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Tracey Quillen Carney

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Tracey Quillen Carney

Biden Aide and Family Friend

Tracey Quillen Carney is Delaware’s First Lady. From 1984 to 2002, she worked as a writer in then-Senator Joe Biden’s office in Wilmington, and later worked on the Judiciary Committee staff during Biden’s term as chairman. She is a close family friend of the Bidens.

The following interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on May 29, 2024, prior to Joe Biden’s withdrawal from the presidential race. It has been edited for clarity and length.

This interview appears in:

Biden’s Decision

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Biden’s Early Political Days

Let's just start at the very beginning.The first time you meet Joe Biden, I gather you're just a girl at the time.

I was 10 years old.There was a parade in my hometown of New Castle, Delaware.It was the president's first Senate campaign, and he was there, campaigning obviously, and my best friend growing up and I each were holding a Joe Biden sign on either side of the podium.This was not planned.I don't know how it happened.But we were 10 years old, and he spent so much time talking to us, who could do nothing for him.And that left a lasting impression on me from the very beginning.

... He was himself quite young at that point.

He was. He was 29.

And do you remember what he was selling back then?

It was all very personal.It was nothing about politics or "Your generation is so important," or anything like that.It was like, "Tell me about you."Again, such an impression; just the interest he took in us was amazing to me then and is now.

That is something about Joe Biden as a politician, isn't it, that defines him.He's sort of famous for that kind of interaction.

I just was in Boston, and we took a tour of Fenway Park, and the guy who helped us get into the ballpark told a story about when the president was vice president.He came to an event.And this guy is a retired Boston police officer, so he was on the force at the time, and he said, "The vice president walked up to me and said, 'I am so sorry.I was so sorry to hear about your father.'"His father had just died.And he said, "He gave me a big hug."And you hear stories like that everywhere you go.And I said, "I'm going to tell him that I saw you."He said, "He won't remember me."I said, "He'll remember this story.He'll remember this story.He'll remember the human interaction part."

It's interesting what it is about Joe Biden that makes him that kind of politician.Somebody told us that he had wanted to be a priest once, and that that's sort of what a parish priest has, those same skills of relating to people.What do you think it is about—

I think his inclination is toward compassion, right, not toward judgment.I think as a person, his inclination is toward compassion, and he really—he's got this sense of everybody's dignity.That's really important for him, to him, to honor everybody's dignity.So I think that is such a core part of his being that the interactions like the ones I'm describing just kind of naturally flow from that.

And as you remember it at that time, it was even more important than whatever the policy was or whatever it was he was running on.You don't remember what it was, the issues?

You mean when I was a kid?

Yeah, in those campaigns.

Again, I think what impressed me is there were so many people there who could help him, who could do something for him.He's still an underdog at this point in this campaign, and he spent his time talking to the two 10-year-olds.And I think that was—yeah, he did have very, very young children at the time, so I think he was oriented.That multigenerational thing did appeal to him.But I don't remember what he said, but I remember he was interested in us.He was interested in what we thought about our town and stuff like that.

Politics as a Family Affair

... As you've known him over the years, the family's involvement in politics, are they all part of the campaign?Are they all part of this profession that Joe Biden has taken on?

That's an interesting question, because I think that has ebbed and flowed a little bit over time.And I don't pretend to be on the inside of any family information, obviously.But I think more than anybody I've ever known, his dual commitment to family and public service is very genuine.I mean, he pulls that off; he doesn't sacrifice one for the other, and never has.

I think Neilia was more enthusiastic about politics at first than Jill was, but Jill certainly came to be really, really good at it and to value the opportunities that it gave her to do things she wanted to do, too.

That's my observation, again.I don't want to pretend to be more of an insider than I am.

That race ... he was quite an underdog coming in up against an incumbent senator, a young county commissioner, and pulls off this upset victory.And I sometimes wonder, does that shape his attitude towards challenges in the future, in political campaigns?

Well, our two families got to know each other in an act of bipartisanship, because his father sold Chevys, and my grandfather sold Fords.So that's how they met, through the business, and he became friends with my dad.And I remember my dad telling the story about the president coming to see him saying, "I'm going to run against Cale Boggs," and my dad said, "Well, you'll be a contrast."

