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Valerie Jarrett

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Valerie Jarrett

Fmr. Obama Adviser

Valerie Jarrett served as a senior adviser to President Barack Obama from 2009 to 2017.

The following interview was conducted by FRONTLINE’s Jim Gilmore on August 21, 2020. It has been edited for clarity and length.

This interview appears in:

President Biden

The Choice 2020

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Obama Selects Biden as Vice President

We'll go back to 2007-2008 and the choice of Joe Biden to become vice president.First, though, let’s start with him, while he’s still running.There’s a famous story that became front-page news that Joe had made a gaffe where he said—he was talking about Obama, and he said something like, “Obama’s articulate, bright and clean,” and it caused some reverberations against him.It was what everybody called a famous Joe Biden gaffe.When you were—within the campaign, the Obama campaign, how was that viewed?

A big shrug, starting with President Obama, who said, “You know, I know what he meant.”And so I think it got blown way out of proportion.And again, that’s, I think, a part of leadership.President Obama didn’t have time to let an offhanded comment from somebody who he knew and respected hurt him, just like Vice President Biden didn’t let the kerfuffle he had with Sen. [Kamala] Harris get in his way of selecting her for his vice president.So I think these are two leaders who are able to have enough self-confidence and ability to take a punch without it affecting them in any way.

The months after that, there were lots of conversations that we learned about later between the two men, and the relationship started to grow.Can you talk about that?Leading up to the request and the decision for him to be vice president, how did they start communicating, and how did a relationship that really didn’t exist, a strong relationship, before that, how did it begin to grow as they were communicating back and forth during that summer?

Well, you know, campaigns have a way of testing you, and you get to know the people who are your opponents really well, and you see what they’re made of.And I think after Vice President Biden withdrew, then at that point, he became more of an adviser and a counselor.President Obama did the same thing that Vice President Biden did after the primary season: He wanted to make sure that all of the people who ran against him were inside the tent helping him strengthen the party.And because of Vice President Biden’s experience, particularly on foreign affairs, it was important to President Obama to pick his brain and get as much knowledge from him as he could as he prepared for the general election.

So I think out of competition came mutual respect, and mutual respect led to a real relationship of friendship and someone who President Obama—and Joe Biden became somebody that President Obama looked to for advice and counsel.

What was President-to-be Obama looking for in a vice president?Why does he eventually turn towards Joe Biden in deciding that he probably is the best pick?

I think he was looking for someone who shared his values and perspective on what it takes to lead our country.He wanted somebody whose strengths complemented President Obama’s weaknesses.He said—in jest, but I think it was true—he needed someone with a little gray hair.He realized that he was young and that he wanted people to feel confident that he was surrounded by a team that did have vast experience, particularly in foreign policy.

He was looking for someone who would be a true counselor, not afraid to speak his mind; someone who would be willing to challenge him, but also recognize that there’s only one president.And I think that he saw over the course of the campaign that Vice President Biden had that skill set.

And he liked him.He liked him a lot.He liked him, and he respected him.And I think that he just wasn’t looking for someone in title only.He knew, particularly as we moved through the general election and—to the general election, that he needed a partner who was going to be really able to go in there and help him lead our country.And that’s exactly what Vice President Biden turned out to be.He didn’t necessarily know that when he started the search process that it would end up with Vice President Biden.And as he said during the Democratic convention, he did not know that he was going to find a brother and someone who he could not just respect but love.

And that takes time to develop, but he has pretty good instincts when it comes to people.And I think he knew by the time it was—by the time he was ready to make the choice that he and Joe Biden would grow old together.

… Is there also a reality that the diversity would be a good idea, an older white guy who had been in the Senate as long as Joe had been?Was there also a reality to the fact that for America back in 2008, it was also good to have a diverse ticket?

I think so.I think President Obama believes that diversity is a strength and that the country was absorbing a lot picking their first Black president.And so, having someone also who had years of experience in the Senate—President Obama still was a pretty newcomer to the Senate at that point—someone who had vast experience in foreign affairs, who had the gravitas on the world stage that he could feel comfortable delegating responsibility to him, and I thought that—I think he thought they made a good team and that the appeal to the country would be broader than if he picked somebody who had just the same experience and looked just like he did.

The story is, according to Vice President Biden, is that he gets a call on the train; he’s on Amtrak, as—

As usual.

