The FRONTLINE Interviews

Scott Shafer

KQED

Scott Shafer is the senior editor at KQED's politics and government desk in San Francisco. Shafer also co-hosts the weekly show and podcast Political Breakdown.

The following interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on August 2, 2024. It has been edited for clarity and length.

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The Willie Brown Relationship

Let me just start by asking you, when did Kamala Harris first come on your radar?

I think for a lot of people, they first heard of Kamala Harris in the mid-1990s when she was dating Willie Brown, who at that time was the very powerful speaker of the state Assembly.She was a prosecutor in Alameda County, which is where Oakland and Berkeley are.And her name would pop up in Herb Caen's column.Herb Caen was a very well-known daily columnist, sort of a gossip columnist/society columnist in the <i>San Francisco Chronicle</i>.And you know, he made a big deal of their being a so-called item.And you know, Herb Caen and Willie Brown had lunch like every week at the same restaurant on Fridays.So I think he was definitely a conduit to Herb Caen with information about Kamala Harris.

Can you tell me who Willie Brown was at that point?Who was he as a character and a figure in California politics?

Willie Brown is a legendary figure in California politics.He is easily the most powerful, or certainly on the short list of the most powerful speakers in the state Assembly.He came to California as a kid from Mineola, Texas, to live with his Uncle Itsie [Collins], and he got elected to the state Legislature in 1964, and knocked off an incumbent at that time.And he gradually rose through the ranks in Sacramento.He became speaker, often with the help of Republican votes.But he was known as a consummate power broker, somebody who knew how to wield power, how to understand what his caucus wanted and needed, how to get things done.And he was very powerful.He survived, I think, 30 years as a speaker in the state Assembly, longer than anybody else.And it was only term limits that pushed him out.And term limits in California came about largely because of Willie Brown.He was sort of the poster person for the term limits campaign in 1990.

So he was just a legendary figure.He left the Legislature because of term limits, and then came to San Francisco to become mayor.

I think it was only a year, it wasn't a super long relationship, but what were the types of things she might have learned from somebody like Willie Brown?

Well, you know, people who know Willie Brown say they went to “Brown University” because Willie Brown knows a lot about politics.I think the things that Kamala Harris probably got from Willie Brown include how to make friends and influence people.He made sure that she was introduced to some of the key people in San Francisco's society, the upper echelons of power and wealth in the city, people who saw her as a rising star, somebody with star power that they wanted to get to know.

And so, he took her to a lot of parties where she met people who would later go on to help her raise money in her various campaigns; people who still help her do that.So I think that was really the main thing that he did for her, is to make introductions to her, to give her advice that he gave to a lot of people.

Willie Brown is known for cultivating and being a protégé for a lot of rising politicians in California, including Gavin Newsom.He helped Dianne Feinstein.He was the only elected official to endorse her in her first campaign for the Board of Supervisors back in the '60s.

So, I think, clearly, it was the connections that he helped Kamala Harris make, the doors that he opened up for her that were so important.

I think she's there on election night.There's footage of him when he was mayor.But by the time he's sworn in, that relationship is over?

Yeah.I mean, to hear her tell it, I think she decided that he was going to be married to that job and that there wasn't really going to be any time for a serious relationship.And so, she broke it off.He's quite eager to tell you that he got dumped by her.And so, they remained friends, obviously, over the years, but I wouldn't say that they're still in close contact or anything like that.

… How does she look back on that?Because she's asked about that when she runs for DA and other times.I mean, how, if she was to talk about that now?

Well, I think, in general, women get judged differently than men, oftentimes.And a lot of people are quick to say, oh, you know, she couldn't have made it without so-and-so, somebody who was a male who helped her get ahead.And you know, while it's certainly true that Willie Brown helped her, she really did a lot on her own.She was the one that worked the rooms.She was the one that wowed people.She was the one that did the work and the campaigning, you know.No one can do that for her.

I don't want to speak for her, certainly, about her relationship with Willie Brown, but I think it was probably a positive experience.I mean, Willie Brown is legendary for having dated a lot of women over the years, and I've never heard any of them say anything bad about him.So I doubt you'd hear Kamala, if she would ever talk about him, say anything bad either.