So it was not a traditional Delaware election of the time, which would sort of been two old-guard people going up against each other.It was really—it was very different.It was very bold.And there were a lot of factors that came together to make it successful.Eighteen-year-olds could vote; there was Vietnam; his primacy of commitment to civil rights, which was still a big deal.It is still a big deal.

So I think there were a lot of things that came together, and it was still a very civil campaign.He was a force in getting the federal building in Wilmington named after Sen. Boggs.It's the J. Caleb Boggs Federal Building where the Senate office was for many years.He, the president, was one of the main people who got that done.So there was a respect there.He didn't want to dishonor the service that Sen. Boggs had given to the state of Delaware in any way.He just thought it was time for a change.

Joe Biden’s Parents

So you knew the president's father?

I did.

What was he like?He writes about him and his trajectory of having money and losing it and trying to take care of the family.What was he like?What impact do you think he had?

I think that value of each person's dignity.I can see that as a pretty straight line from Mr. [Joseph] Biden [Sr.] to the president, because he didn't think his own dignity had always been honored the way it should be, and he was never going to do that to anybody else.And I think he passed that along, almost verbatim, so to speak.It was like a connection from him to his son.

I enjoyed Mr. Biden very much.I had him once—I had a two-door car, and he was squished in the back seat because he insisted that Mrs. Biden ride in the front.So he was sitting literally sideways across the back seat.I was like, "You must be so uncomfortable."And he was just a rock about it.So I enjoyed both of them very much.

What was she [Joe Biden’s mother] like?When we've asked people, most people have told us he didn't talk that much, and she did more.I mean, but what was she like?What was he like?To the extent you can help us understand them.

Well, it's always been interesting to me.I always called Mrs. [Catherine Finnegan] Biden Mom-Mom.I don't know how that started; I don't know where that came from.But it does reflect the kind of warmth and friendliness that was very easy with her.Then she had this kind of steely backbone if challenged, if somebody did something to one of her kids, for example.I think the steel came out.But she was a very warm, gracious person, very easy to talk to and get along with.

Mr. Biden was quieter.But again, he was such a good, solid guy.He was such a solid guy.You felt you never had to worry about, you know – he wouldn't say much, but when he said it, he meant it.You never had to worry about guessing at what he thought.

“We Bidens”

When we hear about the family and the way they talk about the family, "we Bidens," and a sense of the Biden name and all the siblings are so close, do they stand out as a family?Is there something about being a Biden, about growing up in that home that shapes Joe Biden?

Again, I would never speak for them and pretend to be a family insider, but I think what they are is exactly what they say they are.There's no pretense or act to this family ethos that you hear them talk about and that you see in public.This is a real solid family group.

What Valerie [Biden Owens] did after the accident in December of '72, helping to raise the boys until the president married Jill in '77, was such a partnership kind of thing.It's, you know, "That's my brother; that's my sister."It's like, "This is what we do for each other."It's really inspiring to watch.

I think Valerie's a tremendous force in her own right and a tremendous partner to him.And I liked, in her book, I like the credit Jimmy got for how he was supportive during difficult times as well.I'm not sure that had been talked about till Valerie's book.

I mean, it is forged, that connection, through tragedy.They're helping him before.She's involved in the campaign, and they're very close.But that tragedy does—right as he's going into the Senate.

Yeah, it allowed him to do his new job.I think Valerie allowed him to do his new job.I don't think that's an overstatement.

It's interesting.There's a story they don't like to tell because they're afraid it sounds critical of their dad, but it's not.It's just, it's of the time, right?Mr. Biden was thinking about money and how we were going to pay for college and things like that, and he said, "Well, I think we should send Joe to college because he's going to have to support his family.We don't know whether Valerie is going to have to do that or not."And the president said, "She's the better student than I am.She gets better grades than I do.If only one of us can go, it should be her."

So he was the great partner to her as well, a great advocate for her.She tells the joke, she says, "It was kind of 'Love me, love my dog.'"She would talk about taking his little sister around.But obviously, she was a lot more than that.She was, again, a force in her own right.

And is that what happened?

They both went. They both went.Yeah.Both went to Delaware.

We've been wondering about him as the oldest son, if he had a feeling of—especially because his dad struggled, if there was a sense that he had to look after the family.