And President Obama—to-be President Obama asked if he could vet him, and Joe says no.Do you know anything about that conversation, how it went and how Joe had to be convinced?

I really don’t.I think perhaps the vice president didn’t take it seriously initially.But he certainly did go along with it and went through an extensive background check, which is really unpleasant but necessary.So I don’t know the details of that conversation, but I do know that he did fully embrace the idea of being the vice president.I think he was honored to be selected.I bet he was surprised to be selected.

We have a wonderful story from Dr. Biden talking about how she told him, “Joe,” and his mother—

His mother.Yeah, I did hear his mother weighed in heavily and said: “You have no choice but to do this.When the president—potential president of the United States asks you to do something, the answer’s always yes.”

Biden’s Role as Vice President

So as vice president, what did he bring to the administration, some of the things that he was involved in that were important?From your years in the White House with them, what were the strengths of the vice president, and how did that relationship grow?

I think President Obama knew that because of Vice President Biden’s long experience in the Senate that he would competently be able to represent President Obama.President Obama wouldn’t have to worry if he gave him a big assignment whether it would be done in an extraordinary way.

So, for example, when we first got to Washington, obviously the economy was in a free fall, and President Obama asked Vice President Biden to oversee the Recovery Act, which was a big piece of business—$800 billion that needed to go out the door as quickly as possible without any scandals, get to the state and local government where it needed to, help jump-start industries like clean energy, innovation technology that needed a jump and a boost, but also we needed to create some jobs.And so he knew that he could—President Obama knew he could give that to Vice President Biden, and it would be well managed.

On the world stage, Vice President Biden had relationships with world leaders everywhere, and they trusted him; they knew that he was as good as his word.

In the Senate, Vice President Biden to this day enjoys relationships on both sides of the aisle.And certainly back then, those were his recently former colleagues, and he knew that he could call them and they would take his call, and that he could go and thrash issues out with them with a degree of comfort that President Obama didn’t have because he hadn’t known them as long as Vice President Biden had had them.

Vice President Biden was very interested in, because of his long history with Violence Against Women [Act], sexual assault on college campuses.And so he took that issue on.

So there were lots of substantive issues that he took on, including, for example, another would-be winding down of troops in Iraq.Again, strong relationships that he had on the ground, well respected by our military.

And so if you look at kind of the full array of issues that both Vice President Biden and President Obama were dealing with when they took office, it was important to President Obama to have that partnership.

And then Vice President Biden and President Obama started having regular lunches together, just the two of them, and they, as one does when one breaks bread with somebody, you start to talk about your family, and President Obama’s daughters and Vice President Biden’s granddaughters became friends, and so they began to socialize together.And the families began to weave a relationship that was beyond just the two men.Both Mrs. Obama and Dr. Biden focused on military families together and bonded around many of the stories that they heard of those men and women who sacrificed greatly so that their loved ones could go and put themselves in harm’s way.

So there were just lots of interweaving relationships that began to develop right from the very beginning, right from the convention truly forward.And as a result of that, after eight years, you had really a very tight bond among the four of them.

Biden’s Role on Race During the Obama Administration

And another area that the vice president helped out on, and somewhat ironically, was that there was a sensitivity to President Obama, that he didn’t want to be seen as the first Black president for the Black population; he wanted to be president of the United States.And so there was a sensitivity there about some racial issues.How did Joe Biden even help out in that way? …

Well, he was a good sounding board.I mean, so, for example, when there was the kerfuffle over Skip Gates being arrested by police in his own home, I think Vice President Biden decided to join that “beer summit” because it would make Sgt. [James] Crowley feel a little bit more comfortable, not so outnumbered, would you say.And so I think he was there, probably provided comfort to those who were unsure about this new Black president, and so there was a kind of senior-statesman aspect to it and somebody who could speak their language and give some assurances that President Obama was really looking out for everybody; he wasn’t trying to be just the president of Black America.

And then the other point I think is important is that Joe Biden was a sounding board, a person that President Obama could trust completely.He could confide in him.He could say: “Well, what do you think about this?What do you think will be the repercussions if we do that?”And having somebody who is your close counselor in that respect is invaluable.

There was also blowback from some people in America because they didn’t like the idea that the president of the United States was a Black man.

You think?

