I said, “OK, hold on.What? What? OK, so what?What is it you're—what do you want me to do?”And they said, “Well, we would very much like to have a committee meeting in your state to hear about this.”And I'm thinking, hmm, who else do I know who's been asking for committees?And that would be Mr.—well, one of my colleagues in the legislature, and more than one, in fact, both those who had just been elected elsewise to the Senate and as well as in my own body.And they'd been saying, “We’ve got to get to the bottom of this, so we want a committee.”And I said, “To what end?To what end do you want me to call the—?”I said—and these are not like, this is not an order.And I hope so.I've been told that there are five lines from the White House, and all of them are taped, and so if it really was from the White House, I'm thinking, you know—I'm thinking right now, me talking to you—wouldn't it be great to have that tape?I would love to hear that tape, because the president has characterized that tape much differently than I have.And it would be so fun to play it and even to be in the same room with him when it played, which may happen.Who knows?
But the upshot is, I said, “To what end?To what end, Rudy?”And I said—oh, first I said, “Rudy, have you got the names of these people who voted?Do you have the names of the dead people who voted?”He goes, “Yes.”“And do you have the names of the people whose ballots were stolen?”“Yes.”“And do you have the names of the 200,000 illegals who voted in our election?”“Yes.”“Rudy, you've got their names?”“Yes.”I said, “I want those names.”And the president says, “Rudy, give the man what he wants.Give him what he wants.”He says, “Yeah, we've got them, Mr. President.I'll get them to him.”
I said, “Now we're being real serious here.You've made all these declarations, but I want the names, and I want you to give them to me.”And he said, “We will.Give him what he wants, Rudy.”And I said, “Great, OK.But to what end?You've said you want me to call them back into the business.You know I can't call them back in.I don't have the authority to call somebody back in alone.They have to vote to come back in if the legislature calls the session, and it's a two-thirds majority vote.There's only half of us, plus one.How are you going to get the Ds to do that?”And he says, “Well, just call in whoever you want.”I said, “Wait, wait.Rudy, there's a legal way to do this, and you know that I took an oath to my Constitution, and I'm going to keep it.I'm not going to break the law to have some meeting and say it's official.I can't do that,” etc.
And that theme then moved to the surface: “I took an oath, Rudy.”And then he says—and I said, “But to what end?”And he says, “Well, if we can show in an official committee that there's enough doubt about the vote of Mr. Biden, his win, that you can vote to not certify the Biden electors and to put in the president's electors.”
And I said, “OK, that's a new one on me.Now we're going somewhere that I'm very uncomfortable with.And I took an oath.I'm not going to play with the very law I swore to uphold to do something here.Rudy, which of the constitutions do you want me to throw out of my oath?The national?My own state constitution?The statutes of my state that I swear to uphold?Which of those am I supposed to throw out?”
And he says, “Well, you should always follow the national Constitution.That trumps everything.”I said, “Great.Well, if you're talking this and I'm asking you for proof, I've got to have the proof.And my lawyers have got to look at this new thing you just came up with.”He says—earlier to that, he'd said, “A very high-placed official in the Republican legislature of your state has told us about this law that allows this to happen, an arcane law.”And I said, “Seriously? What law is that?”He says, “Well, I'm not an expert in Arizona election law, but I'm given to understand by this person—” I said, “I'm kind of curious; I'm kind of a high-ranking official in the Republican legislature.”And he said, “Well, we were just given that information.”
And I said, “Well, OK, I've got an attorney, and I've got some really good attorneys, and we're going to put the two of you guys together and see about this so-called arcane law, if that's even possible.But I’ve got to have proof before we do anything.But here, let me get you his number.”
And I pull out my iPhone and I can barely even text, and I said, “Mr. President, I'm no good with one of these, and you have a little more experience than I do.I can't even tweet, but I think I can push this and get the number of my lawyer, and I'll give it to you right now, and you guys can call him and talk about this, because now we're going somewhere I am not comfortable dragging my state through.”
That was the sentiment of my words.And I said, “But watch, I'll be telling my grandchildren someday that while I was trying to get my lawyer's number, I hung up on the president of the United States.”And that's exactly what I did.
