NEWS ARCHIVE: History unfolding at lightning speed in the Middle East.
NEWS ARCHIVE 2: Gunfire chanting and cheers in celebration of the end of an era.
NEWS ARCHIVE 3: Tears of happiness… the moment many in Syria waited for decades to see.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: On December 8th, Syrian rebels stunned the world when they seized Damascus and toppled Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
NEWS ARCHIVE 4 [ABC NEWS, 12/8/24, 0;23]: …jubilation and relief in the streets. The rebels declaring victory from the state TV studios, saying, the city of Damascus has been liberated.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: The offensive was led by the Islamist militant group Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS. In 2021, FRONTLINE correspondent Martin Smith became the first Western journalist to interview Abu Mohammad al-Jolani, HTS’s leader.
MARTIN SMITH [from “The Jihadist” (2021)]: You want to impose Sharia law on society, what gave you the authority, the legitimacy to call for this?
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Martin Smith joins me on the Dispatch today to talk about the historic developments in Syria and Jolani’s journey from al Qaeda commander to rebel leader seeking a new role in Syria’s future. I’m Raney Aronson Rath, Editor in Chief and Executive Producer of FRONTLINE, and this is the Frontline Dispatch.
[sponsor roll]
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Marty, thanks so much for joining me on the dispatch.
MARTIN SMITH: It’s good to be back
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: So we’re only a few days out since Assad was ousted from power and fled to Russia. What has your reaction been to the news, especially considering your film that aired, you know, now four years ago, The Jihadist?
MARTIN SMITH: You know, I was caught as flat footed as anybody was. I had met Jolani back in 2021, and he told me that his ambition, his goal, was to fight Assad and topple the government. I thought, well, that’s a pipe dream, it’s not going to happen, um, and that was the case as long as the Russians and the Iranians and Hezbollah were all having Assad’s back. So when this happened and unfolded, I was surprised. It seemed possible that he could have taken Aleppo. And that was the first city. And that’s the—used to be the biggest city in Syria, now the second largest next to Damascus. Um, But I think he was surprised, too. My guess is he was surprised at how quickly Assad’s forces crumbled. And I don’t think anybody quite understood how much corruption and defection had weakened Assad’s forces. And so he found himself pushing on an open door and said, “Hey, let’s turn South.” And they went to Hama. That fell. Homs and, you know, just a few days ago, they’re in Damascus.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Back in 2021, you were the first Western journalist to interview him. How did you find him and what made you pay attention at the time?
MARTIN SMITH: Well, he was saying at the time through intermediaries, that he wanted to speak to a Western audience and that he had, uh, moved away from his previous colleagues in Al Qaeda and in ISIS. And he wanted to get that message out. And I thought, “Well, this is an opportunity.” I, I didn’t know what to really make of him. Obviously, he was using us for that purpose, and he showed us what he wanted to show us and said what he wanted to say. But I met him at a building on the outskirts of Idlib’s capital, kind of an abandoned building, and outside were guards wearing black ski masks and heavily armed. They ushered me into a room. I sat down, and in comes Jolani, surrounded by several aides. He’s tall. He’s fit. He’s a very serious character. There wasn’t a lot of humor. And this was before we, you know, had cameras on him and I just sat there for about two plus hours talking with him and telling him that we were going to ask him whatever we wanted to ask and that he could say whatever he wanted to say. There were no conditions. That was nothing that he asked to be off limits.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Right. And I know that in 2013, the U. S. actually designated him as a terrorist. Tell me more about that and why.
MARTIN SMITH: Well, he had been, um, he was a young Syrian who decided to go up and fight the Americans in Iraq. That was a very popular thing back in the day, after the American invasion and the toppling of Saddam Hussein, for young men from all over the region to go fight the Americans. And so he did that. Um, after not so long, he was imprisoned by the Americans at a, um, what was called Camp Bucca in the southern part of Iraq, and he spent several years there. Um, it really was a university for jihadists. Uh, it wasn’t so much a punishment as it was a time when, uh, these guys could get together and talk and plan and plot. And that’s what he did. Um, he then wrote a 50 page paper while he was in prison. Uh, that’s lost, unfortunately, I think we could learn a lot from it, but it outlined the history of Syria and why Jihadists should be fighting Assad, not just the Americans in Iraq and that he wanted to go back. And that’s what he did. He gets out of prison. He goes to Baghdadi who headed ISIS and says, uh, I want you to help set me up with an Al-Qaeda affiliate in, um, Syria. And he got 50 or 60 thousand dollars to do that, took six guys across the border and started building an army.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: So and then from there, what happened in the interim?