Harris’ Rise in San Francisco Politics

What do you see in this? I think it's like 10 years between there and when she runs for DA, or maybe a little bit less, but what is she doing in that period after she first comes on your radar?

Well, she's working as a line prosecutor in Alameda County.She's dealing with a lot of, you know, violent crime.She also worked on juvenile issues.She was very concerned with the way juveniles were treated in the criminal justice system.And then, she was recruited to work in San Francisco by the then-district attorney Terence Hallinan, who was a liberal.He was a progressive, came from a very well-known liberal family in San Francisco.

And so, she came to San Francisco, started working in that office as a prosecutor.She was the head of the criminal violent crimes division.She worked on rape and robbery, assault cases, things like that.But she had a bit of a falling out with someone in the office and so she left and went to work for a short time in the city attorney's office, which is, of course, civil cases.She worked in the city attorney's office on issues involving children and families, women, those sorts of things.And then, she finally decided to challenge her former boss, Terrence Hallinan, and run against him in the 2003 election.

And I guess as you're describing it, too, she's not just doing that in those years.She's building a political network.She's connecting.Is that right?

Absolutely.I mean, I think there was a wide feeling in the establishment of San Francisco — by that, I mean sort of the powerful middle — that Terence Hallinan was a little too liberal as district attorney.And I think Kamala probably at some point, long before she announced that she was going to run for district attorney, had her eye on that office.I mean, she had a prosecutor's background and she had the kind of profile that would do well among San Francisco voters.

So yes, she was really building her portfolio, her résumé, making connections and developing the kinds of relationships that would help her when she finally announced her run for office.

What is the political world of San Francisco like that she would be walking into?

Well, San Francisco is a very rough-and-tumble world of politics.It's a small city, seven miles by seven miles.Politics in San Francisco have been described as like a knife fight in a phone booth, meaning, it's very close; everyone knows each other.It's very personal at times, and you have to have tough skin.

And a lot of people who have emerged from San Francisco's world of politics and gone on to do big things.Dianne Feinstein.Of course, Willie Brown, I mentioned.Barbara Boxer.Nancy Pelosi.Kamala Harris.So it is the kind of place where you're dealing not just with intense politics, but also diverse communities — immigrants, the Black community, the Chinese community, the Latino community, the gay community.

And so, if you're able to navigate a very diverse and tough political environment like San Francisco, you emerge from that with some pretty good lessons in politics.And a lot of people have gone on to much bigger things.

Harris’ Background as a Prosecutor

… How important was that decision to become a prosecutor,to who she would become and to her political career?

I think being a prosecutor was incredibly important to her identity and the way she saw the world.You know, when she ran for president in 2019, she called herself a progressive prosecutor.That was tough for her in those years because she was running in the same primary as Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren to her left.And it was hard for her to find a lane.You know, it was right in the midst of a lot of unrest over police use of excessive force, shootings of unarmed Black men, and there were people, including some in the Black community who looked at her as a cop, you know, as somebody who was putting people of color in jail disproportionately.

And so, it was difficult for her in that race, in 2019, to be identified as a prosecutor, even a progressive prosecutor.A lot of people wondered, what is a progressive prosecutor?You're putting people in jail and in prison.What is progressive about that?Ironically, that framing works a lot better for her in 2024, when she is, you know, came right out of the box and framed it as a prosecutor against a convicted felon.I think that her experience as a prosecutor and her point of view on criminal justice issues, which might have been a bit of a disadvantage in 2019, could end up being much more of an advantage in 2024.

Harris Resists Labels

It's interesting because it seems like there's a theme in her life of trying to categorize her.… Is she a progressive prosecutor?Is she a conservative prosecutor?Is she tough on crime?Does she seem to resist that as a politician?

So, her first race in 2003 for district attorney in San Francisco, she was not the liberal candidate; she was running against the liberal.Terence Hallinan, who had been a boxer when he was a kid, he was a very progressive prosecutor.She ran to his right.And even though Terrence Hallinan had been a boxer when he was a kid, it was Kamala Harris who delivered the knockout punch in that election.She really ran right in the middle of the spectrum and was able to win pretty easily, and then four years later get reelected without any opposition.