I hung up on him trying to get [Arizona House of Representatives General Counsel Andrew] Pappas's phone number, and I hung up on him.And Rudy calls back; the president said, “Well, go for it. Go for it.”I said, “OK, here we go.”And I hung up on him.
So he calls back, says, “The president's a great guy.He's laughing; he thinks that's pretty funny.”I said, “Well, actually, you know, that is pretty funny, and now I get something to tell the kids about.But Rudy, I am absolutely dead serious.I want that proof on my desk.”And he said, “I'll get it to you.”I said, “Fantastic. You bring me the proof, we talk.”And so we hung up.And that was kind of how it went.
What was their demeanor on the call?Was it chummy? Was it threatening?
… They never said, “If you don't do this, X will happen.”Nothing was ever intimated like that.And I think it was kind of light.As I've talked to you, if you call that light, that was light in political talk.I'd say, “That's a new one,” etc.And the president was kind of playing the good cop and Rudy was kind of the bad cop.You know, he's keeping Rudy in line and doing his thing.I never felt threatened.
Wait, was this the conversation—
If he had, you know, that would have been different.I mean, I would have felt– I would have thought differently than I was thinking.
Was this the conversation where Rudy says, “Aren't we all Republicans here?”
He did mention that once.He said, “You know, we're Republicans; we're playing on the same team.”But he didn't push it like he did the second time, where he really used that; he used that more than once in the meeting at the Senate.
And when you say, “You're asking me to do something against my oath," or "I'm not going to break my oath,” that sounds like an argument to me.I'm wondering what was that exchange like when you invoked your oath and the constitution of the state and the federal Constitution.
Well, I wasn't laughing, I can tell you that.I flat-out said, “You're asking me to break my oath.I swore an oath.I'm not going to break it, period.Not going to break it.”Now, the point was, “If you can show me legitimately—here are the names; here are the people who voted; here's how they voted; here's a video—you show me proof of fraud, fraud's different.Fraud's constitutionally proscribed that you don't get to commit fraud in an election and walk away.But that was kind of the fulcrum point.I wasn't getting it.He was proving that he had it and asking me to do this wild scheme that I had never heard of.And so I was serious.I wasn't laughing when I told him, “I'm not doing that.”
You said at the beginning, were you saying that it was the president who came on and said, “There's fraud all over the country”?
Yes, he did. But he did not—
Tell me what he said, because I was a little confused about whether it was Trump or that was Giuliani.
The president initially laid out the broad claim of fraud across the country and named different states, including my own.And it was Giuliani that honed in on the Arizona fraud, specifically X, Y and Z.So the president kind of introduced the fraud thing as the legitimate or the justification for this phone call and for what was about to happen, was to address this fraud.That was how I understood it.
And then Rudy got down to the brass tacks of what the fraud was and by whom and where or who the parties were that were conglomerated into groups of fraud, fraudulent voters.
And when they talk about the legislature changing the certification of the electors, do you know what that means in practical—
Do I know what that means?
Yeah, I mean, at that moment, can you tell us what that means?
Look, for them to say to me, “Yeah, we just want you to throw out those electors and put in Trump's,” I'm thinking, have I gone to another planet?I mean, it's like, what?I'm not going to do that.I mean, I wanted him to win; OK, so what?I'm not going to cheat. I'm not going to cheat to win. What's that?
And that, I mean, that's why I said, “We're not playing here.You're asking me to throw out Biden's win, and I'm saying, there's fraud?Show me the fraud, but you've got to prove it.I'm not going to just do it because—I'm not going to call some committee because you say there's fraud.You're going to show me the fraud before I said, ‘OK, this has a legitimacy that requires me to talk to my president of the Senate,’ and we talk to our other leaders, and we say, ‘What are we going to do?,’and then we start talking about our pathway.It's not just willy-nilly chuck it out and go.”