Yeah, do you think—Joe Biden got that.He seems to have understood that this was a historic moment for America and a very important moment and that—did he in fact take some of the weight of that situation and help out in going to Black churches sometimes and giving eulogies?The, the—2014, when the two officers were killed in New York, he went up there, and Dr. Biden talked about that very emotional time.What was the reality behind that relationship that was so close that on issues that were sensitive Joe Biden was able to fill in?

Well, I think certainly those who might have been dubious of the first Black president probably felt a certain degree of comfort having Vice President Biden there.The fact that Vice President Biden was willing to be the vice president to this younger, less experienced Black man should have sent a very important message about the respect with which—the respect that he had for President Obama.So just the symbolism of that was a start.

But yes, I think he was there to provide not just counsel to President Obama, but counsel to people who were suspicious and validate, if you will, President Obama.And that was extremely helpful, too. …

You asked about Vice President Biden going and delivering eulogies, and I think one of his strengths is his compassion and his ability to make people feel that he feels their pain, that he is able to absorb it and share in it.And I think President Obama knew that Joe was comfortable with everybody, and so he could ask him to go anywhere, and he could walk in a room full of all Black people, or he could walk in a room full of, you know, white cops, and wherever, whatever the audience was, Joe met people where they are and had the ability to make them feel comfortable.

And so there was a certain security in knowing that if he asked the vice president to represent him, he would represent him well.

It worked both ways, it seemed, also for Joe Biden.In this eight-year relationship, and the work that they did together and the relationship that was so clearly a very close one between these two men, it gave—somebody told us it provided Biden the “Obama halo.”As came up in the campaign, there were issues that he was involved which were controversial, whether on busing or crime bills or whatever in the past.But for Joe Biden, that relationship also provided a lot of people, especially in the Black community, with an understanding that this guy was the real thing and he was true to his word.I mean, what did it do for Joe Biden, that relationship?

President Obama is the most popular person in the country in the Black community, perhaps second to his wife.And so the fact that he selected Vice President Biden not once but twice to be his partner in this sent a very powerful signal about how he felt about Vice President Biden.He could have had his choice of any one—any number of very well-qualified people to be his running mate, and he chose Joe Biden.So I do think that that sent a message.

And I think they helped each other.I think it was a mutually beneficial relationship.President Obama has often said Vice President Biden made him a better president.It was important to have somebody who shared his values but had different perspectives, had different relationships, different life experiences, willing to say, “This is what I think; this is what I feel; this is what I know.”

And I don’t know in our nation’s history a closer, more symbiotic relationship between a president and a vice president, particularly with men who come from very different worlds.It worked.

Beau Biden’s Death

Another horrible thing that happened to the vice president during his time as the vice president, of course, is the loss of his son Beau—a very special relationship that he had with his son.Some people called Beau “Joe 2.0.”How did that change him?What did it bring out about who he is?I mean, we have plenty of people talking about stories of at Beau’s funeral he stood for hours and hours and hours consoling people that were attempting to console him.What did that experience—did it change him at all, or what does it tell us about Joe Biden?

Well, Joe Biden loved Beau Biden.And of course all fathers love their sons, but it was a very special relationship.And I think the pain began when Beau was first diagnosed.And Vice President Biden and Dr. Biden were tapping into medical experts around the country, trying to find the ones who could give him the best possible treatment at the same time as he’s vice president of the United States, a huge responsibility.

And I know that he used those lunches with President Obama to really talk about the anguish and the pain he was going through.And he was always hopeful.I remember him saying to me—it couldn’t have been more than a month before Beau’s death—“I think we’re going to pull this through.I think we’re going to turn it around.I think he’s going to be OK.”And I don’t know if he was talking to me or talking to himself.But he had to keep that hope going that Beau would survive.

I think from what I’ve heard, the conversations that Beau had with him near the end of his life were transformational.Beau was more worried about his dad than he thought his dad should be worried about him.He’s like: “What’s going to happen to you, Dad?I want you to be OK.I want—I’m going to die, and I want to know you’re going to be OK.”And I think that the strength that Beau had, Vice President Biden tapped into to enable him to persevere, to go forward after that tragedy.

And let’s face it: He had already dealt with the horrendous loss of his first wife and his daughter, and at a very young age, what a trauma, a sudden trauma.And so he had had experience grieving.And I think, you know, he must have thought, how could this be happening to me again?