He has a sense of responsibility for other people, and he always wants to help.Obviously it's strongest with the family, but it extends to other people as well.I had an officemate on the Senate staff who had a terrible progressive disease called Friedreich's ataxia, and he got his job because he testified at a field hearing about the difficulty getting enough employment to support himself without losing his benefits to be independent as he wanted to be.And he said the president said, who was chairing the hearing, "Well, you don't have that problem anymore because you've got a job," and hired him on the spot.This was a very bright guy.He was a good hire as well.

But, you know, just that, "Well, I can solve that problem.There are problems I can't solve, but I can help you in this context."And I think he looks for that whenever he encounters anybody.Again, strongest with the family of course, but his desire to be supportive and helpful is pretty universal, I think.

Biden in the Senate

So when you arrive in the mid-1980s and see him as a senator, it's after the car accident by a decade or so, and he's written about that as saying [Mike] Mansfield (D-Mont.) asks him to stay and not give up the job and that he ends up finding sort of a kind of family in the Senate and a kind of support.Could you see that, a connection in that way, with him and that institution?

Again, you know, I was 10 years old in 1972, but—do the math, 61 now—but I know how the senior senators rallied around him after the accident, and I think there was a sense of collegiality that was both already there but that he deepened, I mean that he sought out.He sought out that feeling of family and "We're in this together" on both sides of the aisle, from the very beginning of his career.

The Senate staff felt very much like a family, which was striking to me coming in new in the mid-80s.Some of my best friends are people from that first Senate staff I worked with.

But I think, again, another thing that, the continuity of it, that wanting to help people.He was not a legislative, wonky guy; you knew that right away.It was about, "How does this affect real people?What's this going to do for real people?"And I think that was the lens they looked—all the work challenges went—he looked at through that lens.How are real people going to be affected every day?I think that came from his dad, too.

Some people have suggested that's almost a life method, even on foreign policy: "What's this other leader like?" as opposed to "What's the balance of power?"Is that what you saw, that he's a guy who evaluates things in personal relationships?Is that his main skill?

Well, I've been thinking a lot about this lately because I'm going to give a commencement speech, and the topic is leadership.And he does both.He has those ideals in mind, right?He's got that commitment to civil rights.If you read the epilogue of Promise Me, Dad, you know that when he was going to Ukraine to give that speech, and to try to drive home the point, "This is your obligation now," an opportunity and obligation.I mean, he has that commitment to democracy, to justice, to equal rights, to all those kind of big capital-letter principles, constitutional principles, but combines that with the human piece.

I think there's a kind of idealism, pushing-the-arc kind of idealism with what we can do today, for real people, right now.

What about ambition?You arrived there right before the 1987 run.Is he an ambitious guy who wants to be president?What drives him to run that first time, to run the other times?

Again, I don't want to pretend to know more than I do.My sense of his commitment to service is "This is what I can do; this is what I can do."And yeah, you're driven to do something—ambition seems—I mean, “ambition” is kind of a loaded word, isn't it?It shouldn't be, because you need drive and ambition to do a lot of important things.They wouldn't happen otherwise.

But I think there's this continuum that people exist on wanting to be something and wanting to do something, right?And everybody in public service is somewhere on there.And I think he's more toward the side of wanting to do something than wanting to be something.

I think, as with most of us, as we get older, our goals get refined, and I think he—right now, I don't think of him as an ambitious guy at all.Is that because he's achieved it, because he's president?I don't think it's just that.I think it's, again, “What can I do?,” not “What can I be?”

It's interesting, the difference between the two, the younger Biden and the older Biden, because sometimes when I look at that earlier footage, there is a sense of, if not ambition, of a little bit of a swagger.Is what he was as this young senator, this guy running for president?

There was a little bit of a swagger.I mean, there's some funny stories, like an early Foreign Relations Committee meeting which took place in some room in the basement with a big metal door and it was senators only, no staff, and he was running a little late, and he opened the door, and it slammed into the file cabinets and made a big noise, and he sat down, and I guess it was Kissinger, I think, who was conducting the briefing, and he didn't know who he was.And he looks like a baby, right?So he thought he was a staff guy.He says, "I just want to remind you, this is not for staff; this is senators only."And somebody passed him a note saying, "That's Sen. Biden from Delaware."He said, "Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Biden."He said, "That's all right, Mr. Dulles."

So there are things like that that require a certain swagger to do, right?So I think, yeah, he had a little swagger as a young man, not uniquely so.

Biden’s 1987 Run for President

Enough that he runs for president in that year with a lot of other Democrats running for president.What did you see?

Seven total, as I recall.