She's never been like a lefty.She's never been regarded as a lefty, certainly not by San Francisco standards.And even in California.I mean, there were people in the state Legislature, for example, including in the Black legislative caucus, who thought she was too cautious, who didn't like the fact that she was doing some of the programs that she was doing in terms of truancy, defending the death penalty, that sort of thing.

So I think it's fair for her to say that she has not been a raging liberal in the state of California or in San Francisco, even though she may have come out of a political environment that is pretty progressive.

Is this idea, the smart on crime idea, a way of getting out of that sort of ideological divide that we're so used to?

Yeah.Well, first of all, I think that context is helpful.She became attorney general around the time that California prisons were bulging at the seams.California was under a Supreme Court order to reduce the population of prisons.And so, the governor, Jerry Brown, and the attorney general, Kamala Harris, were looking for ways to reduce the prison population.One of those was rehabilitation.You know, good behavior could get you credits, get you out of prison more quickly, maybe having fewer nonviolent criminals sent to prison.

So, I think, she was very much a part of that.I think she always viewed criminal justice reform and being smart on crime as being important.It wasn't just throwing away the key, throwing people in prison, locking them up for the rest of their lives or for decades.I mean, she did that with people, but there were certainly other cases where she tried to give folks a second chance.

Harris as San Francisco District Attorney

Let's go back to the first DA race for a second.I mean, was it an uphill battle?Was she an underdog in that race when she starts out?

Well, I think you're always an underdog when you take on an incumbent.Terence Hallinan was very well known.He had been on the Board of Supervisors.His father had been a very well-known civil rights attorney.So the Hallinan name was gold-plated in the progressive community in San Francisco.So, I think, you always begin, especially if you're a political novice who's never run for office, to challenge an incumbent is not easy.

That said, you know, she also had another challenger to her right.So, she was right in the middle.That's a pretty good place to be when you're running for office in San Francisco.San Francisco has an image of being very liberal, and it is in many ways.But if you're running citywide, it's rarely the liberal candidate or the most liberal candidate who gets elected.San Francisco's had a long series of mayors who were much more in the middle of the political spectrum—Gavin Newsom, Willie Brown, for that matter, Dianne Feinstein, certainly.And now London Breed.So I think that Kamala Harris was certainly left of center, but, you know, a moderate, practical kind of progressive who was very well positioned.

But she was running against an incumbent.In the primary election in 2003, each of those three candidates—the incumbent, Kamala Harris, and also Bill Fazio, the more conservative prosecutor—they each got about a third of the vote.Kamala Harris came in second.Hallinan came in first.And then she pretty easily won in the runoff.

The Isaac Espinoza Murder

What was it like for her to walk in as a Black woman into that environment?What would the rooms have been like that she would be walking into when she becomes either an assistant district attorney or the DA?

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there were many times Kamala Harris was the only woman in the room, or the only woman of color or person of color, for sure; you know, a lot of prosecutors historically have been white males.And so, when she walked into the DA's office in San Francisco, there were a very small number of Black prosecutors.And she came into office promising not to seek the death penalty, which is not a controversial position in San Francisco.But four months into her term as district attorney in April of 2004, a San Francisco police officer was shot and killed, Isaac Espinoza.And before the funeral, Kamala Harris, as DA, announced that she would not seek the death penalty.

I think in retrospect, she knows that was maybe not the best timing because there was a lot of anger directed at her.As you can imagine, when a police officer is shot and killed in the line of duty, the feelings are very raw within the department and in the community as well.And so, some of that animosity and anger got directed at her, including by Dianne Feinstein, who was in the U.S.Senate, went to that funeral for that officer and said publicly that she, Kamala Harris, should seek the death penalty for the person who shot and killed him.

It sounds like such a dramatic moment.I mean, can you just help me understand how searing that would have been for this politician who'd only been in there for 100 days?

Yeah.I think the murder of Officer Espinoza and what happened after that, her not seeking the death penalty and the reaction to that, was a seminal moment in her early political career.She saw what happened, and the animosity, the anger she received from the police officers' union, law enforcement generally, that followed her to when she ran for attorney general in 2010.She only got one or two endorsements from law enforcement organizations.And she really knew that if she was going to get reelected or even elected, she needed to really heal some of those relationships.

And she worked very hard as attorney general.She went to every county, met with every district attorney.And so, when she ran for reelection, she actually was endorsed by about 50 law enforcement organizations.