And Beau wanted him to be strong, and he told his father: “I want you to be strong.I don’t want you to give in to this grief.You have a—I need you to help take care of my family.You’ve got to take care of our family.”And I think that that gave Biden strength.

And to this day, I’m sure he can hear Beau’s voice whenever he doubts himself, because the other thing about Beau is that Beau really believed in his dad.It was not—that was a two-way street.He really believed that his dad was born to lead this country; he had the strength and the character and the integrity, all of the qualities that you might want in a leader.And he wanted to push his father to be the best he could be.

And so I think that Vice President Biden hears Beau’s voice a lot and that it inspires him; it motivates him; it comforts him no doubt.And it has probably made him a stronger and certainly a better man.

He was so strong in his belief in service that he thought in 2016 about running for president.There was a reality there: Of course he was mourning his son; he got into it late.There was also the reality that a lot of people in the White House, including the president, as Joe writes about, believed that it really was not the best time for him to do that; that Hillary Clinton seemed to be the right person at that point.Talk about that reality.And it’s also fascinating because I think afterwards he wonders if he should have run.But what was the reality in the White House at that point and the effect on Joe Biden?

Well, I think the death of Beau was soul crushing, and President Obama saw up close the impact that Beau’s death was having on the vice president.And he worried about him a lot.Was he going to be OK?And just as a brother would worry about another brother, I think President Obama worried about would Joe be all right.

And I do remember Vice President Biden telling me that Beau had said to him: “If you want to run, run.Don’t let my death stop you from doing what you want to do.I don’t—I would feel terrible if I got in the way of what I’ve always thought you should do.”And so he had this kind of, you know, push/pull of feeling his grief and yet at the same time trying to live up to Beau’s expectations of him.

And my sense was that his team around him was looking at the possibilities of him running, and that if he’d wanted to run, he would have run, and there’s nothing that anyone could have said that would have discouraged him from doing that.So I think President Obama didn’t say to him, “Run.”I don’t think he said to anybody, “You should run.”He believes that candidates have to make up their own mind, determine if they have the fire in their belly to do it.And so he didn’t see it as his role to say, “You should do this,” or, “You should not.”

But I do know he was worried about Joe in the aftermath of Beau’s death.And Secretary Clinton was right there, ready to go and determined to go.And a tough primary race would have been hard, I think, on the two of them.But I’ve never had the impression that President Obama actually weighed in and said, “You should,” or, “You should not do this.”He really wanted to be a sounding board.

Biden’s 2020 Presidential Run

I just have a few more questions about the race this year, the 2020 race.So he decides, lo and behold, that it’s now his time, that he’s going to run.Were you surprised?Why is Joe Biden running this time around?

He thinks the country needs his leadership.He thinks he has what it takes to take us towards the light.And I don’t know about you, but I’m ready go to towards the light.I think he has watched the chaos and the polarization and the toxicity of the last nearly four years, and he thinks he’s uniquely qualified to take us in a different, far better direction, "Building Back Better."

And you have to have that fire in your belly in order to do it.You have to think that you are absolutely the person for the job, because it is not easy.Campaigning is not easy, and it pales in comparison to actually what happens when you walk into that Oval Office.And nobody knows better than Vice President Biden, who hasn’t occupied that office, what it takes, because he spent so much time in there with President Obama.

And so he’s got that fire, and I think he knows that he will surround himself with a team that is competent and committed public servants that reflect the diversity of our country.And the fact that he has been able to pull and coalesce the Democratic Party, all his former opponents who were sharing the stage with him the night of his announcement—the night of his acceptance speech as the nominee reflects on what he knows, what he has known all along, which is that he has the strength to pull people together.He can have friends on the far right and the far left and be willing to sit down with them both and work out a compromise, work out a way of moving forward.It might not be 100 percent of what either side wants, but it will be good for the country.

And he’s had decades of experience doing that.And I think his moment is now.I think our country hungers for the kind of leadership he can provide.And the lightning in the bottle is knowing when it is your moment.And I think President Obama knew in 2007.There were so many people who told him: “You’re too young to run for office.Don’t.Wait.You know, get more experience in the Senate.”And he could just feel; he said, “This is my time.”And that’s why he announced his candidacy.And I think Vice President Biden has much the same feeling.This is his time.