What did you see in him then that was driving him, that was at the heart of that young guy running for president?

1987 was a heck of a year.It was the Bork nomination, and at that point, I was working on the Judiciary Committee staff, so there was that.Richard Ben Cramer was writing What It Takes, so he was around.The campaign was going on, so there was that.And then toward the end—and then we had the aneurysm later, right?So it was an amazing however many months that was.

So much going on.And what I saw was a guy who knows that every decision is about values and who wanted to bring that to that presidential election.Every decision's about values; every decision's about what we do affects real people.Let's not make it about fighting among the seven of us; let's have a really good debate.

And the same was true in the Bork hearings.That was a very civil—inside the hearing room, that is.There was some other stuff outside, but inside the hearing room, that was a very civil, high-level, high-minded debate where the issues weren't just talked about by constitutional scholars; they were talked about by people who were affected.

Was it also a learning moment for him?When the [Neil] Kinnock scandal happens, you can see the footage of him in those press conferences, both apologetic and angry and frustrated.What was the effect of that?He'd been winning elections in Delaware before that, and now he has an attack on his integrity.

Again, I don't want to pretend to know more than I do, but I think to have an attack on his integrity was about as hard a thing as he could field, and I think he fielded it very well.The Kinnock, in particular, that was a passage in speeches he'd used over and over with attribution, and he didn't attribute it once.So that was sort of—I felt like that was a bit of a cheap shot, because it's not like he never—again, this is something he'd done hundreds of times and attributed it 99% of the time.

So I felt that was a bit of a cheap shot.But then it gets to be one of those threads you pull when once people are looking for flaws in any of our lives, they're going to have a field day.

So I think it was very hard for him.But I think he thought, OK, I didn't do that as well as I could have.I'm going to do this hearing as well as I can.And I think there was an element of, “I wasn't good enough about this, but I was good enough about this.”

So the Bork hearings really had almost a balancing effect, at least in my mind.It was such a look-in-the-mirror moment for the country, right?It was kind of like, what's government about?What's the Constitution about?—"Who are we" kind of moment for the country.And that was weighty enough to counterbalance the personal attacks and the "I could have handled that better, or I could have done better, but this we did well."

Is there something as you observe it about Joe Biden?Because, you know, he does not stop, in a lot of ways.You know, he's going to consider running for president, he's going to run for president multiple times.He's going to lose primaries; he's going to lose elections; he's going to keep going.Is there something about the guy you know that helps us understand how he keeps going, how he steps out of the one press conference, pulling out of the race, and goes into a hearing room or goes into the next election?

Again, my own observation.I think he has a sense that there's always something important to do, so let's focus on that.Let's focus on the next—there's always something important to do, so let's do that.Leave what's behind behind, and let's do what's important to do now.That's my observation.I don't know if he would describe it that way.

I think there is an element of, this is how I enact my faith; this is how I enact my values; this is how I enact my—honor my family, past, present and future.So I think that's all in there forming that drive.

If you ask me how he has endured what he has endured and kept valuing service the way he has, I have no idea.I think it's amazing.I am so in awe of it.

… It's after that '87—we talked a little bit about the car accident, but it's after that race that he has the brain aneurysm.Can you tell me about how you got news of that moment and how scary was that?

It was really scary.I was the junior speechwriter on the staff at that point.I had a senior colleague, Bob Cunningham, who's no longer with us, who'd been with the senator a long time, the then-senator a long time.And Bob called and said this has happened, and I got in the car and drove from Delaware to Washington, because I figured that's where there was going to be the need for the most action.If we were going to have to write anything, if we were going to have to deal with press, I thought it was going to come out of that office.

So that was my therapy, I guess, for myself.I jumped in the car, drove to D.C. and sat at my desk.It was one of those stand-your-post moments; that's all you can do.It was very scary.

And I think, to him—and he and I didn't talk about this directly, but secondhand—he couldn't believe that his kids might lose a second parent; his boys might lose another parent; that that was inconceivable; that there was something so wrong about that.So I think that was his big fear.His biggest fear was for them.

I think he's written about it, too.… Did you get a sense, too, that it—did it put the other stuff in context?The '87, you know—

Really fast.Yeah, really fast.Everything's in perspective like that, right?So yeah, that was a check-yourself kind of moment about what really matters.