But the point is, I think that experience as DA, when the police officer was shot and killed, the anger that she felt for not seeking the death penalty is something that really changed her trajectory as a prosecutor.I think it made her more cautious.It made her more unwilling to cross law enforcement.It made her more defensive of law enforcement in ways that really angered some progressives in California.

After Officer Espinoza was killed, I think she spent a lot of years trying to make amends with the police, with law enforcement, sheriffs, district attorneys and others.

It's also a different time than it would be in 2019.As you were describing what California was like, in the political environment, you know, that she was rising up in, it's not that—the time of Black Lives Matter.What is the environment?

She has a big, splashy announcement in January of 2019 in her hometown of Oakland, a sunny day; 20,000 people show up.It was a great start for her campaign, but she quickly ran into problems because of this political environment with Black Lives Matter rising and a lot of anger directed at the police and law enforcement.Some of the killings, you know, the brutal killings of young, unarmed Black men, and in some cases, women.And so, she found herself in the middle of that political environment.And it was very difficult to figure out how she was going to present herself in a way that would appeal to voters, in a Democratic primary especially.

Harris as California Attorney General

So let's go back to when she's running for attorney general.What was the political environment at that moment back in 2011?

Well, I mean, California used to be a pretty Republican state.…You know, in the first years that I was in California in the 1980s, we had Republican governors.There were members of the California Supreme Court that got recalled by the voters because of their opposition to the death penalty.We had at least one Republican senator all the time.And so, even in 2010 we had a Republican governor in Arnold Schwarzenegger.And so, there was still a viable Republican Party, although that was really beginning to wane.…

In 2010, she ran against a popular district attorney in Los Angeles, Steve Cooley, who was a Republican.And it was a very tough race.Kamala Harris barely won that race.It took weeks to figure out who had won.And so, I think if she had lost that race, we wouldn't be here right now talking about her because it would have really put a crimp in her political career.But she was able to pull that election out, and obviously was able to recover from what was a very rocky start in terms of her relationships with law enforcement.

Is that election what puts her on the radar, the national radar as somebody who's up and coming?

In 2008, she endorsed Barack Obama for president.And, you know, Hillary Clinton was very popular, as was Bill Clinton, in California.And so, she was really kind of going out on a limb.And so, when he became president, I think that really helped her in terms of making connections in Washington and in other places.It gave her credibility as a rising African American leader.

And so, when she did get elected—you know, any time you get elected attorney general, you know, there's an old joke: AG stands for aspiring governor.Once you become attorney general of any state, but especially a state as big as California, you have a much bigger political horizon in your future.

And what's her reputation as an attorney general in those years?

You know, I think her reputation as attorney general was mixed.She was not a flaming liberal, that's for sure.She defended California's death penalty after it had been struck down by a district court judge and an appeals court judge.She was very slow to investigate police.…There are allegations of prosecutorial misconduct in some of the counties by district attorneys, and she wasn't as aggressive in following those things up; again, being cautious about crossing some of the law enforcement people at the local level.I think that was really, again, kind of a remnant of her experience as district attorney in San Francisco.…After the mortgage meltdown, the Obama administration negotiated a settlement with a lot of the mortgage service companies and the various states.And California's share of that settlement would have been about $4 billion.And Kamala Harris said, “No, that's not enough.” She walked away from that agreement, went out on her own and ended up getting about $18 billion for the state of California, on behalf of people who had been scammed by some of these mortgage companies.I think that was probably her biggest win.Certainly something she talks about to this day.

She was also known as somebody who was very pro-consumer.She went after some of these colleges, for-profit colleges that preyed especially on low-income people who were students at these colleges.She got us over $1 million settlement from one of those schools.

She also went after oil companies for environmental reasons.And when there was some environmental damage to the Bay or other bodies of water in California, she was very aggressive in prosecuting those things.

So I think she developed a reputation as pro-consumer, also very pro-environment, pro-labor; you know, the kind of things that a Democratic attorney general would be known for.

What motivates her to get into the mortgage moment and what it reveals about her as a leader?