The effect of Charlottesville on him—can you talk a little bit about that and why that moment in time, that event and the reaction of President Trump to it motivated him?

Vice President Biden has a very strong moral compass founded in his faith, and to consider white supremacists good people is contrary to the basics—basic tenets of his faith.And because he believes so strongly in equality and that we have to heal our racial wounds and be able to look at it honestly and move beyond them, to have a president in office who actually fuels those racial flames and tries to move us further apart he finds unconscionable.I think the office of president—I think the office of the presidency is something that Vice President Biden holds in great reverence, and he thinks it’s been abused.And he realizes the power of having watched what he and President Obama were able to do, to bring people together, he just thinks that what’s been happening now is pulling us apart.

And when he talks about rebuilding the soul of America, he means that from a perspective of faith.And because his faith is so strong, what he’s seen is so atrocious.I’m sure he couldn’t imagine that in our current time the president of the United States would support, in any way, white supremacy.It just is unconscionable to him.

He knew the campaign and the election would be a difficult path to take, even amongst the Democratic—during the Democratic primaries.There’s that famous moment where Sen. Kamala Harris brings up the issue of busing and Joe’s involvement with anti-busing legislation early on.When you saw that happen, what happened there—the response of the vice president to it, the surprise.Did he seem to be prepared for that?…

Well, I think he was surprised.He considered Kamala to be a friend.Her relationship with Beau, he knew it was very intimate, they were close-close, not just in terms of their working relationship, but their respect and fondness for one another.And so I think it did catch him a little bit by surprise.But look, he’s a seasoned politician.He is used to people saying tough things to him, and you take that punch, and you absorb it and you let it roll right off of you.

And so I think that a lot more was made of that moment by the press than was going on inside of Vice President Biden’s mind or his heart, or he never would have picked her as the nominee.And I think it shows that he’s a bigger man than that.He can take a punch or two, and it didn’t affect his view about her as a person, as a leader, and the strength that she would bring to his ticket.And I think you could see the warmness between them the day that he announced her as his running mate.Genuine fondness there.And the photographs that we’ve seen over the course of their time together are always ones of intimacy and fondness and mutual respect and admiration, which is probably why it took him a little bit by surprise when she said what she said.

Iowa and New Hampshire didn’t go well, the beginnings of the primaries.What was the feeling around the campaign as it was rolling on, and the early primaries were not the successes one would hope for?

Well, that depends upon who you speak with in the campaign.I can you tell you what Joe Biden would say, which is that it’s going to be a long slog.And he’s used to long slogs.This is the third time he’s running for president.That’s a long slog.So he was prepared to take the long haul.And he also knew and considered it a strength that he would be most appealing when we got to states that reflected the diversity of our country.I think he took great pride in winning South Carolina; that meant a lot to him.It meant a lot to him to have Congressman [Jim] Clyburn endorse him wholeheartedly, something that Congressman Clyburn did not do for Barack Obama in the primary.

And so he has the ability to take the long view, to recognize that there’s going to be a lot of punches along the way, and to have enough confidence in himself, both in terms of his ability to lead once elected but also to withstand this marathon of a campaign, and that he knew what he was getting into, having done it twice before, and he was prepared to go out there every single day and earn the trust and the respect of the American people.

And that’s a good test for the caliber of a person once they walk into the Oval Office.He is not thin-skinned; this is not about him.He could ride off into the sunset as one of the most popular vice presidents in our nation’s history, and the fact that he chooses to get in the arena again and fight at a time when our country desperately needs his leadership, I think speaks volumes of the man.

Biden’s South Carolina Primary Win

And the importance of South Carolina, the importance of Congressman Clyburn’s support, strong support of him, and the fact that the Black population of South Carolina came out very strongly for this man, what did all that mean towards the success of eventually becoming the nominee?And more, why?Why that support?

I think Vice President Biden winning South Carolina was similar to President Obama winning Iowa, right?I think no one expected President Obama to win Iowa.Here it is, a state that’s 90-plus percent white, and it gave him momentum going into the rest of the race. …I think for Biden, it was almost the opposite.Having lost Iowa and lost New Hampshire, he kept saying, “Yeah, but it is South Carolina that really reflects our country,” and when he won it, it was such a boost that I think it helped catapult him throughout the rest of the race.So it was transformative.It was as transformative to his race, I think, as Iowa was to President Obama.

