JOSH BAKER / NARRATING:

Before we start, I just want to flag that there are some descriptions of violence and upsetting moments involving children in this podcast.

The next couple of episodes — the epilogues — are all about answering questions. Questions you’ve asked but also a question I’ve been wrestling with for years.

And if you haven’t listened to the rest of the series, this will make much more sense if you start with episode 1. You’ll hear how I’m Not A Monster began after an old contact told me about an American family who were trapped with ISIS. He’d reached out after hearing I’d been injured in Iraq. This was back in November 2016.

BAKER / ARCHIVE:

Oh, is it recording? Yeah. So I am in a car heading back from Mosul to Erbil. And I am recording this on an iPhone because all of my equipment was destroyed in a suicide bomb blast. I am recording this largely because I don’t know how I feel.  We were staying in a house with a family, and the force of the blast was so strong that the house actually collapsed. I got extracted by the Iraqi army to an aid station …

BAKER / NARRATING:

I am in the back of a car, bleeding, with shrapnel in my head and back. My spine is fractured, but I don’t know it yet.

BAKER / ARCHIVE:

Um. But my driver is sort of now speeding me through traffic to hospital. I am in a lot of pain. I am going to stop rambling now. …

BAKER / NARRATING:

This is the day an ISIS truck bomb exploded outside the house of an Iraqi family I was staying with.

BAKER / ARCHIVE:

Ah …

DOCTOR / ARCHIVE:

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.

BAKER / ARCHIVE:

What’s happening?

BAKER / NARRATING:

I was lucky. I got out, got to hospital and got treated.

BAKER / ARCHIVE:

Ah …

DOCTOR / ARCHIVE: Just cleaning …

BAKER / NARRATING:

I got to tell my girlfriend and family I was ok.

BAKER / PHONE:

Honey, it’s me. Can you hear me? It’s Josh.

GIRLFRIEND / PHONE:

Hi. Yeah, I can hear you.

BAKER / PHONE:

I am OK, but I am in hospital. I was caught in a car bomb in Mosul in a house, and I had to dig myself out the house. I’m fine. I can’t stay on the phone for too long, but I am OK. I am safe.

GIRLFRIEND / PHONE:

How did you get out?

BAKER / PHONE:

Can I go into the details later?

GIRLFRIEND / PHONE:

Yeah.

BAKER / PHONE:

I know it’s quite a scary call, but I am fine. I promise.

BAKER / NARRATING:

There are things I  didn’t want to tell my girlfriend. Things I still leave out because I find them  really hard to deal with.  It’s not lost on me that there were people who didn’t get out or get rushed to hospital.

And I don’t know what happened to the family I was staying with.

BAKER / ZOOM:

Abdullah!

ABDULLAH / ZOOM:

Hi Josh, how are you?

BAKER / ZOOM:

Oh, my God! This hair is amazing.

ABDULLAH / ZOOM:

(laughs) Thanks.

BAKER / NARRATING:

This is Abdullah. He lives in France now, but back in 2016, we were working together in Iraq. He was with me when the suicide truck bomb exploded.

It’s been years since we’ve spoken.

ABDULLAH / ZOOM:

You know, I was in a relationship with a French girl, and we got married and we came to France.

BAKER / ZOOM:

Congratulations.

ABDULLAH / ZOOM:

Thank you, thank you.

BAKER / ZOOM:

Bury the lead, that the thing you tell me first: “Yeah man, I got married!”

ABDULLAH / ZOOM:

It’s great. I’m having the time of my life.

BAKER / NARRATING:

After a while, Abdullah and I start to talk about that day in Mosul.

ABDULLAH / ZOOM:

So, I don’t understand what happened. I don’t see the damage. It was dusty, and it’s only when I went inside the house, and I think I saw you at the door of the room?

BAKER / ZOOM:

Yeah.

ABDULLAH / ZOOM:

And that’s when I knew there was a lot of damage.

BAKER / ZOOM:

Yeah.

ABDULLAH / ZOOM:

It was really, really loud. Like, I remember comparing it to an airstrike. The room really looked like you put it in a blender, you know?