And evidently in Georgia, they did get to a committee.They did get somebody who'd say, “Yeah, that's good enough for me.”But it wasn't good enough for me.It might have been good enough for that guy, but it wasn't good enough for me, because I'm not going to put Arizona through it.Didn't then at least; can't now.It doesn't matter.But I wasn't going to do it.Wasn't going to be us in the circus show in the middle of the desert. …
Oh, well, I can postulate on what a great guy I am, but I wasn't going to do it.
“Did you bring me the proof?”
Did you ever get that evidence?Because the idea was they were going to follow up, right, with the names.
Of course I did.Oh, no, stop the presses.“I brought the proof.Can you hand me that?”I'm afraid to move; the mic might blow up.“OK. Here in my hot little hand I have the proof.It even has its own little package, the proof.”This is what, a year and a half later Boris Epshteyn, through Mark Finchem, finally provided me as the proof that would justify me throwing out my constitution.This is it.Want me to read it?All 100-plus pages.
No, it's not the proof, but it was what they purported to be sufficient, which was a term paper by my colleague Mr. Finchem on this plenary power of the legislature to make up the law in times of question.And then a couple of things from John Eastman, and then something from Rob Natelson, a professor up in Montana and a committee hearing transcript with my congressman discussing that it was all right for a state to question, which it is.The state has its rights in this process, and then 100 routing sheets for ballot numberings.So you register the ballots coming into a counting center, and then you register them moving to another location, etc.;100 of those that were incomplete.Like they might lack out of several signatures one signature or two signatures.And that's the proof.
It's not proof, but that was supposedly later going to be proof then.That wasn't proof at the time, which would have been laughable at the time.
But did you ever get the names?Because you wanted the names that they said that they had.
Are you serious?
I mean, I want you to say whether you got the names.It's not that I don't know the answer to this.
Mike, no, the answer is, what they said they would give me—in fact, that was the reason that I walked out of the meeting with Giuliani's team when they came to the Senate, which was another fun experience.It was interesting, and I'm glad I had it.But when it was my turn, I just said, “Did you bring me the proof?”And he said, “What?”I said, “Do you remember our phone call when you said you were going to bring me the proof?”And he said, “Oh, yeah.”I said, “Did you bring it?”And he turned to Jenna Ellis, and he says, “Do you have the proof?”And she said, “Yeah.”“Well, can we see it?”She leans over and fumbles through her briefcase and says, “Oh, no, I don't have it here.It must be at the hotel room.”And I said, “OK, time out.You don't have the proof.”And he says, “No, but we'll get it to you.”I said, “Thank you very much.Hey, I’ve got to go.See you later.”And we got up and left.
I never got the proof.I never got the names.It's all bull.That never happened.And it's the 2000 Mules [Dinesh D’Souza film] fiasco and all that other arranged and paid-for trash.It never happened.It's all been a charade.And to take the ignorant who are not willing or not able to know any different and lead them through this thing reminds me of some other horrible things that have happened historically where people got led around by the Pied Pipers.And it's a tragedy.
We're living through it, hopefully.But it's a tragedy that was foisted on a whole bunch of people, some of them to this day walking around believing it.
So let—let's talk about that meeting that's on Dec. 1, I believe.What leads up to it?
… They came to town.First Mr. Finchem was pushing for me to hold a—let him, because he was my legitimate federal, federalism chair, and I'd given him that post.As the speaker, I can name the chairpeople of committees, and I'd given him that post.And as the chair, he wanted to hold a committee and get to the bottom of this and show the proof to the world.
And I said, “No, I'm not going to let you.”And we'd had other meetings about it.And that became quite a deal that I wouldn't let my chairman hold the committee meeting.And then he said, I've got to—it's fish or cut bait time.I've got to find another venue if you're not going to let me do this in the—now, he's saying this through other people up until a meeting with him, where he had asked me to have this.
And then we had a face-to-face, and I told him I was not going to have a circus, because I'd seen what was happening so far, and that wasn't going to happen in the House of Representatives.I wasn't going to let it happen.And if he didn't like that, we could have our little—I was a little heated, which I'm not proud of, but I was a little heated.
