RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Last year, the Biden administration released a controversial businessman from US custody in exchange for the release of 10 Americans.
NEWS ARCHIVE: …Major prisoner swap with Venezuela.
NEWS ARCHIVE: The US has freed Alex Saab
NEWS ARCHIVE: The US giving up a close ally of Maduro in this trade.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: The deal was the latest chapter in a corruption scandal that stretches from Venezuela to the US and beyond.
MARSHALL BILLINGSLEA, Asst. Sec. U.S. Dept. of Treasury (2017-21): This is a story of corruption, of kleptocracy, on a scale that the world has not seen.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Journalist Roberto Deniz has been covering the story for the Venezuelan news site Armando Info for years.
NEWS ARCHIVE: … el periodisto Roberto Deniz…
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: And for much of that time, he’s reported from exile, as he’s faced legal threats from the government of President Nicolas Maduro.
ROBERTO DENIZ: Why Nicolas Maduro is giving him so much power, so much business, that’s the reason we decided to investigate.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: A Dangerous Assignment is a new film from FRONTLINE and Armando Info that tells the story of Deniz, and the consequences he’s faced for his reporting. Deniz joins me today, along with the director of the film, Juan Ravell. I’m Raney Aronson-Rath, editor-in-chief and executive producer of FRONTLINE, and this is FRONTLINE Dispatch.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Today I’m here with Roberto Deniz and Juan Ravell. Thanks for being on the Dispatch, Roberto and Juan.
ROBERTO DENIZ: Thank you.
JUAN RAVELL: Thank you.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Roberto, I have to start with you. This is your story, you’ve been reporting it forever. Tell me how it all began.
ROBERTO DENIZ: Yes, all began in 2016 when I decided to try to investigate what was happening in a kind of a social program of the Venezuelan government, the Maduro’s regime called CLAP, that apparently was a kind of, you know, a social program to provide food to poor people in a moment where Venezuela was living a tremendous economic and social crisis. But since we started to investigate, we realized that there was a kind of business behind this social program. Um, A business, uh, to favor people very close to Nicolas Maduro, the Venezuelan, uh, president, especially Alex Saab. Alex Saab is a Colombian entrepreneur that started to do business in Venezuela since 2011, but he, he, he became in a, in a kind of a favorite contractor for Maduro. Since Maduro became president in 2013, I would say that, that, that was how this story began.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: And so you’re starting to look at Alex, you’re looking at his background. What are the first sort of hints that something else is going on than what you’re seeing on the surface.
ROBERTO DENIZ: Yes, the first business that he had in Venezuela, uh, was related to low income houses, and then he started to get more and more contracts in different areas, in different business that he has never worked. And that was very, very rare, very weird for us because nobody did know who was this guy. Why Nicolás Maduro is giving him, uh, so much power, so much business, and that, that is a reason because we definitely decided to investigate, uh, much about him, not only his, his business in Venezuela, also his past in Colombia, and, and how or why he, he was, uh, getting all of this business in Venezuela.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: And Juan, you met up with Roberto. Let’s just hear that original story. What’s the once upon a time of the two of you and how you decided to make a film?
JUAN RAVELL: Well, it started back in 2019. I started doing very short videos for Armando Info and we started building a relationship.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Oh, I didn’t know that.
JUAN RAVELL: We got along well. Yeah, we got a…
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: So you were making shorts. That’s great. OK.
JUAN RAVELL: Shorts, some satirical, some with a, like a funny point of view because I had a political satire background. So I started working with them on these things. But when Roberto started working on, well, he had already started working on the Alex Saab’s story, but as the story grew and grew, it seemed like this is not a short video, that this is a big, big investigation, and I remember exactly the moment when I thought this is a documentary, and it’s when I’m listening to Roberto have a phone call with a congressman from the opposition who allegedly Alex Saab was, uh, paying to get his name washed outside Venezuela. So, When Roberto approaches this, uh, opposition lawmaker, his response is very blunt and very heavy. And Roberto conducts himself in a very journalistic, professional way. Like, he’s pressing him, but he’s respectful. I thought this needs to be a centerpiece of a film. This needs to, this story needs to be known and Venezuelans and, well, not only Venezuelans, but Venezuelans and others need to know about this story. So once, uh, Alex Saab was captured in Cape Verde, we knew this documentary was happening and we started shooting.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: So, let’s just hear a little bit about Alex Saab and also what he would say to this. Um, and then how does he get captured? Roberto.