And the importance of the Black vote to his victories?I mean, in our film, we talk about the fact that in ’72 he really won that, because it was such a close race, due to the Black vote in Wilmington.There have always been strong Black voter support for him.Why? Why is that?

Because I think the Black community knows that Joe cares about them, and that’s really important—cares, respects, wants to learn, wants to be an advocate.I mean, Joe has always been the one to fight for the folks who don’t have a voice at the table, always been there to try to make our country more equal, more fair, more just.And I think the Black community sees that in him.And then when President Obama selected him as his running mate, it affirmed what I think they already knew.

And so the Black community is essential to the Democratic Party; it is the backbone of the Democratic Party.And I think Vice President Biden took personal pride in being able to win a state that had such a large Black population.

As you said, he’s run two other times.He thought about it another time.He finally wins the nomination.What did that mean to him?

Oh, my gosh.I think it meant the world to him, you know.This has been a lifelong journey for him, and to now see that it’s within his grasp, and to have gone through a really tough primary with so many worthy candidates who were running against him, and to be the underdog and yet emerge as the leader, and be able to galvanize those who ran against him.I was so moved when Sen. [Bernie] Sanders spoke at the convention.Not only did he full-throatedly endorse Vice President Biden, but he said he would be willing as his partner to work with people who were conservative, that he wasn’t going to just represent the progressive wing.He understood that in order to move our country forward, we have to leave our doors open and be inclusive.

And I think Vice President Biden gets a lot of credit for bringing the progressive part of the party into the fold because they trust him.They know that Vice President Biden might not agree with them 100 percent on every issue, but they know that their core values are the same. …

Biden Asks Harris to Join the Ticket

Talk a little bit about the selection of Kamala Harris, how it defines how he has changed over time, what it says about him, who that man is today.This is a man who was involved in many civil rights issues throughout his life.He was also involved in the Anita Hill testimony during the Thomas hearings, and he got so much grief for that as not being sensitive enough to women, not being sensitive enough to Black women.Talk about that arc that he’s gone through of his life and where he is today and how that selection defines something very important about him.

I think Vice President Biden knows that the history books will reflect well on his commitment to equality.And how audacious was it for him to pick a Black woman as his running mate?Knowing he’s making history, knowing that she’s coming to the table as a strong, competent person who will speak her mind and tell him exactly what she thinks, how well that reflects on the strength of his own ego, that he can take that.And that he knows that our country will be better off with having had this incredibly talented Black woman as his partner.

And so I think that the symbolism is important, but, more importantly, the substance of what the two of them can accomplish will be forever a part of the American story, and I’m sure that that gives him an enormous sense of pride.

The Clarence Thomas Hearings

… And the Anita Hill testimony in the Thomas hearings, was that an important turning point for Joe Biden, for the Judiciary Committee, for the Senate of the United States?

I think in retrospect now.You know, we all have the benefit of hindsight.Looking back now—and I remember it at the time, and feeling, who—why can she not get a fair hearing?And the sausage-making that goes on behind the scenes, the public is unaware of.And so yeah, now, this many years later, of course I think we all wish it were handled differently.And the question isn’t, how do we go back and rewrite history?The question is, what do we learn from that history that helps and informs our decisions going forward?

And I mean, Joe Biden is about substance.He didn’t select Kamala Harris because she’s a Black woman.He selected her because he knows that she has the skill set and the life experiences that will make him a better president.And yes, it’s a wonderful plus that she’s a Black woman, and that will be historic, but that would mean nothing if he didn’t think she was going to be a good partner for him going forward.

And so I think the authenticity of the selection is also important.It was not simply a symbolic gesture.It meant a lot to him to have a teammate on his team with her credentials, her experience, her tenacity, her wit, her smile, all of which I think will enhance his life and make him a better president.

And it takes a certain kind of a 70-something white guy to appreciate the value of a younger Black woman who doesn’t hold her tongue.

The Choice Between Biden and Trump

The film, of course, is called <i>The Choice 2020</i>.So one last big overarching question: So what is the choice here between President Trump and Vice President Biden?How do you see it?What is the choice?