And so, upshot: He went off and had his thing at the hotel and held—they claimed that it was a legitimate legislative hearing, and they had people on the hearing, on the dais who were—who are representatives-elect and others who were senator-elects [<i>sic</i>].And I'm saying, is this a joint hearing?I mean, I thought you could only have a hearing of the House members.
Anyway, it was quite a show.And Mr. Giuliani waxed eloquent in his claims.The next day, we had our hearing.“Hearing”: That's the term of art, obviously.We had a meeting.I had come to work at the House and was told that Mr. Giuliani was meeting with the Senate, in the Senate, and I was asked by the Senate if I wouldn't come and join them.
So it was a brief chat about, I said, “I don't want to go to that.What are we doing?”And they said, “Well, in deference to the Senate, you should probably go.”And I said, “OK, I'll go. I'll be a good boy.”
And so we went.We walked in, and they had already been talking for sometime.Some of my staff were there.And there was a row of people and Giuliani and Jenna Ellis; I recognized them on the other side of a large table that's in the caucus room.And I sat down on the opposite side while two senators, Sen. [Michelle] Ugenti-Rita and Sen. [Vince] Leach were working Mr. Giuliani over to a fare-thee-well.They were really grilling him.
And I just thought, hey, this is kind of fun.I'm going to sit here and watch for a while.And they worked him.“You're going to ask to do what?And you did this?And you expect us to do that?”And he was saying yes.And then he used the famous line: “You know, I thought I'd get a little better reception here, a little more friendly.I thought we were all Republicans; that we would, you know, try to help each other out.”And they just kept right at it, about what his ask was that we would have this hearing and then that we would throw out the electors.
So they kind of worked that for a while, and then somebody mentioned, or I mentioned, “Hey, I think you need to—we can't just call this thing.We need Ds to do this.”And the Senate president said, “I don't even think I can get all my—ours to show up to vote on coming back into session.”
Then they finally got done, and that's when I asked him for the proof, and he didn't have it.So I said, “Well, I'm done. See you later,” and walked out.
That's the shortcut synopsis of a rather heated meeting.And again, in that meeting, he'd said, “I thought we were all Republicans here.We should be trying to help and be—I thought I'd get a little friendlier reception to my request,” etc.And I reiterated, “We don't have a circus here. I'm not putting on no stinking circus.”
So—well, I act like I'm a tough guy, but I think I was pretty straightforward to him.
And that's also the meeting where he says, “We don't have the evidence, but we have lots of theories.”What did he say?
Yeah! Yeah!They were throwing out all these ideas, the conspiracy type things or whatever, just mentioning them, not focused on a litany of them.And he said—you know, he was kind of frustrated with us all, and he said, “You know, we've got a lot of theories; we just don't have the evidence.”And when I heard him say that, I turned, I don't know if it was—was it to my chief or to my attorney, our House or majority attorney, and I said, “Did he just say what I thought he said?”And they all looked at me like the same thing: “Whoa. Yeah, he just said that.”
And later, we said—when I left, we met out in the lobby of the Senate, and I said, “Did he really say that?”And they said, “Yeah, he did.”Good grief.Man, that was telling.You know. Whatever.But yeah, he did say it.
He is asking you in that room to overturn an election, and he makes a statement like that.Is that a turning point in that meeting when he says that?
Oh, no, no, no.That wasn't the turning point.That was just a—that was like a rocket's-red-glare moment, like wow, you've got to be kidding.This is like a—this is the clown show.They're out hunting.They're trying to find something, and they're wanting us to participate in this.And he says that?Holy moly, we can't do this stuff….
Anyway, it was impactful, but in the wrong way, as far as he was trying to achieve.
You said you respected Rudy Giuliani, “America's mayor,” after 9/11—
Yeah, I did.
—a former prosecutor.And then to see him like that, what is it for you?
Well, you know, I think one of my staff even took a picture of … Giuliani and his peers.And they—it was like a cartoon of himself, and that was—it was sad.And when I think about it later, and have thought of it many times, wow, how sad.What has to happen that you'd get to that point that you could do this?
Watching January 6 Unfold
… And as you're watching the images of Jan. 6?
Have I watched any?
No, as you are, what are you thinking as you see that happen, given all of this that you've lived through and experienced?