MARTIN SMITH: Well, he was a very successful guerrilla commander. He used kidnapping, uh, ransom money to raise more funds. He continued to get money from ISIS to operate and build his army. Um, but he, he takes a different approach to the way he is conducting his operations and it helps him gain civilian support, even among some, uh, not Islamist folks in Syria. So, um, from there, he, he simply builds an army, he fights, um, on his southern border against Assad’s forces that are supported by Iran. He is enduring bombings, uh, while I was there, the bombs were falling, drones were overhead, the Russians were attacking him. So he was boxed. He couldn’t move. And until Ukraine tied Russia’s hands and Israel’s attacks on Hezbollah reduced their strength, he saw the opportunity. He goes into Aleppo. And finds quickly, as I said, that he’s pushing on an open door. And the next thing you know, he’s in Damascus.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Right. And the next thing you know, he’s in Damascus and, you know, you and I are waking up to images of Syrians who have been refugees streaming back into Syria. So set the scene for me right now, what is actually happening in Damascus.
MARTIN SMITH: There’s so much happening. And the Middle East is something of a Rubik’s cube that nobody can solve. So many things are in play. Uh, so, you know, people, uh, are celebrating his return. From all that I’ve heard, Damascus is relatively calm and people are going, you know, along shopping and making, making their way through their lives as they were, um, but they’re tremendously, uh, relieved that Assad and his torturous regime has gone. They don’t quite know what to, what to expect, but there are many things happening. Uh, Israel is attacking Syria’s military facilities, um, to make sure that Jolani can’t use whatever he has or had to attack Israel. The Israelis are pushing on the Golan Heights, have expanded, uh, their territory there that was seized in the 1967 war and have created a buffer zone. So they’re very afraid. Meanwhile, Hezbollah and Iran are in retreat. Assad is in Moscow. And the Russians—you know, frankly, Assad tried to fight, but he had no friends. He had no help. And his army was hollowed out from corruption and It’s a grim scene.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: It’s just an unbelievable scenario and it could play out in so many different directions. I’m wondering – what do you think the next step for Jolani will be?
MARTIN SMITH: He has, um, been able to govern Idlib relatively successfully, given that he was under, uh, you know, fire all the time there. Um, but he had formed something he calls the Salvation Government, and they were, you know, I saw hospitals, I saw schools, universities, um, other institutions that were more or less functioning. Obviously, um, you know, I had to always be wary of being given some kind of dog and pony show, but it did seem in the, in the, eight or so days that I was there that things were functioning and that’s what he’s going to do, um, now, but he’s got all these disparate groups. He’s got the Alawites up along the Mediterranean coast that are – the Alawites is the clan from which Assad came. He’s got the Kurds up in the Northeast. He’s got other rebel groups that helped take control and he’s got to control them. Um, he’s got Christians, he’s got, um, you know, other minorities in the country. So, you know, it reminds me of when the Americans toppled Saddam in Baghdad. Suddenly you had Sunnis and Shias and other groups all vying for control and power, and I worry that it’s going to, that, that this, the conditions in Syria could be similarly severe.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Right. I mean, Jolani’s group is an Islamist group, right? And you’ve mentioned the diversity inside of Syria. And of course, in recent years, he has faced some criticism for crackdowns and dissent in Idlib. Um, and the last couple of days, however, it seems like he’s claiming that he has a more tolerant vision for Syria. And what are you hearing about that and what are experts saying that you’re listening to?
MARTIN SMITH: Yeah, I, I will say I’m skeptical. Um, words are cheap. We have to wait and see what he actually does. I don’t know. Experts, um, have been caught
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Mm hmm. Mm
MARTIN SMITH: flat footed. They did not expect this. They didn’t understand how weak Assad was. So people are speculating. Um, nobody can say they know how sincere Jolani is, you know, I don’t think that this sort of, uh, charm offensive or moderation is anything new for him. I think it’s been going on for some time, ever since he broke with Al-Qaeda and, and ISIS. I mean, when I was in Idlib, he was fighting ISIS and Al-Qaeda cells.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: You interviewed people that had lived under HTS’s rule in Idlib right? And they alleged that they had been tortured in his prison. When you talk to Jolani, what did he say to that?
MARTIN SMITH: Well, he first said rather glibly, he says, we don’t have prisons. And then he turned around and said, if anybody wants, if anybody wants to come from a human rights group and go into our prisons, they’re welcome to do that. And I took that message to some human rights folks, and it never happened. Listen, I think there were really credible reports of torture in his prisons, leading to death in some cases. So, that happened. Um, It’s, it’s hard to talk about that, however, in light of what we now see coming out of, uh, Assad’s prisons. In comparison to Assad, Jolani was something of a neophyte, I think, to the, to, to the game of torture and imprisonment.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Right. And you have reported on Assad as well. Um, just give me, you know, a primer for people who are listening. What are we talking about in Assad’s regime all of these years?