There are always political considerations in these kinds of decisions.It would have been easy for her to just accept the $4 billion share that had been negotiated in that settlement.So whether it was by political pressure or otherwise, it was a risk.I mean, she was going out on her own.And I think it, you know, there was some stakes there that she was putting on the table, and it worked out well for California.It was not preordained.So you know, while she may have been, you know, kind of pressured into it in some ways by the governor or others, in the end, she had to negotiate a win for the state.And she did.

She's asked about legalizing marijuana and she, you know, doesn't really answer.… Who was the Kamala Harris the politician that we see in that moment and where does that response to a question like that come from?

There were a lot of people in California, in the progressive community, that wanted her to take more of a leading role in a number of issues, including the decriminalization/legalization of recreational marijuana.There were also some criminal justice reforms on the ballot.And she declined to take a position.She basically punted on those questions.She said it wasn't appropriate for her as attorney general to do that because she could be involved in having to defend those or write the ballot and title summary.Which is true, but really, I think, kind of a dodge.And I think a lot of people saw that as a lack of courage, a lack of willingness to put herself out there in the way that, say, Gavin Newsom did when he was running for governor or lieutenant governor, really becoming a big advocate out in front on issues like gay marriage and legalizing marijuana.

Do you think that's a response from the Espinoza type of experience?

The experience of that police officer being shot and killed less than four months into her term as district attorney was a life-changing moment in terms of her view of politics.And I think it was carried over into her years as attorney general and maybe even a U.S.senator, to a certain extent.But certainly, when she was the attorney general, there's no question that some of her cautiousness, that unwillingness to go after police for, you know, violence or excessive use of force, that those kinds of decisions that she made to not get involved or not go as far as some wanted her to, I'm sure are remnants of what she went through as district attorney.

Harris in the U.S. Senate

Can you help me understand the decision to run for senator and the politics at that moment?

Yeah.So Barbara Boxer had been the senator.She was elected in 1992, the Year of the Woman, along with Dianne Feinstein.In 2015, Boxer announces that she's not going to run for reelection.And so, there's an open Senate seat, which is a rarity.

Now, it had been many years since a Republican won a statewide election in California, so it was probably going to be a safe seat for Democrats.She was very quick to jump into the race, and she pretty much cleared the field.Loretta Sanchez, who was a congresswoman from Southern California, also got into the race, and there were a few other minor candidates.But it was really Kamala Harris who was the, you know, the 800-pound gorilla in that race because of her status as attorney general.And you know, it was kind of a clear move for her.…

Let's go to the election night of 2016, when she comes in the Senate, and that's the year that I think she's expecting that Hillary Clinton is going to be elected.And looking back on it, it seems like a pivot point.I mean, not just for the country, but also for her.Help me understand that night and what her expectations would have been and how it would have scrambled who she was going to be as an incoming senator.

… California is a deep blue state.You know, it has a super majority in the legislature.A Republican hasn't won statewide in California since 2006.And so, the idea that Hillary Clinton was going to be in the White House—Bill Clinton had been a great friend of California—I'm sure that Kamala Harris and Jerry Brown, who was governor at the time, and everyone else was hoping and expecting that Hillary Clinton was going to become the first woman president.And that would be very good for California.…

Obviously, her time in the Senate turned out to be different, in part because the president was Republican and hostile to a lot of the things that California was for, whether it was the environment or civil rights, gay marriage, abortion rights, that kind of a thing.And so, it really put her in a more oppositional mode, which she used well.You know, we saw her skills, for example, on the Judiciary Committee interrogating Brett Kavanaugh when he was nominated to be on the Supreme Court.Bill Barr, the attorney general, also got some tough questions from her.

So, the fact that she was oppositional to the person in the White House was very helpful to her because she had some viral moments in some of those hearings where she was, you know, really being the prosecutor and asking tough questions that helped elevate her status, helped her get more national attention.

How does that moment change her?And does her past as a prosecutor play into it, or her parents?

Kamala is a natural fighter, whether she's in the courtroom or on a judiciary committee or on the campaign or the debate stage.I mean, we saw her spine in the 2020 debate with Joe Biden, where she brought out his background as having worked with segregationist senators who opposed busing.So I think she's very comfortable in the space where she is oppositional and being very forceful.Now, that's not everyone's cup of tea, but I think it's very natural for her.

Moving into the national stage, what are the challenges that she faces and does she bring things from her experience in California that help her to deal with that?