Well, it's not like you get– you know, I've had three years of images that I've seen over and over.Less now, but at the time, seeing them climbing up on the Dome and on the walls and then breaking out the windows, and I really got a dose when I went back to Jan. 6 and they showed the videos from all the different angles.
The first news reports were saying that there was this kind of a little peaceful scuffle and that their people were expressing their constitutional rights, and it was peaceful.And then when I see it, I'm thinking, what?What nation is that peaceful in?I thought, that's awful.And then they said, “Well, see here? The cops are inviting them to come in.”That isn't what's happening at all.And how, again, the spin, everything is a spin.
And so, my opinion on seeing those was not in line with anything that was legal or ethical or thoughtful.
So I think it was– it was upsetting to me.It was upsetting that it was characterized differently than it was, that this was nothing.When I saw inside the terror that was caused, the damage to individual police members, people beating people with a flagpole of the American flag being used to beat a police officer.And I'm saying, “This is <i>my</i> side?No, this isn't my side; they're their own side.”
And it was very distressing, as it probably was for most people who saw that, especially when you get a collage of what's happening all around the Capitol and underneath the Capitol and in the doors and inside the Capitol.There was a lot of heroism shown there by people protecting the Capitol.
Testifying in Front of the January 6 Committee
… I'm just curious about what it was like to be—to talk to them and then to find yourself in front of the committee and testifying.
The thing I most remember is my counsel saying that they'd received a call from the investigators of the January 6 Commission and that they would like to talk to me.I said, “Look, man, we're trying to—you’ve got the drill.Right outside that door is a rebellious House of Representatives, and we're trying to get that organized, and there’s COVID-19, and we've got a budget to get done.And I would just—can I take a phone call?What can I do?You know, what do I do that way?
We were trying to keep the House, move the House through our own little insurrections towards getting a budget and other things done, and it was later in the session; the session had been cranking for sometime.And so I said, “So, if you can, just beg off for a while.”
And then the counsel, my counsel came back, and I think it was like three or four times, until finally he said, “Mr. Speaker, they really want to talk to you.”And I said, “I really don't want to go; I have to get this thing done.”He said, “Mr. Speaker, they really want to talk to you.”And I said, “I'm getting a different message here.I'm understanding that there might be a paper that might come along with their—” I said, “If they're subpoenaing me, I'm going.I'm not going to play that game.But I'm just asking them, please can I get this thing done, and then I'm happy.”And he just came back and said, “No, they need you, and they need you on this day.”I said, “Well, OK. I got a subpoena. Off we go.”So that's kind of how it went.I don't know who called first, though.
… So what was it like to go into the committee with all the cameras, a sort of historic moment like that?
Well, I had prepped myself, trying to read over notes and stuff that we had prepared.I didn't want to– I am intimidated by travel.I love to have someone assist me at the airport, I mean, everything.But they said, “We'll get a taxi for you.”I said, “Where is this place?”They said, “Well, open your window, and there's the Capitol.”All right, I got it.I’ve got my bearings.And it's just kind of on the other side, on the I think the south side of the Capitol.“I think I can do that. I'll just walk over.”“No, we'll send a cab. You never know what you're going to run into.”I said, “Well, they don't know me either. I'll just walk.”
So I walked over there.It was a beautiful day.You walk by; there's President Grant up there on his horse.He was covered up by construction.Got to the building.The guy who had been tasked to take care of me was outside, recognized me.I got through the [metal] detector, and there's [Rep.] Andy Biggs standing there.
And he said, “Rusty.”I said, “Congressman, how are you?”And we shake hands.And I said, “How can I help you?”He says, “Oh, I just wanted to come and say hello.”And I'm thinking, right.I know I'm cynical, OK?I've been through it.
I went on, and we went into a waiting room, and I was intrigued because of my art stuff.They had a beautiful lithograph of Abraham Lincoln, whom I admire, along with many other Americans admire.And, you know, other people came in.Shaye came in, Ms. Moss, [a Georgia election worker].1They were wonderful people.And they really went through it, man alive.