ROBERTO DENIZ: Alex Saab first was indicted in United States in, uh, 2019. Um, he was indicted and then on June, 2020, he was traveling, um, from Venezuela to Iran, to Tehran, the capital city of Iran. But he had to stop, uh, in Cabo Verde, Cape Verde, uh, for, you know, for refuel his airplane. And that, uh, was the moment when the, um, police officers, um, detained him because United States activate a red notice, uh, Interpol red notice. And that is the reason because he was detained that day in, in, in Cape Verde.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Okay, and on what charges? What was he charged with originally? And then, uh, if you could tell me what then happens to Alex?
ROBERTO DENIZ: Yes, the, the main charge that he was indicted was for money laundering, and that is the reason because he was detained in Cabo Verde. At the beginning when he was detained, I thought that the legal process to extradite him From Cabo Verde to United States, it was going to be quickly, I thought that at the beginning, but the real thing was that it was a long process that it took, it took more than a year and, and that, that, that was also the moment where I, I understood that, well, this is not only a Venezuelan story. Uh, this guy is calling the attention from the United States is calling the attention from the some international allies of the Venezuelan government, like Russia or China, even Iran, that they were defending Alex Saab. And and that was the moment when I realized, wow, that maybe the big dimension of this story. And after the loan legal processing in, in, in Cape Verde, he was extradited, uh, to United States in October, uh, 2021.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: And then Juan, okay, so this part of this story – first of all, the film itself is, is very cinematic. You’re following Roberto on this investigative journey. We’re also looking at Alex Saab’s case, right, and what happens to him, and of course his journey back to Venezuela. How did you sort of translate this very granular investigative work into a film?
JUAN RAVELL: Well, we worked a lot on the story. And I think the answer is that we really worked hard on what investigations of the ones that Roberto did and the other people in the film, like Gerardo Reyes, like there are four or five main investigations that are featured in the film. So we decided this is the heartbeat of the story. The investigation is going to drive the story. And that was the first thing, just getting to understand which investigations we’re going to follow through and explain, and then each investigation has its own little, uh, style, you know, because the Russian investigation is different to the investigation in Venezuela. So I would say within the film, there are different tones for each investigation and, um, at one point in the film from when Alex Saab is captured, you start seeing a lot of verite and all of more following of Roberto and, and the backlash, uh, uh, against him for doing this investigation. So it’s a mix of reconstructing, um, and being creative in a way of showing this, these sometimes dry things.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: And Roberto, let’s talk about what happened to you. So you start to investigate, then tell me what happens and, and where are you now?
ROBERTO DENIZ: Um, since the beginning I started to investigate this story and, and, and when the name of Alex Saab came up again in, in, in our story. Um, it was a very difficult moment for me as a journalist, because I started to see that it was going to be hard to cover the story, staying in Venezuela. In 2017, Alex Saab sued me and also the three founders and editor of Armando info that they are also Venezuelan journalists. Um, and that is the reason I decided to flee Venezuela, uh, in the beginning of, uh, 2018. And we, I, I went to, to Bogota, to Colombia. It’s where I have been all of these years. And yes, at the, at the beginning, the, the main reason was, you know, try to find a place to be safe. Uh, but then, uh, I was totally convinced that my, my best defense in this, in this case, on this story as a journalist was continue the investigation.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: So in the lead up to the documentary, there was a lot of feedback, let’s say, from the Venezuelan government, from essentially the Attorney General of Venezuela. Talk to us about what happened, what were they saying, what have they said about the film, and you and Armando Info.