If you're an elected official in California, you're generally working with Democrats who share your values on everything from the environment to civil rights, gay rights, voting rights, you name it.When Kamala Harris gets to Washington, she is suddenly dealing with a lot of Republicans.And that's something she wasn't really used to doing in California.And she was able to work across the aisle at times, but I'm quite sure that she rubbed a lot of Republicans the wrong way in terms of the way she conducted some of her questioning in those hearings.

Harris’ 2019 Run for President

You talked about her decision to run and that feeling that, you know, she wasn't going to wait when she runs.Are you at that announcement in Oakland?

I was, yeah, yeah.

What was that like?

When she made that announcement in January of 2019, there was a moment of great hope for her.In some ways, it was the high point of her campaign that year.The crowd was massive.It was a beautiful, sunny day.There were a lot of young people there.There were a lot of people of color.There was a lot of excitement at the idea that somebody from Oakland and the Bay Area could get elected president.

And unfortunately, it didn't pan out.Her message didn't really work.She wasn't the best candidate.She had a hard time raising money.

But that first day when she made that announcement, it was a magic day for her and the campaign.It was a great launch.It's the kind of launch, I think, that any candidate for president would love to have.

And when they called her Kamala Harris for the people, what did they mean by that?

So I mean, when you're a prosecutor, you know, and you open up the case, you say “Kamala Harris for the people.” That is what you are; you're representing the people in the courtroom.And that was really the slogan she adopted for running for president.And it was kind of a double message in a way: “I am a progressive prosecutor, but I'm also for the average person.” And so, Kamala Harris for the people, it was what she would say in the courtroom and it's also now what she was saying when she ran for president on the stump in terms of her slogan.

And as you talked about, that was maybe not the best year for that to be her identity.

Yeah, 2019 was not a good year to be known as a prosecutor and to put that identity front and center in a Democratic primary.You know, put her on her back heels.She was on the defense a lot, sort of explaining what she did, why she wasn't more progressive.What is a progressive prosecutor?There were people who thought she was basically just a cop and putting a lot of people of color into jail and prison.

And so, it didn't go over particularly well.She never really got great traction in that election, and she was forced to drop out before any votes were cast.

What is she struggling with in that campaign?

Yeah, I think, you know, as attorney general, she did do things, many things, that were progressive in terms of, you know, working on anti-recidivism programs and helping juveniles and others, young girls, women who had been trafficked.She did a lot of things that were progressive.But at the same time, she took positions that a lot of criminal justice reform experts would not embrace or were against, whether it was her support legally of the death penalty, defending that in court, not going after prosecutors who were at the local level, who were accused of misconduct, those kinds of things.

And so, when you try to use that message of being a progressive prosecutor, there are a lot of people who are going to look at her record and say, “You weren't a progressive prosecutor; what does that even mean?”

And so, you know, when you're trying to compete against Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren on your left and Joe Biden on your right and Pete Buttigieg and others, it's a very muddled, complicated message.And I think it's one that she never really figured out how to sell.

It creates this question of who is Kamala Harris.

Absolutely.

Was that one of the problems?

Yeah.You know, I think when she was running for president and when she became vice president, there were a lot of people who just couldn't figure out what was her core, what were her, you know, values that she really cared most about?Because there were a lot of contradictions in her history as district attorney, as attorney general; there were things she did that progressives weren't happy with.And so, I think that it really created a bit of a, I don't know if I'd say identity crisis, but politically it was a problem for her to try to sell herself in that way.

Do you think that's because she has trouble communicating who she is because it's too complicated?Or do you think that she doesn't know who she is?

I think Kamala Harris knows who she is, but I think she sometimes has a hard time articulating that.You can sometimes see her when she's talking, calculating in her mind before the words come out, like, “What should I say?What is the right thing to say?” And a lot of people have seen some of those interviews where she seemed uncertain, she seemed caught off guard by the question.And she, you could tell she was struggling to do what she thought would be helpful, whether or not it was her core conviction.

And I think people are always looking for authenticity in politicians.It's hard to find.But I think one of her weaknesses as a candidate, both for vice president and initially when she became vice president was really communicating in a way that people felt was authentic.And I think that's something that she's finding her voice on now that she's at the top of the ticket.But it was something that didn't come natural or easily to her.