1
New York Times: Election Worker Defamed by Giuliani Recounts Emotional Toll
And we got to know each other.It was fun to meet Mr. [Brad] Raffensperger and hear each other, kind of small talk about what they'd gone through.And then a guy walks into me and says, “We’ve got about 10 minutes, and then, Mr. [Gabriel] Sterling, Mr. Raffensperger.Mr. Bowers, you'll be coming with me, and they'll give you the instructions.”
And then he walks in, he says, “We just got this text.”Well, no, I got a call from Mr. Pappas, my counsel, that there was a tweet sent out from the president, President Trump, about you.I said, “You're kidding.”He says, “Yeah," and he read it.And I was, of course, disappointed.How sad.
And then I looked up, and a guy walked in with a printed copy and said, “This tweet was just published and it's going to be given to the committee, about you.”2And I read it again.He said, “Have you seen this?”I said, “Well, I just—counsel just sent it to me.”And he said, “What's your reaction?”I said, “Well, half of it's true, and half of it's a lie.”Says, “Because we're going to get—they're going to ask you about this tweet.”I said, “OK, well, whatever,” you know.
I had already found—when I had been back in Washington, as I mentioned, I keep a diary, poorly.And it's not a diary.It's a religious diary about things that I hope my kids will find important as I pass away.But in it, tangentially I put down all the politics, some mention.
But I remembered having written down some thoughts in my diary about all of this happening when our Capitol got invaded—our own, then the Capitol—other things, and the attacks on me.I kind of thought about things, and at the time, I thought, that really, it's amazing that I wrote that.But I couldn't find them.
So when I came, I thought, well, I had my to-do list book, so I brought it.I couldn't find my diary that day.Flying into Houston, I said, “Well, I'll go over my to-do—you know, just make the trip, instead of twiddling my thumbs, I'll look at things to do.”And as I went through my to-do book, I come on Lyle Rapacki's name, written, scribbled in, in a page of notes.And I thought, Lyle Rapacki?That's the note; that's the page with Giuliani.
And then there it was, all of my notes, more detailed, of the day of and the day after, retrospectively, reading through all those notes.And then some other thoughts.And then I found the passage that I'd written kind of baring my soul to myself as to what all this meant, and I'd photographed it and sent it to Pappas.Then I told him, “I found the diary.I found the notes.It wasn't in my diary; it was in another book.”You know, got down to it.
And then when he read it, he called before I got on the next plane out of Houston and said, “I'm sending this to the committee.”And I said, “Great.”Before I got on the plane, he texted back, and [he] said, “They want you to read this.”And I said, “Oh, well, I certainly wrote it, so I will.”And so, when we got there, that was one of the things that I had, was my little black book.
Going in the room, we walked down through the hall and through people, and there's lots of people in the hallways, and then guards, and then there's a doorway.And it's a little, tiny room.I'm thinking, OK, how big is this room?I can kind of see through the door that there's the edge of the dais and a door where they come out, evidently onto the dais.
Then I walk in the room, and I'm thinking, oh, my word, this is one big room.And there were just—prior to that, I had never watched a committee meeting.I'd never watched one afterwards.I'd never seen the room in TV.I'd seen rooms on TV of committee meetings, but I'd never watched any of these committee meetings.I purposely did not want to watch them so I wouldn't be colored one way or the other.I just wanted to be straight up.
So I'm like, wow.And then they said, “You'll be sitting here,” and there's 10 million photographers all jammed together, jostling in front of us, and all these reporters behind us, rows of them.And I'm just a little boy thinking back.And I think of a photograph—I've got it in my phone—of me, three years old with little bib overalls and a flannel shirt and Keds tennis shoes, and a sucker sucking in my mouth, asleep in the back of a wood-floored pickup truck, holding my graham crackers, asleep.And I see that picture of me and I go, “What are you doing here?”And it was—it was surreal.
We sat down, and I'd already met the two gentlemen to my left.And I tried to get my notes out.And then in walked the committee in order and sat on the dais, and I'm trying to maintain composure and not run screaming off down the Mall, down towards the Lincoln Memorial.