Again, I remember I drove his parents down from Wilmington to Washington to see him.He was at Walter Reed in President Reagan's suite.President [Ronald] Reagan had said, "We'll care for you.Use my suite at Walter Reed for your care," at that point.So I had driven Mr. and Mrs. Biden down, and I was going to take them home.I went over to the hospital to pick them up and was guided into the president's hospital room—bandaged head, black eyes, and he lights up and he starts telling his surgeon who's in the room trying to do his job, "This is Tracey.She's a great writer.Let her tell you about the kind of stuff she's writing."I was like, "Dude, he does not want to hear about me right now.This is a really busy guy taking care of a really important person," you know?So I started to put my arms around the Bidens and said, "We'll get out of your way now, Doc."

But that's another example of, "This person's great.You should talk.Let's talk about this."Another example of that that was more recent: When Beau [Biden] was sick, one of our sons had a football play that was featured on Philadelphia television, and the president called our son to tell him, "Hey, that's such a great play.That was really great.Congratulations."To be able to do that, to be able to celebrate not just an achievement, but a kind of healthy physical kind of achievement in someone else's family, in someone else's child, when your own child is so sick, that's Joe Biden.

These were two of the hardest times in his life, and he put the attention on somebody else.And in those two cases, it was my family, but it could have been a lot of other people.

Biden’s Irish Catholic Identity

In moments like that, like dealing with the aneurysm or dealing with Beau, does he talk about faith?Can you see the role of his Catholicism in those moments, or is it a personal thing?

My observation is they kind of go together.Faith, may be—I mean, the one funny time about Catholicism, he was somewhere where people were talking about school prayer, saying we should have written school prayers, and he said, "Well, who's going to write this prayer?If I write it, here's what it's going to sound like: 'Hail Mary, full of grace,'" and people were like, "Ew."It was not an audience that was especially receptive to that.

So he had it in perspective.It wasn't like you couldn't use it to lighten a moment as well, but I think faith and family and values are all very intertwined for him.And again, I'm hesitant to speak for him.That's my observation: Faith, family and values are very intertwined, and service.I guess that's one of the values.

He's written about or talked about this idea of the “Irishness” of life, and there's ups and downs, but don’t get too high.Have you heard that from him?Is that part of his approach to life?

Oh, yes.He was always quoting Grandfather Finnegan or—there was a lot of Irishness in there, and it was more fun than dire, in my experience.But I do think—he used that Seamus Heaney poem in a Senate campaign and then in his first presidential campaign.And when he got elected and we were down at the riverfront in Wilmington, because it was, of course, the COVID election, when he got elected president, that was the phrase that came into my mind, was "hope and history rhyme" right there.That's how it felt to people, I think, who had known him a long time, been around the family a long time, been on staff a long time.It was, OK, there it is: "hope and history rhyme."And that was a phrase, a bit from an Irish poem he often quoted.So every now and then, you get those moments.

Biden and His Sons

When you would see him with the boys, what was that like, the relationship between him and Beau and Hunter?

It was, is, exactly how he talks about it.They’re “Honey.”"Hey, honey, a kiss.”Beau, I think—I'm a second kid, so I sort of always had a soft spot for Hunter myself.I'm a bit older than the boys, and I was always sort of bonding with Hunter.

But Beau was just a great guy.He had a wonderful, wonderful heart.He cared so much about things.And it was his dad, a little less guarded maybe, at least at the same age.Beau's heart was right there.You could see it.And he spoke from there.And I think that that made the relationship easier, that he was so open and warm.

But these guys, these three guys had been through hell together, along with Valerie.And when Jill came, they hit the jackpot in terms of they had Mommy; they lost Mommy; they got Mom.And they hit the jackpot with Jill, and they knew it.

But to go through so much together, it's almost like they were always healing together.That was always happening: healing and moving forward together.But again, the way he talks about family is exactly what I've seen.There's no disconnect between what he says and what I've observed.

The way he talks about it or has written about it, thinking of giving up the Senate seat and of traveling back every day he's going to be there. ...

Yeah, it would have been very different.They'd been looking at houses in D.C.And the accident, he wanted, "OK, we're not going to change anything in these kids' lives."Valerie came in.That commitment was—again, what he says is exactly what I saw, what I observed.