Harris as Vice President

What position does she find herself in as she's sworn in as vice president?

I think she got into the job as vice president with a lot of suspicion from people around Joe Biden.You know, Biden was the old war horse, the lion of the Senate, somebody who had a lot of credentials with foreign policy and other things.I think she found it difficult to kind of work her way into the inner circle and have credibility and respect from the people around Biden.

In the early years of her vice presidency, there were leaks or unnamed sources in the White House kind of undermining her, saying things that were not particularly flattering.And it took a while for her to find her lane.Initially, the president assigned her to work on the root causes of migration and people leaving places like Guatemala, Honduras, going down there, telling people not to come to the United States.And that was a hard, hard battle to say, “Oh, look I fixed the problem.” I mean it's such a huge issue down there in terms of crime, public safety, violence, drugs, all of those things, corruption, that lead people to leave those countries.

It wasn't until the Dobbs decision when Roe v. Wade was struck down that she really found her voice as an advocate for women seeking an abortion, seeking healthcare.And I think she's become a very credible messenger on that in ways that Joe Biden was never comfortable doing.

Biden Stumbles and Harris Steps Up

Kamala Harris has been a loyal vice president to Joe Biden.And even as those questions about his age and talk from some in the campaign that he's the only one who can run, I mean, what's the implication of that during that period when the Biden campaign is saying he can't leave.And here she is sitting, you know, over in the building next door or the room next door.

You know, when Joe Biden ran for president, when he became president, he said he saw himself as a bridge to the next generation.And Kamala Harris clearly represented the next generation.And yet, I think there was a feeling or a doubt that maybe she wasn't up to being that person, not up to winning a national election.And I think that really played heavily into Biden's sense, and the people around him, that if he wanted to defeat Trump, if the Democrats wanted to defeat Trump, that he had to remain there.

Now, obviously, that turned out not to be a good call on their part because of everything else that was going on with him, with his health.But the fact that she wasn't the natural heir to be the top of the ticket and have the easy, early embrace of the president was really an indication that they had not a lot of faith that she could do it, that she was capable of carrying a ticket to victory in November.

And that couldn't have been lost to her, could it?

I'm sure she was extremely aware of that and I think it was probably difficult.And you know, I think one of the moments where Kamala Harris really came into her own was right after that debacle of the debate on June 27th.And she went on CNN and MSNBC, and she defended Joe Biden in a way that I think caught a lot of people off guard because she was so effective in standing up for him and saying, “That's not the Joe Biden I've seen in the Oval Office; you're trying to judge him on 90 minutes; I've seen him for three-and-a-half years.”

And she was being a loyal vice president, but she was also kind of showing herself as a great communicator and surprising people, I think, and getting a second look from people who were maybe a little skeptical that she could do it.

It was a remarkable moment because people were saying, "I wish that Joe Biden had said that."At this moment of his weakness, did it turn attention on her?

I think a lot of people said, “Where has that Kamala Harris been?You know, she's terrific, that was fantastic.” And yet, we've seen so many times where she seemed tentative, unsure of herself, not great footing, caught off guard by things.And so, I think she really has come into her own in the weeks and months leading up to Joe Biden stepping down. …

After that debate in 2019, when she confronted Joe Biden over his position on busing, "I was that little girl," it was a real moment for her that went viral, that moment really surprised Biden, and it hurt Biden, and it angered the people around him, including his sister and his wife.

And so, when the time came for her to be considered as a possible running mate, she knew she had to make amends in some way with the family.She played on her relationship with Beau Biden, who was an attorney general at the time she was before he died.And she promised the president that she would be loyal, that she would not elevate herself at his expense.And I think that what happened and what played out in the weeks before he stepped down really was evidence of her keeping that promise.

Harris Becomes the Democratic Presidential Nominee

She gets word that Joe Biden is not going to continue seeking the nomination or being the nominee of the Democratic Party.

What's the crisis at that moment, what are the stakes?