But I saw Liz Cheney, and she was looking at me, and that kind of calmed me down.It kind of gave me some—that thing where you know it's coming at you, and you just get ready and take it, whatever it is.
So they started the committee, and it was—the chairman was very formal, and I was impressed by his formality.I didn't—he ran a good committee, and I didn't follow the rules of committee hearings.I bypassed the chair too many times and talked directly to Mr. [Adam] Schiff.
But we went through the committee and tried to tell the truth.I didn't <i>try</i> to tell the truth—I told the truth.And then we took a little break and went out and then came back, and I think 20 more minutes or so of me, and then to the others.I can't remember the timelines, but—
And then I had my say.And I wasn't trying to flower it up, wasn't trying to be anything other than just Rusty, the little boy with his Keds tennis shoes.
What did it mean to you after all you had been through to be able to swear an oath to tell the truth, because you'd been questioned by so many people over this time, and to be in a venue like that, and to be able to tell your story?
Right there is a pin, and that's a Duty to God pin.And that's peculiar to the faith of Boy Scouts that their faith can design a pin for them to wear, to remind them of the oath, of the Scout oath: “On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country.”And so here I am.
I've been asked that many times as a politician, that I put down that I was an Eagle Scout and that I had four sons.All my sons were Eagle Scouts.And how did that qualify me to serve?What was that?Why was that a qualification?And I would just repeat the oath, the Boy Scout oath.And I’d say, “Do you want a politician who doesn't believe that?Well, I do, and that's why I think it's part of my qualification.I owe a duty to my God.”
That came up, in fact, when somebody asked me about, what does it mean to swear your oath.And I don't recall what I said totally.I do now, in retrospect, think that my faith—I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; it's a long name; people call us Mormons—that my faith believes that the Constitution was divinely inspired, not by perfect men, but it was a document that would allow and enshrine the greatest gift God gives: my personal agency; that I can choose, and I must choose, all my life, and that there are principles that can guide me in those choices, and that that document says to Americans, you choose, and you will get what you choose, and this vote is what makes that happen.
So for someone to ask me to deny my oath and just let the courts figure it out, or let somebody else, punt it to someone else, is not something I will do.It's my oath, and I hope that I'll never break that.I know I'm not, you know, I'm not perfect.I'm certainly not a perfect witness, but I am a witness.
That's where some of the thoughts that shoot through your mind in all the things that were asked.
It was a powerful hearing, and the panel, as you say, is powerful.That image of you guys before, which I had never thought about it.I knew you would be on a panel, but that you would be there with Secretary Raffensperger, Gabriel Sterling, Shaye Moss.In that room, all of you had suffered.Yes, had done the right thing or even just served as, you know, as counting the votes in the case of Shaye Moss, but had all suffered a tremendous amount for what you did.
Well, yeah, we all went through some degree of pressure.Some, the violent pressure to Shaye and her mom, you know, to have almost this old racial baggage even of a lack of respect for them and their home, her mom's home, things like that.You know, they– There was– It was pressure.And to be there with them was an honor.
You're not thinking at the time, gee, I'm sure honored to be here.But afterwards, it's like, wow, what just happened?You know, it just—like I tell my kids, when you make tough moral choices or tough choices at all, it's not like somebody sends you a letter and says, “In 24 hours you're going to have to make a tough choice,” or somebody says, “OK, it's tough-choice time; everybody get in your places.Have you got your decisions made?It's now.”So I didn't know what they were going to ask me.Neither did they.We knew we'd review what we had.
But what we went through was a series of choices.When Raffensperger gets the pitch to go find him 11,300-and-something, when he was talking about it, that's the first time I'd heard that even said.And here I am, sitting right next to him, and they show it on the screen.And I'm just thinking, man, brother, you did good.
And that he didn't say, “OK, I'll go do it, Mr. President.”He was strong.He said, “No, we did it right.We followed our protocols, and we did them right, and we've looked, and there aren't any other votes.”He answered straight up.And I was proud to be there with a guy like that.
You don't get to pick the team, but now you're on it.And I felt good that I could know them, especially Shaye and her mom.