I had a neat project at one point; I just got to go around collecting anecdotes from people who had known the then-senator for a long time.I forget whether it was for a Senate campaign or just for the historical record.But the late Tom Lewis, who had been a friend of the senator's forever, like high school, and worked for him for a long time, he told a story about when Beau was a little guy, he was in his dad's office, sitting on his lap, and a CEO, some kind of business leader had a meeting scheduled and came in and sat down.He said, "Oh, your son's here. I'll wait. I'll wait."And the senator thought the guy was kidding.He said, "Oh, it's all right. He's not going to tell anybody."He's sort of making a joke.And he said, "No, it's all right. I'll wait."And the senator said, "Well, you can wait in the outer office then, because he's not going anywhere; Beau's not going anywhere."

So that is an emblematic kind of story.And again, there's a little swagger to that tale as well, a little like, "It's Biden, Mr. Dulles," right?But it's a pretty charming swagger where you—and the value of, "My son's not going anywhere.You can wait till he's done, because he's not leaving for you."

… Were you surprised to see Beau interested in politics, run for attorney general?

Not really.I think that was a natural direction of service for him, too.He valued service a lot, and I think that made sense.He thought it was a way for him to serve: "This is something I can do."So no, it didn't surprise me. It didn't surprise me.

Did you see his dad in Beau?He said that he had the good parts of me and he was going to be a future president.When you would look at Beau, did you see—could you see it through Joe's eyes?

I would never criticize the president when he was talking about him, him and Beau, but there was a way that Beau was his dad 2.0, that he did have almost all of his strengths, without some of his—what you talked about as a young man.Beau never had—was not a swagger guy.He was not, in terms of his public service, he was not—Beau was a sweet guy.He was a dear man.And I think I would agree with the president, I'll put it that way, that Beau was himself a next evolution.

The tragedies, the car accident, then Beau's illness and death.When you see him in that period or after, when you see the vice president at that point, how does he deal with something like that after all they've been through?

Again, it's hard for me to fathom how he, and also Jill in the case of Beau's death, and Valerie, it's hard for me to fathom how they've done it and remained as committed to a life of service as they have.I think the big motivation there is he thinks it's what Beau wanted.He's confident that it's what Beau would have wanted him to do.So I think that's the driver, probably, in the case of that.

After the car accident, it was almost getting talked into it: “The country needs you.We need you to help end the war.We need you on civil rights.”But I think after Beau died, there was a feeling of Beau would have wanted us to go on.[They] weren't ready right away to do it as a family, but that that is what Beau would have wanted, which I—you know, again, I don't want to claim to be a family insider more than I am, but I did know Beau pretty well, and I think that's undoubtedly true, that it's what he would have wanted.

Biden Doesn’t Run in 2016

The president titles his book Promise Me, Dad, and he puts a lot in that.Beau doesn't say "Run for president"; he says, "Promise me that you'll be OK."But he takes a lot from that moment, doesn't he?

He certainly did.And again, how he did it, it’s beyond my capacity to imagine where that strength came from and continues to come from.

Were you surprised that he didn't run in 2016 and to see him at the Rose Garden announcing, after all of these years in politics, he was going to not run?

I think he was trying to take care of his family, which certainly is not surprising.If everybody wasn't ready, he wasn't going to do it, and I don't think everybody was ready.So the fact that he was taking care of his family, doing what he thought he needed to do to take care of his family, is certainly not surprising.

I'm glad he came back and they were able to summon the will and the strength to do that, because it was really important.

Did you see him in that period?Because one of the things we wondered is, you know, after the car accident, he has the job at the Senate to sort of keep him going, and there's reports that during Beau's illness, he says, "Fill up my schedule to keep me going."And here he is for the first time out of office and dealing with grief.What is that period like, and watching the election of Donald Trump at the same time?

I don't remember having a lot of personal contact with him at that time.When I saw him in Delaware during that period, he was usually at grandchildren's games and track meets and things like that.So that's what I saw.I saw a granddad, and I knew he was working on a book.But I did not see him a lot during that time.

You know, when you have a relationship that's decades long and a couple of generations long between the families, it tends to be more just seeing—a common eye roll, a common laugh, something like that.A lot is assumed.There's not always a lot of conversation about anything other than personal stuff, family stuff.

I think we know at least from 2017 he's thinking about running again and whether it's his time to reenter.I don't know if you have any insight into that or just what you thought when you heard he was going to do it again.

