The FRONTLINE Interviews
Wanda Kagan
Harris Friend
Wanda Kagan is a close friend of Kamala Harris. They met when they attended high school together in Montreal. Kagan temporarily lived with Harris’ family after Kagan revealed she was being abused at home.
The following interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on August 6, 2024. It has been edited for clarity and length.
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Meeting Kamala Harris
So let me just start at the beginning, which is, when did you first meet her?
I met her prior to our being transferred to a new high school.We were hanging out at like a community center kind of event.We were friends prior to that, so we were happy to know we were getting transferred to the same school.And yeah, that’s how I knew her prior to high school.
What was she like then?
She was always a very energetic person, very compassionate, empathetic.I think that’s kind of what drew me to her as a friend especially once, like I said, once we were in the school together.
Because I guess she had first come—when she first came to Canada, she was in an all-French school.
Yes.
Do you have a sense of what that would be like for her?I know you didn’t know her then.
Well, I didn’t, but I can only imagine.And that’s another common thing we had in common, because during that time there was a lot of the PQ [Parti Québécois], the French-English separatism.There was a lot of upheaval going on in Quebec at that time, so that pressure of having to learn and study in French was challenging.But once she was in the Westmount High, which is predominantly English, but you could do what they called a bilingual program, I’m sure she was—it was probably easier, much easier.Like for me, too, I went to French school for one year, so while all the students were trying to navigate passing that mandatory French test to graduate, we were relieved.We were one step ahead because we were a grade ahead in French.
Did she seem like somebody who was flexible?… She’s described what it was like in Berkeley and the sort of welcoming community that she had, and then to arrive in Canada and to be in a school that speaks French.From the Kamala that you knew as a kid, how did she deal with situations like that?
Well, that’s what I’m saying.She kind of was always the type that would embrace something, take it on, take it like a challenge and battle it and make the best out of it, which is what she did with them coming to Quebec, which was French, and having to go to French school, and the cold weather, you know.Yeah, it brought a different character out in her.
Was she somebody who would complain or she was just "get through it"?
No, she didn’t complain, It was just part of, once you were in Quebec.She complained about the cold, but she didn’t complain about the French language.She learned it.I mean, I learned it too, but I can’t have a full conversation, so it depends.
… Why do you think the two of you came together as friends?
I’d say what attracted us, what brought us together was just that.She was a strong personality.I picked up on that right away.And I think we kind of complemented each other.I had a strong personality, but I also was not timid, but I was living a secretive life.And so you’re always afraid when you are transferred to a new school, is somebody going to see through that?
Navigating High School
Tell me about the school.
The school was—it was a big school.It was a big change for me and for her.She was coming from a school that was smaller.So was I.And this school was a much bigger school.Like student-wise, it was like over 1,000 kids, and it was like 60 percent white, 40 percent Black.I didn’t even have that many Black kids where she was coming from or where I was coming from, so that adjustment we had to kind of navigate and find our way and where we fit in.
There was also big social-economical difference within the school.There were kids that got dropped off in limousines from up the hill in a very affluent area to the kids that walked up the hill from the poorest area in Montreal, Quebec.So it was a mixture, and that’s actually what was so nice about our friendship was seeing how she and myself navigated ourselves to fit into that world of two different worlds and bridge the gap between them.
In the sense that you were both biracial?
In the sense that we were both biracial.I mean, she was—her mom was a doctor, but like, she didn’t live way up the hill in the big fancy houses.She was—just lived in the middle-class area.And then I was poor, but I didn’t even really know how poor I was because that’s how Kamala was.I was surrounded by people that tried to empower me and make me feel as equal.I had no idea actually that there was that much difference.
What do you mean when you say that you both were sort of figuring out how to navigate that world of—was the school divided between Black and white?
It wasn’t divided.It was just very evident there were two different worlds. …
And how did you guys navigate that together?
How did we navigate it together?We joined clubs, and we joined different things.We were part of the variety show, and we were part of the fashion show and the pep rally and different clubs in the school, because then you’re meeting different kids from different cultures, different races, different economical backgrounds.
… In high school, people often get pegged as something—you know, the quarterback or the cheerleader or whatever.Was that something that you guys found yourselves being pegged?Was she pegged in a certain way?