MARTIN SMITH: Well, first of all, it was his father who ruled for the first decades of the 50-year Assad family rule. Hafez al Assad, the father, was challenged, uh, and he was brutal in putting down uprisings. Most notably in Hama, uh, when the Muslim Brotherhood challenged his authority. And Bashar, who had trained as a, uh, eye doctor in London, uh, you know, took over kind of reluctantly. His brother was supposed to take over, but he died in a car accident, I think it was. And Bashar is, uh, is less imposing of a figure, but he seemed to have no problem—urged on by his mother—to clamp down on any, any dissent in the country. So when the Arab Spring hit in 2011, Bashar al-Assad was brutal and many of the people on the streets were wanting rule of law, free speech, freedom of assembly, uh, and they quickly were hammered and that turned the revolt against Assad into a military confrontation because only the guys with guns could stand up to him. So then you had the Islamist groups coming in, and Assad punished them brutally and we’re seeing them coming out of the prisons. Many of them can’t remember their own names. Uh, and they’re injured and wounded and still there—you know, Russia and, and Iran left, uh, Syria with this horrible legacy of this prison, Saydnaya prison, uh, many layers deep under the ground. And some people are still in there and they’re trying to get them out. It’s an awful, it’s an awful history.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Yeah, and the, the, of course we’re going to learn so much more now. This is just the beginning of another chapter of our reporting on this.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: What did you hear from experts and officials after, um, and also during the film? Did they think Jolani was to be trusted?
MARTIN SMITH: The former ambassador to Turkey and also he was former ambassador to Iraq, um, Jim Jeffrey, um, thought that, and said that he thought Jolani was the least bad option. You know, I asked Jim Jefrrey at the end of the program, I had this exchange with him and I said, “So, did you ever go to the Secretary of State and say, ‘Hey, we ought to, you know, maybe consider lifting the terrorist designation?’” And he said, “No, I didn’t do that.” And I said, “Well, why didn’t you?” And he said, “Well, I wasn’t going to take that risk.”
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Hmm.
MARTIN SMITH: But there’s a lot of sentiment in Washington that says that Jolani, uh, is, is sincere in his effort to move away from mass terror attacks like ISIS committed.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Hmm.
MARTIN SMITH: On the other hand, there were people that were critical of the program naturally. I mean, people whose families were, um, uh, lost members in his prisons and, and others. And I, you know, we reported on both sides of that.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Well, I really do appreciate that you did, and in the documentary and even since, you know, you have clear eyes on this and we’ll have to wait to see what happens. Um, when you are watching this, what are you particularly looking for? What are you watching right now in the news?
MARTIN SMITH: Well, what I’m watching for are a couple of things. Watching to see what Jolani actually does, not what he says. Um, does he keep his word? Does he protect minorities, the Alawites, the Kurds, the Christians, um, others.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: You know, with the US backing Kurdish forces, striking ISIS, how do you see the role of the US evolving now after Assad’s ouster? I’m just curious.
MARTIN SMITH: Well, I think Trump’s instinct is to not get involved at all, but he’s inheriting a government that is involved. I think it’s very hard to predict, uh, what Trump is going to do. I think it’s easy for him to say, we’re not going to get involved at all, but I don’t know what in terms of action he’s going to do.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Right. Again, we’re just going to have to wait and see on that. So I also wanted to ask, you know, you’ve been a reporter for many, many, many decades actually in the Middle East, right? You’re watching—
MARTIN SMITH: Yeah. Don’t, don’t remind me.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Well, us too. You and me together. This has been a long time now. I’m just curious, Marty, you’re watching these people streaming back into Syria. What are you thinking and feeling as this is happening? Just as a person who’s been there knows a lot of people who are Syrian. Like, what are you thinking as you watch that?
MARTIN SMITH: Well, I’m hoping they can come back and reunify with loved ones. I’m hoping they can resume their previous lives. Um, I’m hoping that, um, Jolani stays true to his word. You know, this reminds me very much after the fall of Baghdad, um, as to how things were scrambled and all of a sudden you had Sunnis fighting Shias, uh, fighting, you know, other factions within the country and it became a, as we know, a bloody mess. And I just hope that’s not the case here.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Well, fair enough. And we’ll all keep watching. And we appreciate the fact that you’ve been so on top of the story and sharing your thoughts on Jolani. And of course, having the first, you know, Western journalist interview with him and the thoughts around that. Thanks for joining us on the Dispatch.
MARTIN SMITH: Thank you, Raney.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: You can stream The Jihadist on Frontline.org, Frontline’s YouTube channel, and the PBS app.
This podcast was produced by Emily Pisacreta.
Jim Sullivan is our audio engineer.
Maria Diokno is our Director of Audience Development.
Katherine Griwert is our Story Editor and Coordinating Producer.
Frank Koughan is our senior producer.
Lauren Ezell is our Senior Editor of Investigations.
Andrew Metz is our Managing Editor.
I’m Raney Aronson Rath, editor in chief and executive producer of FRONTLINE.
Music in the episode is by Stellwagon Symphonette.
The FRONTLINE Dispatch is produced at GBH and powered by PRX.
Thanks for listening.