Well, I don't think anyone was totally surprised that Joe Biden made this decision.There was a lot of pressure closing in on him from Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer and others in the Democratic Party; Adam Schiff, very well known here in California.So I don't think she was surprised, but I think that as soon as the moment happened, she realized she had a very short time to move if she was going to secure the nomination and not become part of a process which Nancy Pelosi, former President Obama, were saying would really help her to have some kind of a nominating process where she had to compete and win the nomination.She clearly didn't want to go through that; she thought perhaps that would be too risky, too messy and not good for the party and not good for the ticket's chances in November.

And so, she really had to work very quickly.She made a hundred, more than 100 phone calls within that first 12, 24 hours to people around the country—elected officials, labor leaders, people who, you know, were key elements of the Democratic coalition—to really consolidate her support so that by the time a process was announced for what was going to happen, how were they going to decide, it was clear that nobody was going to run against her, because there was no process to have, because nobody credible was going to step out and challenge her.

Can you help me understand how she sees the stakes of this election and her own confidence in her ability to win?

Well, you know, her mother always told her, “It's fine to be the first; just make sure you're not the last.” And I think that she sees herself running for president now as somebody who is picking up the mantle, perhaps from Barack Obama, perhaps the one that Hillary Clinton couldn't bring over the finish line in 2016.And I think because she is in law enforcement, because she does have a background of dealing with the kinds of issues that Donald Trump, you know, has confronted with law enforcement, I think she sees the stakes that the Democratic Party and others are framing, including some Republicans, that democracy is on the ballot, that democracy is at stake; the rule of law is at stake.

And so, that's a very easy framing for her as a former prosecutor.But I think it also works pretty well with a lot of middle-of-the-road voters, you know, the double-haters, so to speak.I think they're going to see that as a good option for them as they're trying to decide who to vote for.

And the attacks on her that she's going to get, that she's already getting on race and on gender, is she prepared to deal with those from her experience?

Clearly, as we've seen, the Republican ticket, Donald Trump and JD Vance are going to go after her on all kinds of things, including her identity.They're going to try to sort of other her.JD Vance, talking about all the time she spent in Canada, just as they did with Barack Obama growing up in Indonesia, to try to make her seem less than American.They've even questioned her citizenship in a way, and the the fact that she was born to immigrants from India and Jamaica.

So I think all of these things are things that she's going to have to face.And I think we'll find out if she's got what it takes to face it.But I think there are certainly things in her career—standing up to bullies, standing up to, you know, nominees for the U.S. Supreme Court or the attorney general as a member of the Judiciary Committee, that have prepared her for this moment.

I think, you know, she is a tough cookie.Nancy Pelosi jokes that she has a steel spine.People say that she eats glass for breakfast, or nails, whatever it is.I don't think Kamala Harris is very far behind.She is very steely.She has a spine.And I don't think you're going to see her backing down.And I think you're going to see her really relish taking the fight.She likes to be on offense.She was a prosecutor, not a defense attorney.

As you say, that's something you get from coming up in politics in California.

Everything she learned in San Francisco politics, the old knife fight in a phone booth, having to deal with all of the nastiness and the personal attacks, I think we're going to find out how well it's prepared her.But I'd say it's a pretty good place to learn how to win a fight.

What’s the Choice on the Ballot?

So the last question that we ask everybody is: As you see it, what's the choice facing voters in November?

I think in a lot of ways the choice is, are we going to go back or are we going to go forward?Kamala Harris represents something very different from Donald Trump.You know, he is 78 years old.He's running with a white male from Ohio who has a very sort of traditional view of women.You know, Kamala Harris is trying to break a glass ceiling.She is somebody who is much more traditional in the sense that she wants to enforce the rule of law.She wants to provide more opportunity for more people.And I think that she would be a much more traditional kind of president.

I think we've seen Donald Trump challenging the validity of our alliances in Europe, wondering how would he stand up to a Vladimir Putin.And I think that there is really a sense of, is America going to be a leader in the world or are we going to become more of a isolationist kind of country, America First, where we kind of put our own needs ahead of everyone else at the expense of our alliances, perhaps, and our friendships that have lasted across oceans and different continents for many, many decades?

Kamala Harris represents a new generation, somebody of mixed race, a woman, obviously, the daughter of immigrants.And whether you like it or not, the United States is becoming a country of very diverse people who are at the table, who are making decisions.And she represents that future in a way that obviously Donald Trump doesn't.And that's the choice, or one of the choices, that voters are going to have to decide in November.

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