Well, yeah, as a dancer, because we were part of—I did a little bit of sports, too.Whereas I was on the basketball team, she didn’t.She was more into the pep rally and other clubs in the school.But she was more or less pegged as being fun, energetic.She could—she could get everybody going.She was an asset, too, when we had the dance troupe and the variety show.She was always into fashion, so yeah, it was fun.
Did she talk about the life that she left behind?
Yeah.She talked about the life she left behind a lot.That was another commonality we had.My family was in the States.She always talked about going back to the States and how much she missed it.It was kind of a very different world you know, California to Montreal, the cold; the culture was kind of different.So she very much looked forward to when she was going to be finished [with] school, and I always knew she was going back.
Yeah, and I guess she’s talked about calling back home to friends and going back home in the summer.So you had a sense that she was still very connected to—
Oh, yeah, very connected.
—her life there.Was she sad about it?
You mean about—
About not being back in California.
I would say sad she missed it, but she embraced her life that she had in Montreal.Like I said, she was very active in different things, so she looked forward to when it was summertime, when it was time to go back and visit.
Kagan Confides in Harris
I understand—you said early on you were worried people would sort of see you, and I know she saw, sensed that you were going through difficult times during those years.
Yeah.So I was always very close with her because, like I said, we were close.We did a lot of different things together.Our dance troupe had us practicing together at different people’s houses.But I was being abused at home, both physically and sexually, and I finally—she would tell me that I—“What’s wrong?” and that I didn’t seem myself some days.And so I toyed with the idea sometimes in the back of my mind of like how would I talk, would I tell someone.And so once I was confronted with her out and out asking me, I decided to tell her that I was being molested and abused at home.
How did she respond?
She was extremely supportive immediately.I was kind of—I wasn’t surprised, but when she said, “Well, you're going to have to come and stay with us,” and her first, her first reaction was, “How long have you been going through this, Wanda?” And then once I talked about it with her, then she was like, “Well, you are just going to have to come and stay with us.” And I remember saying, “Well, you didn’t even ask your mom yet,” you know.
And I was really—her mom was really cool, and I was close with her.I was comfortable with her, you know, but they also lead a very structured, studious lifestyle.Like, bringing somebody, a stranger into your home is very different than having dance practices or dinner at your house.So I was really emotional and heartfelt when they said I could come and stay with them.
How did her mom react when she told her mom?
Her mom was very sad for me.She’s a doctor, so she has a certain amount of even extra empathy of someone going through something like that.And then she was like, “Don’t worry.We’re going to get you the help you need, the support you need, whatever,” and she helped navigate me through different things of the system.
And so then you went to live with Kamala Harris and her mom and her sister?
Yeah.When I was living with them, it was—well, for me it was stability; it was relief.It was just such a sense of belonging also.Like, they didn’t just take me in to live with them.I really felt like I belonged, you know.And I just recall different little things, like they cooked a lot.They loved to cook.And I remember the—when I first saw all these spices, even though I was Black, I was like—we’re a salt and pepper family, so I was like, “What’s all these jars of spices?” I found that so interesting.And then watching them cook because they cooked traditional Indian dishes and stuff.So that was really interesting.
Those are some of my good, fondest memories.And just that they ate dinner together, like they all sat around the table and ate dinner together.I just wasn’t used to that either.
Kamala’s Mother, Shyamala Harris
What was her mom like?She sounds like a real force.
She was a force to be reckoned with, I guess.She was a very small person.I used to always like—she was inspirational because she was small.I knew she was a doctor.You know, doctor, you think, wow, big, powerful.But she had a very big personality.You’d swear she was six feet tall not four-feet-something.So yeah, she was very—she kept her girls very driven.That’s what I remember.I want to be like that.
What do you mean that she kept them very driven?
Because she had a lot of belief in them.Like she would always tell them, “You can be anything.You can do anything you set your mind to,” you know?So keeping and seeing them studying and the structure of their studying habits and their home environment and their extracurricular that they did participate in, it just—it let me believe.You know, even though it wasn’t like my life, the rest of my life, it was a short period of time, it let me believe.It let me believe that I can finish college, too; that I can go on to be successful.
Her mom’s story is so extraordinary, of leaving India at a young age, going to study at Berkeley and sort of breaking—did you know that life story at the time?Because I’ve wondered what impression that would leave on Kamala Harris to know her mom had done all of that.