It was, you know, you could say surreal.I never got into anything that altered my consciousness, so I don't know what really “surreal” means.But it was a unique experience that I'd never had.I've been through a lot.I've had a lot of things—oh, my land, a lot of things in my life.But I was treated respectfully.I knew that by going and saying what I did, it would cement a hatred for me among people, and it has, and I feel bad.[There are] many people who know me and have known me for decades that won't talk to me anymore.And I feel bad.
But there are others who—and many—who continually say, “Hey.”I was at a restaurant two, three days ago, having breakfast, waiting for breakfast, and a guy walks past, and he looked at me, and he kept walking.And then he stopped, and he says, “You look familiar.”And I've had this happen hundreds of times.And I said, “Well, I can guess why, but it's OK.I hope you have a great day.”And he goes, “No.”And he walked up to me, and I'm thinking, OK, where are we going with this?And he puts his, you know, to kind of give me the knuckle bump.And he says, “I watched you on this Jan. 6.You're a man of integrity.Thank you,” and turned around and walked away.
And I think, man, you don't even know me.I can tell you some people with integrity.But at that point, you don't get to choose when it comes.Life comes at you.You don't get forewarning.Life just comes.And that seven seconds when I said to the president, “I will do nothing illegal for you,” those seven words—what, three seconds?—that was my point.From then on, it was all management, you know: Don't give in; you took your stance; don't buckle—you know, things like that.
I don't know.I'm off in space now.
… Is it hard, though, that you told the truth?You raised your hand, you swore, and the committee does all of its work, and there's so many people, especially Republicans, who still don't believe you, don't believe, you know—or believe that the election is stolen.
Is it hard?
Yeah, how hard is that for you? I mean, how do you—
Again, there are people who are totally happy with ignorance.They're totally comfortable.And to upset their view, I can't help them.I can help somebody who says to me, “Did that really happen?”And I said, “Yes, it really happened.This really happened.I went to the counting center.I went through the process.We had witnesses there.We were invited in for the real reviews and not this audit Bozo the Clown thing, but a real review.And it didn't go the way you think.”And they say, “Well, I'm glad you did it; I have to think about this.”It's not like they said, “No way. That's all a lie.You're just part of the conspiracy.”I'm on the payroll from the CCCP, you know.Yeah, they pay a lot.And other things.
But yeah, I wonder how we can hold this thing together when a large number of people suddenly are saying that this is all a fraud.Yeah, there's fraud that happens. It does.People cheat; it happens.But to do something of this magnitude, I say to people, “It doesn't just take me or the director; it takes thousands and thousands of people to do this.It didn't happen.And in fact,” I say, “you want to find out?Read <i>Time</i> magazine.You know, they told you how it happened.”And it was a good review.Shows the difference of the two campaigns.
But it hurts.It hurts that people that I know and that would entertain this.But I can't help that; all I know is what I know, and I'm going to stick with it.
… My last question, … are you optimistic or not?The Republican Party is nominating—they have not yet nominated Donald Trump, but he's leading in the polls.You've seen the statistics on how many Republicans believe this.Obviously the country itself is pretty divided, and we don't need to get into what's going on on Capitol Hill right now, but where, after all you've experienced, do you feel like we are as a country?
It's not a peculiar thought, because I think those who choose a hope which is a motivator towards action, and the action is faith—faith is an action—but I have faith in truth and in those who seek it and are willing to change or alter or change their lives when they find truth, whether it's in any context, to follow truth.And as long as we can find and be assured of things that are true, we have been given the agency to choose to act on it.
If that ever changes, then it's over. It's over.When I can't act on truth, if I have to accept what comes out of a blue screen all the time or out of the mouth of a demagogue or out of somebody who I can tell is playing me, if I don't care, then I deserve it.But as long as I care, and I'm willing to put in the effort to be a real American and to be a real citizen that respects other people around the world in the truth that they seek and want to live, then there's hope.
But if we ever want to say, “No, I'm tired.I'll go with the king.A good dictator is better than this,” whatever other way you want to go, then it's over.Then hell comes back to the Earth.It's in a big way, like we see presently in other parts of the world.
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