ROBERTO DENIZ: Yes, just a few days after we released the trailer and we released the information that we were working in this project with PBS and Frontline, the General Attorney of Venezuela made an incredible accusation against me and also against Ewald Schaffenberg, founder and editor of Armando Info. Um, he tried to relate our names and our job to a kind of, uh, a corruption scheme leaded by the former, uh, Oil Minister of Venezuela. And what, what is really incredible for me is that that is a guy that we also have investigated and we publish what was happening PDVSA, the oil state company, the big corruption scale that was happening in PDVSA. But now the, um, the attorney general, attorney general, um, made this accusation. For me, it is very clear that it was a kind of official reaction against us because we released the information about the documentary. Um of course, it’s dangerous because it’s a kind of criminalization of our job. It’s not easy, you know, to see an attorney general in national TV making that kind of accusation against me and against the editor of Armando.info. But, uh, I think that is the price or the risk that we have to taken in this story, and that is something that is going to continue in Venezuela, I guess.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: And what does it mean about you and Ewald and others about going back to Venezuela?
ROBERTO DENIZ: I think that right now it’s, it’s totally impossible to think in that, in that scenario for me. It’s very difficult to imagine that maybe I can go back, um, in, in just in months or maybe in some years to Venezuela. I think that maybe we need first, uh, maybe a kind of political change in Venezuela. The Venezuelan judicial system is corrupted. And as a journalist, I am not going to have the opportunity to face, uh, a fair trial. That is, that is not something that is going to happen in Venezuela. That is a reason I continue working out of Venezuela and I don’t know if I can go back in the next, uh, year to Venezuela.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Juan, when you’re listening to Roberto talk about this, I mean, you chronicle a lot of the, the actual ramifications of his work and Armando Info’s work. That was part of your film. Talk about why you decided to include those ramifications in the film.
JUAN RAVELL: Yeah, that’s an interesting question. I could have focused only on the investigations and not the effects, but I think it’s part of the story. Journalists sometimes don’t want to become the story and I, and I understand it, but in this case, uh, the stakes are, are so high and are so much part of it because, for example, take the social media attacks. That’s a thing that, that is difficult to manage and, and I’ve been following Roberto and, and, and it’s not easy. But, um, in the end, whenever these heavy attacks happen, uh, what I understand from my conversations with Roberto is that initially, there’s like a hole in the stomach and it hurts, but moments later, hours later, you start understanding that, well, this is happening because we’re doing the right thing and we’re reporting on the important issues. So in a way, it’s a sort of confirmation that the work is good and the work is having an impact.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Hmm. That’s a really interesting way of thinking of it. And then also the idea of your, uh, Roberto, which you’ve explained is that actually you can do a better job as a journalist in exile, in fact, looking at these stories. And, and I thought that was a really interesting point in the film as well. Um, Roberto, can you tell us where Alex Saab is now and what is the state of play for him?
ROBERTO DENIZ: Alex Saab right now is in Venezuela. He went back to Venezuela last December because the Venezuelan government made a political agreement with the White House, with the Joe Biden administration, where Alex Saab was exchanged for 10, um, American prisoners that were in Venezuelan, uh, jails. He’s, uh, now, as I said, in Venezuela. Now he’s in charge in an office that it’s supposed to get some international investment to Venezuela. But I, I am totally convinced that we, maybe we are going to have a new chapter. I don’t know when, but in this story, I am, I am convinced that we haven’t, um, we haven’t seen the, the, end of this story with Alex Saab. And I don’t know, I will, I will try to cover it and to follow him, uh, until the final chapter.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Right. It definitely feel like it feels as if we’re moving into a new chapter. Um, one, can you summarize for us from Alex Saab and the Venezuelan government perspective? What did they say about the reporting that Roberto and the team has done?