Yeah.I did hear it talked about once before, so I used to say, “Oh, that’s where she gets that from,” because like I say, Kamala, too, was a very strong personality and a leader.And she took a stand for things, like if something wasn’t right in the school.
There’s a story, I think, of her protesting as a young kid to be able to play on the fields in front of the apartment.Did you know that story?
Yeah, I knew that story, too.I was friends with her, but she wasn’t actually—we weren’t in high school together yet then.It was before she was in high school.That’s how young she was fighting for things.And then even when she was at Westmount High, when we were at Westmount High, she took a stance for prom.Back then, 40 years ago, like you just did not [go] to prom by yourself.If you didn’t have a date, you couldn’t go.And she—there were girls that were at school.They were upset.Some were crying actually: “It’s two months away; I still don’t have a date.”
So she took a stand and decided that we were all just going to go as a group of girls together.Whoever had a date was going to say, “No date.We’re all just going to go together,” so nobody would feel left out and excluded.And even then I remember thinking back like, that was such a powerful move.Now as an adult, I realize just how powerful a move it was, but even back then I was mature enough to understand that that was—that that’s how compassionate and caring she was in what was right, what was wrong, what’s acceptable, not acceptable.
And how did it go, the prom?
It was great.We just all went together, six girls.And I remember talking about, “Well, we won’t have any bad memories like everyone else, love stories the next day over.” There are always stories the next day after prom, and it was just—and we had to be home early.That was the only thing.
Harris’ Early Interest in the Law
… Did you have a sense of, because we were trying to figure out why, how she ends up going into government and politics.Did she seem like she was interested in politics and government at that point?
Well, she was always—she always wanted to be a lawyer.That I knew.And she, like I said, she had that type of personality that took a stance for things, what’s right, what’s wrong.I mean, even when I went to live with her, it wasn’t just that I went to live with her.I just felt like I saw that passion and that compassion in her of fighting for my rights. …
So to later hear and see that she went into that field was—it was moving, because basically she was like taking a stand and fighting for my rights back then, forty years ago, to do what I wanted, to be able to do what I wanted with my body.And here we are many years later in a position like this of her taking a stand and fighting for the rights of women in America.
Did you get a sense she wanted to be a lawyer even before she knew about what you were dealing with?
Oh, yeah, absolutely.Yeah, absolutely, yeah.Yeah.But then to hear that she actually—I knew she became a lawyer.But then to know that she went into the field and that I was not a driving force but—well, she talked about it when—when I lost touch with her for a while there, I lost touch after she went to college and then I went to college.But then I stayed in touch with her mom still, and—but then I still had a pretty unstable life again, so I was moving a lot, and so I lost her mom’s contact number.And one day I was like, oh, my God, I don’t even have her family in the States’ number or anything.So my friends all knew that I was trying to find her, because I was older then; I had a job; I had a career in the health care industry.I had children, and I was married.I wanted to let her know that I overcame all odds and that I was philanthropic, and I was fundraising and helping other kids finish their education.
So my friend calls me one day, and she says, “Wanda, guess who’s on Oprah.” And I was like, “Who?” And she’s like, “Kamala.” And everyone was calling me because everybody knew I’d been trying to find her.And so, I was like, “Oh, my God.” I only had to Google my friend to find her.So that’s when I actually—I Googled her and saw pages and pages.So I caught up, and she was on the Oprah show as the first Black district attorney of California.
And so when I reached out to her—well, first I had to Google and look, and there’s like layers and layers.It’s like a needle in a haystack, a million dot-gov email addresses.So I’ve always been pretty good and structured, so I was like, “Hmm, which one should I reach out to?” So I left a message at two email addresses.Oh, yeah, and I went and I found the picture of us, and I scanned it to them, too, so they would know like, I’m not some wackadoodle here; like, I really know her.
I think it was later that evening.I wasn’t even in bed.I was in bed, but the day wasn’t even over.And my daughter, she was 10 then, and she is like, “Mommy, telephone.” And I was like, “I’m in bed.I’m not getting out.” And she is like, “But it’s your friend from Oprah.” And I was like, “Oh, my God.” So I flew out of bed, and I picked up the phone, and I was like, “Oh, my God.I didn’t think you would call back.I’m sure you’ve got thousands of calls.” “Yeah, but you are not just anyone.” And I was like, it was just so moving.I was like, I couldn’t believe this.