I thought he had the potential to kind of rescue the country because of where he was in his own maturity as a public servant and what was needed.I thought, yeah, this could work.Again, I did not talk to him about it.I was not an insider on this decision by any means.So this is just my observation.I thought, this could work, this could work.

Biden Runs in 2020

… Having known him when he was the young candidate back in '87 and now watching him in 2020, how had he changed?What was it about this?Because we're trying to figure out why this Joe Biden is the one that gets elected president after all of the other attempts.

I think he's at his best.I think he's been at his best in recent years.Again, I don't know how he's pulled it off, given what he's had to go through, but I think he has—there's a "hope and history rhyme" kind of thing to what the country needs and what he is meeting, right?

I think the importance of the values he represents has become more apparent to more people.I also think—and this is going to sound ironic, but he's still, in terms of the spirit that he brings to his office and to his work, he's the line from Hamilton: “young, scrappy and hungry.”He's got this youthful spirit and this view of this country that is young, scrappy and hungry.And that hasn't changed.

Again, I think there's just a more mature version of it, less swagger, more "Here we go; keep rowing," right, that maybe sells better, and the moment is more attuned to what he represents.

It's interesting when you say what he represents, because that was sort of a question in '87: What is it that he's running on, and what does he stand for?And is it different between '87 and 2020?Does he know more?

I think in some ways the country's caught up to him, because I think that idea of "Every decision is about values; we keep pushing on that arc while making things work every day," I think that appeals to a lot of people.People on political extremes tend to overestimate the appeal of their approach.Here's a guy saying, "Yep, these are the values we stand for.We can achieve anything if we do it together, and here's how we're going to make it work," somebody who can who can do all that.I think when he was younger, people believed that he was an eloquent spokesman for the values but weren't sure he knew how to get it done, and he's proved that he does.

Did you talk to him after he's elected president?He wanted to run for all of these years, and he finally does in a moment of great crisis and great stakes in that election.What is it like for him to finally be the president-elect?

This was the pandemic election.There were not a lot of people back in that room, right?And I was not one of the five who were back there, down there at the riverfront.And of course we had to wait for the results for a little while, we all recall, so that I was staying up all night watching the results come in, just feeling that so much was at stake.

So I don't know how he felt in the moment.I suspect he was thinking about Beau, I suspect he was thinking about his parents, and thinking, “Our values, everything you guys gave to me, everything I learned from you, all the inspiration—especially in the case of Beau—you gave to me, here it is.This is not my accomplishment.This is something that matters, that we can do.And there's like seven people in this office, everyone who's inspired me and taught me and gotten me here.And we can do this.”

And again, that's me guessing, based on history, how he was feeling.But again, my own feeling was "‘hope and history rhyme’; here we are.”

Is it a sense of destiny for him because he wanted to maybe be a priest and people said he saw politics as a vocation, and he arrives at this moment?Does he think about things in those types of terms, or do you think about it in those types of terms?

I wouldn't say destiny.I would say calling, answering a call versus “I'm destined to be this”; more "I have answered the call and the moment and I met. And now we go to work."Again, there's always something important to do ahead.

Biden’s Age

We're now moving towards the next election, and he's faced these questions about his age, about is he sharp enough.And in some ways he's faced questions like that since he was a little kid and he had a stutter, and he faced questions about that when he arrived at the Senate, and who is this young guy, and is he a serious person?How does he approach questions like that and a moment like this, where people are asking questions very similar to the ones that they asked when he was 7?

That's interesting, I actually hadn't thought about it in that context, that kind of continuity of that question.When people asked me about his age, I'm like, one, have you seen his schedule that he's maintained over the last number of years?

And I tell this story: My husband and I had a chance to go to a state dinner fairly early on—I think it was the first one after the pandemic—and it went to, like, 1:00, 2:00 in the morning.Everything was happening later than it was supposed to.Everybody in the room was tired except one guy.He was like, "Where are you all going?Let's stay.Let's have some more music."Everybody else was dragging ourselves to the cars.He had more energy than anybody in that room.

So I'm not sure.I think any challenge will energize him, always has, right?The stutter?OK, I'm going to beat the stutter.The “You're not a serious guy”?OK, I'm going to do a few things that matter here.

So I think he is up to any challenge that anybody can throw at him.

Does it get under his skin?Go back to '87 for a second, where you witness it more firsthand, and one of the things is with a voter in New Hampshire who is questioning his law school record, and he's pretty quick to insist that he was smart enough, and it gets him into some trouble.Is there something about him that needs to respond to an accusation that he's not that smart and doesn't deserve to be there?