JUAN RAVELL: Well, regarding the relationship between Saab and Maduro, they, they didn’t comment on it. Just as we know, Alex Saab made a lawsuit against Roberto and in an interview later to El Tiempo de Bogotá, Alex Sab denied any relationship to the CLAP program or to food imports in Venezuela. So when Alex Saab is captured, there’s a new narrative that comes for us out of nowhere that Alex Saab is a diplomat, that Alex Saab was on a humanitarian mission. And, and Maduro starts to mention him in a way that we’ve never seen before with a contractor to the Venezuelan government. So that’s the new narrative that started growing and started, uh, spreading from the Venezuelan government. And it has remained till today, the same narrative. They just defend him, even as it was revealed in court that he was a DEA informant.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Right, okay, so tell me that part, because that’s also a left turn in the documentary. Roberto, do you want to talk about what we were able to learn about Alex Saab?
ROBERTO DENIZ: Yes, while Alex was facing, facing the, the, um, the US system justice. And while he was trying to, to demonstrate that he was a kind of Venezuelan diplomat to avoid the trial, uh, of money laundering. Um, we, we saw a, um, an incredible, an incredible thing, uh, during, during that trial because the Judge Robert Scola ordered to unseal a document where it shows that Alex Saab was talking with the D-E-A, uh, agents, between. 2018 and 2019, and that was totally, you know, a secret. Nobody knew about it until that document came up. And for me, it was, it was very incredible to, to read then the transcription of that, uh, trial session because, uh, we saw how the Alex Saab lawyers was trying to avoid that this document, uh, were unsealed. And yes, definitely is maybe, uh, one of the biggest question that we have in this story is why even after, uh, that document, uh, were published, uh, why Nicolás Maduro is also defending Alex Saab, uh, as, as he did it. It is, I think that is one of the greatest question in, in all of this story is, is, is that.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: So to your point about there being another chapter, there’s undoubtedly another chapter here. So, we released the film in the US, um, and it was just broadcast. And then of course we worked out a deal with you all where we could actually stream this on YouTube in Venezuela. What has the response been like? I mean, we’ve gotten a ton of press here, but what’s it been like, Roberto? What are you hearing and Juan as well?
ROBERTO DENIZ: What I have seen and heard about our audience of the audience of Armando Info in Venezuela is that people is very happy because just the first two days, um, if, if somebody in Venezuela wanted to watch the documentary, um, it was needed to, you know, upload, upload a VPN and, um, connect to the internet as if you were in the United States and people after they saw the decision that right now that is not necessary and people is talking about the documentary on social media I have received many, many, um, comments, uh, from journalists of all around the world. Um, of course, even friends that maybe I have many years that I haven’t talked with them. Um, and, and I think that is definitely, it is very important what is happening because Venezuela right now is a country that have a strong censorship. And even in Venezuela for us, it’s so difficult that people can’t read our stories because our website is blocked by the Venezuelan government. And now, you know, it’s a great opportunity maybe to understand what is happening with, with corruption in Venezuela. Not only because I think that the documentary also shows, you know, what is, has been happening in a, in a Maduro’s regime. It’s not only about Alex Saab. There is another things in the documentary. And I think that it’s going to be very important for, for people have the opportunity to watch the documentary.
JUAN RAVELL: I’m going to jump and say something that Roberto will not say because he’s Roberto. But another thing that also has popped is that people are very proud of the work Armando Info did. People are very proud of how they stood up and they’re proud of their journalists. And one of the comments that I’ve read that I, that I really like is that, yeah, Venezuela is corruption. Venezuela is corruption. It’s run by people who are autocratic, but Venezuela is also its journalists, and Venezuela is also people like Roberto. So, in that way, I think the film has exceeded my expectations, and I’m very happy with that.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Well, thank you both so much. Thanks for being on the Dispatch.
ROBERTO DENIZ: Thank you.
JUAN RAVELL: Thank you.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Thanks again to Roberto Deniz and Juan Ravell. You can watch A Dangerous Assignment on frontline dot org, FRONTLINE’s YouTube Channel.