And then we just caught up like time stood still.She started to ask what I was doing as a career, and she told me that, “I went into—I became a lawyer, and I became district attorney, and I set up all these things fighting for women and children of sexual abuse and fighting for their rights.” She said, “After everything I went through with you, it drove me to want to make change and do something for people like you that were out there.” And I was like, “Oh, my God.I’ve been looking for you to thank you for intervening at the most pivotal time of my life, and you’re thanking me for being a catalyst in your career.” It was very touching and moving.And ever since then we’ve rekindled friendship like time stood still.
It’s really amazing, and this horrible experience that you had helped turn her into this place where she is right now.
Yeah.To think that that a bad experience like that, what I was going through and that what she helped me through could lead a path down to where she is at today in fighting for everybody, America is, it is very touching.
What would she have seen, because she said that that inspired her to become a prosecutor?What would she have seen about you?You talked about going into their house, but as far as the system?Would she have been frustrated with how the system handled your case, or did she see it helping you?What would she have seen?
She would have saw it as frustrating.That’s probably what the driving force was.
Because the three of you, or her and her mom were trying to get the—
Yeah.They were trying to navigate what was going to be best for me, and you don’t always agree with what the system thinks is best for the child.
… Did she talk to you about her plans for after high school and what she saw for college and for life?
Well, I always knew she was going to go to a Black college.And for me, I was like, Canada is Canada.It’s like, a Black college, what is that even?So I didn’t even know what that meant.I just knew that that was something that she was passionate about, was going to an all-Black college, university.And so she talked to me about it, and I was like, oh, interesting.And I took that, too, like she wanted to be empowered and around people that would empower her, whether it’s change to be made or, you know—yeah.
Kagan and Harris Reconnect
… So you reconnect with her.Did you ever see the Oprah episode?
Yeah.I watched it on the internet, yeah.
What did you think when you saw her, just aside from the surprise at seeing her, what did you think?
I was like, “Oh, my God.Wow.” I was like, blown away.I was like, you always think—I knew she would be successful.And I knew—you always think that your friends and you’re always happy for where they become in life and where they are going, but I was like really blown away with like how far she had become, and I was really proud of her.
She doesn’t talk about your story as part of why she’s going to be—why she decides to become a prosecutor.She tells you at that point, but she doesn’t share it publicly until later.
Yeah.She didn’t share it publicly till later because that’s just the kind of person that she is.And it’s kind of my story.It’s not like, she says, her voice.She was my voice when I didn’t have a voice, fighting for my rights back then.But it’s really my story, and I really wasn’t ready to share it with the world, basically.And so by the time we talked about it, and I was ready by the time I did decide to share it a few years back.
So why did you decide?It’s hard to come public with something like that.Why did you decide to talk about this experience?
… I had just decided that I was at a time in my life when I could share it.I had to wait until my kids were old enough that they could understand because that still was their grandmother, and I had to wait until I was ready to let our lives be an open book to the world.
… I was at a point in my life and my career that I was just so grateful for all that I had become and all that I had accomplished and how I was helping other kids get scholarships and finish their education, and that it made me realize that I have to pay the path forward.I was so grateful for all that I did for other kids based on what she helped me—that she took me out of a horrific situation.And then it was just time.
… What have you thought as she is the vice president of the United States and suddenly she’s thrust into the position that she’s in right now of leading her party and facing off against Donald Trump?It must be sort of a surreal experience to have watched the kid you knew in high school to this moment.
It is really a very surreal moment.I think maybe for me more than other people, I’m watching it, and to me I’m watching her live her dream.I’m watching her do what she does best.I’m watching what I always felt and knew she had in her.It’s not like, say, someone else who might have known her, but to know her from that far back and know that she’s had that in her from that long ago, it’s really gratifying and satisfying.And I say I’m overwhelmed with joy when I sit there watching the camera.
When you do talk to her, what is she like?Is she like the woman we see on TV?Is she like the kid you knew in high school?
She's a bit of both, OK?Because we obviously, yeah, you don’t—we’re not going to sit there and talk politics when we’re together, but you see the fun, same giddy, like same girly stuff we will talk about, and then there is the serious side of her, too.So it’s a nice balance.Like she says, she’s surrounded by different people that, it’s that level of normality.That’s what I enjoy when I talk to her, I get together with her.I’m talking to my high school friend, Kamala.I’m not really talking to the vice president of the United States.
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