The choice is between Vice President Biden, who believes that we should celebrate the rich diversity of our country, that we should make sure that every American feels represented, and that he's there to lead the entire country.He just went through the Democratic convention, but he hopes to be the president for all of America.And I think what we've had the last nearly four years is a president that really only represented his base, that really only represented people who agreed with him; who retaliated against those who questioned his authority, questioned his ideas, questioned his perspective, even.

And I think in a president, you have to learn to absorb pain, because it's not about you.It’s about the country.And I think in Joe Biden we have somebody who has absorbed an enormous amount of pain in his life without it turning him bitter.And in fact, it has motivated him to think through about what is his greater purpose.

So there could not be two more differing approaches to governing our country than that of Vice President Biden compared to President Trump.

Obama and Biden’s Relationship

Any other thing you want to talk about?

Yes. Yes.I was—I want to talk a little bit about—I want to talk about the unusual intimacy of the relationship between Vice President Biden and President Obama.And I think one of the best examples of that intimacy that everyone had a chance to see was at Beau’s funeral, when President Obama didn’t just hug Vice President Biden; he kissed him.And in our country, we don’t often see men kiss.And there was a—just a deep sense of grief and empathy in that gesture that I think spoke—that I think speaks volumes of their relationship.

And I would also say the words that President Obama chose to describe Vice President Biden and what he meant to him when he awarded him the Medal of Freedom—which was a surprise ceremony.I think Vice President Biden had no idea, judging from his face when he walked in the room, what was about to happen.And I had a front-row seat, and I watched both of those men and their expressions, and you could feel the intensity of the relationship.The intimacy of the words that President Obama used to describe what his brother meant to him I think just speaks volumes of that relationship.And it’s a relationship that far transcended the fact that they were president and vice president.They truly are brothers.

I’m glad you remembered that.That is in the film, of course, and it’s good to get your overview of it, as well as some of the other people we talked to.Anything else that you think is essential to understand about this choice that America will make?

Well, maybe I should go back for a second on Hillary Clinton versus Vice President Biden to say …

I remember being in a meeting with President Obama, and he looked very distracted.And I couldn’t figure out what was going on, because it wasn’t a particularly weighty meeting.And so after the meeting I stopped in his office, and I said, “What was going on?”And he said, “Beau’s sick.”And I said, “Oh, my goodness, what’s wrong?”And he said, “No, no, Beau’s really sick.”And I thought, oh, my goodness, how on earth can Vice President Biden withstand another tragedy such as this?

And the look on President Obama’s face—he was so grief-stricken that he was sharing, literally sharing Vice President Biden’s pain.And I think after Beau died, President Obama became very protective of Vice President Biden, as he would to any brother, and tried to look out for him.And I think he was worried that a campaign might be more than he could take right then, and that the family really needed him.Obviously Beau’s wife had lost her husband; children no longer had a father.They have a very close extended family, and Beau was, in a sense, such a critical glue that held that family together in more ways than one.And I think he felt he wasn’t sure he could take it, that this was a lot to ask of any human being right then.

And look, he’d run against Hillary Clinton, so he knew how hard that could be, right?She’s a very worthy opponent.So I think a piece of him was feeling quite protective.

Thank you.

You’re welcome.… You know, I wonder if I should say one other thing—I should probably.This is something I’ve never said before. …I think their relationship grew through mutual effort.Early on, Vice President Biden would invite me to private breakfast with him, just the two of us, and he’d ask me questions about President Obama and how he was thinking about issues and his perspective.And I could tell he really wanted to get to know him better.And I thought it said a lot about him that he was willing to have lunch [sic] with a senior adviser of the president and kind of lay bare: “I’m trying to understand where he’s coming from; I’m trying to get his perspective.I want to know him better, and I want you to help me get to know him better.”

And I realized that he had come over that Rubicon when our breakfasts stopped happening, and he didn’t need me anymore to help him understand a man that he had grown to know well on his own.And I think relationships take effort.They take time.You have to be self-reflective.But I think you also—it’s helpful to talk to people who do know the person well, and I did know President Obama really, really well.

And so inviting me in and saying, “Help me understand exactly what makes him tick, and how I can be most helpful to him,” I considered to be a real compliment to me, but I also thought it spoke volumes about the vice president, that he would be willing to say to me, quite openly, “I want to know him better; I want to understand him better; I want to know what makes him tick so that I can serve better.”

Not many people do that.

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