Well, there is such a thing as an Irish temper, right?Irish temper is a cliché for a reason, that phrase.So yeah, he gets mad.But what I've seen is he gets mad and then he decides, "I don't have time to be mad because there's something important to do."And that's what I saw in '87.

Yeah, he was mad.I think when tragedies have happened to him, he's been mad, but he also finds a way to deal with it and say, "We don't have time to do this because we have to do the next important thing, piece of work."And that's what I saw in '87.

He was really mad about being questioned in that way.

Yeah, and he was mad at himself for a bad moment like the one you mentioned.We'll all have bad moments, but they're not all on TV, right?So he was mad at himself for his bad moments.And he was mad at the—again, not his word, my word—cheap shots.But there was stuff to do.There's always stuff to do.And if you focus on the stuff to do, you get through the emotional part, I think, for him.I'm not as good at it.

Yeah, it's interesting because you can sort of see a parallel there where the Hur report comes out and he calls that press conference and he says—he's got Beau's rosary, and he says, "They accused me of not remembering when he died."And you can see that same Joe Biden from '87 there.

Yes, you do. Yes, you do.Challenges to his sense of himself, I think, energize him.Yeah, it can come out as anger, but it's also energizing in a productive way.

And in that case, he has the State of the Union after that, right?… What did you see when you saw that?

I saw both, you know– first of all, he was the best grown-up in the room and at the same time the most fiery, right?He wasn't going to take it.Like you said, that's a pattern, right?A challenge to how smart you are or how serious you are, how smart you are because you stutter or whatever, and then, "OK, you want to see it?I'll bring it."

This is not going to sound related, but I think it is in terms of personality a little bit.On 9/11, I was working in this building right behind us that's all glass, right, and all of a sudden, all the aircraft were gone, right?And President Bush is taken to an undisclosed location.And Sen. Biden takes some poor reporter up on the roof of the Senate Office Building to say, "We're still here."And Beau and I were both like, "Come home. Just come home.""No. We're still here.We're still working.This government is still functioning, asking the president to come back.Let's show them.Let's stand on the roof of the building."It was a little bit of this, right?

So sometimes that response to a challenge can make you go, “Oh, just come home, please.”But that's who he is.That's just like, “You think you've got me, or you think you've got us.Not even close. Not even close.”

Biden and the 2024 Election

Just to bring us up to right now, that Joe Biden in this election, down in the polls, with the stakes being a return of Donald Trump, with people on the left pulling their hair out— the Joe Biden that you know at this moment, facing all of that, how does he deal with a campaign like that, a challenge like that, questions about him?

Again, I don't want to speak for him and would never presume to do so, but I have a lot of confidence in his ability to respond in this situation and help people to believe in what he can do.He always has. He always has.

It's almost like one of those challenges that he feels he needs to—

—bring it. Yep.“You think you got me?Not even close.”

So one question we ask everybody is, from your perspective, what's the choice that voters are facing in November as they go cast a ballot?What's the choice in this election?

Wow.This is just me talking, right?I'm not speaking for the president, the party or anybody else.

From your perspective.

From my perspective, it's not going back to chaos; keeping some sense of who this country is, who our allies can rely on, how we treat each other; expansion versus contraction of rights.Again, how we talk to each other; not putting a stamp of approval on meanness that we've seen leads to violence, right?Not putting a stamp of approval on demeaning other people; instead, elevating our value of human dignity, as well as our value of constitutional principles and a real system of justice and a real system of government that's guided by principles instead of by a chaotic personality.

I respect people who have different views than I do because there's a reason they got there, but I think the president is the best person to talk to those people about this being in their self-interest; that it is not good for any of us to live in a country that is run by personal whim instead of by principle and law, and that this president—I remember when he was elected the first time, and his message to Trump supporters was, “Let's give each other a chance.”And I think that will be his message again.“I understand that people have their views for a reason.Let's give each other a chance.Let's do this together and be the best country we can be, instead of maybe the most satisfying in the moment for some kind of personal need.”

I'm not saying that super well—I'm sorry—but it's, “Do you want to live in America, or do you want to live somewhere else?And if you have felt disempowered or left out of your country, let's work on that.Let's work on having that not be true anymore.That's important.But we don't have to go to not being America in order to do that.”

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