BAKER / ZOOM:

Yeah, I mean, it was destroyed, wasn’t it?

ABDULLAH / ZOOM:

The wood was mixed with the carpet.

BAKER / NARRATING:

In the back of my mind, I’ve been waiting for the right moment to ask Abdullah about a young boy, Ibrahim. He was about nine years old and was part of the family we were staying with.

BAKER / ZOOM:

Do you remember the night before, I was filming with him, he was by the sink, and he was brushing his hair, this beautiful little kid with this silly smile, and there was, like, the gunfire going on around us.

ABDULLAH / ZOOM:

Yeah. I wanted to talk about this with you as well, because it’s really crazy what happened. Something that really made me question what exactly happened, you know?

BAKER / NARRATING: For years, Abdullah and I have both been wondering what happened to Ibrahim and his family. But we’ve never talked about it until now.

ABDULLAH / ZOOM:

I went to go to the toilet, and there was, like, this little kid inside, so he left, and he was behind me. I went inside. I close the door. I lock it and, like, there is silence. Then there is the explosion. I literally felt the door hitting me.

BAKER / ZOOM:

So the door came off the wall and, like, hit you?

ABDULLAH / ZOOM:

Yeah.

BAKER / ZOOM:

Do you know if he got killed?

ABDULLAH / ZOOM:

I — I didn’t — I don’t want to …

BAKER / ZOOM:

Because for years, I thought this kid was killed.

ABDULLAH / ZOOM:

I always wondered after he left, like, I think I told myself, or I made myself believe, that he was fine. But I was always wondering where he was, you know?

BAKER / NARRATING:

The last time Abdullah saw him, Ibrahim was walking towards the front of the house, where the bomb would detonate. I think about Ibrahim and his family a lot. What happened to them? Did he survive?

I need answers. So I’m going back to Iraq.

I’m Josh Baker. From BBC Panorama and FRONTLINE PBS, this is I’m Not A Monster, episode 11, epilogue: “The Wounds and the Scars.”

BAKER / NARRATING:

The thing about going back to Mosul is I don’t remember exactly where Ibrahim and his family lived. The city was hit hard in the fight to defeat ISIS. Some areas have been rebuilt. Others haven’t.

It’s going to look very different from how I remember it. And I am looking for one house in a city of over a million people. So I am going to need some help.

BAKER:

Is that him?

ALAIUME:

Hello mate. How are you doing? It’s good to meet you.

BAKER / NARRATING:

This is Alaiume. He’s a digital investigator for the BBC in London. he specializes in something called open-source intelligence. Essentially, he finds fragments of information online: a social media post, or video or picture. Then he combines all the data to pinpoint a specific location.

BAKER:

So I’ve got the sort of video of the aftermath, so we can see the street like that. And then ISIS filmed the whole thing on a drone. So we have their viewpoint of the city street. I have narrowed it down to, let’s say, 500 houses.

ALAIUME:

OK.

BAKER / NARRATING:

By chance I stumbled on a video of the bombing. I had no idea the Islamic State group was watching it all unfold from a drone. They released the video as part of their propaganda, claiming the attack was a success. We are going to use it to try and find the house.

ALAIUME:

So, in that case, what we can do is, if you show me the video and the images you have got, then I will try to see if I can find any data points, or like any building that is unique, and then compare that to the satellite imagery and narrow it down further to one building.

BAKER / NARRATING:

He loads up two different satellite images: one from 2016, when I was there, and another more recent one.

BAKER:

So I think if you zoom out a little bit, the area I’ve narrowed it down to is, let’s say, between this junction here and this main road that comes into Mosul along here, past this industrial zone.

ALAIUME:

All right, perfect. And that was always there? Or is that a result of conflict?

BAKER:

As far as I am aware, that’s always been there. Sort of wasteland, grassland area.

ALAIUME:

That’s very good. Because from the sky, that’s a good anchor point.

BAKER / NARRATING:

Alaiume has never been to Iraq, let alone Mosul. So he’s trying hard to orientate himself. He uses a bit of wasteland as a reference point.

ALAIUME:

What I am going to do is grab a pen and paper, and we are going to draw the streets. Because that helps a lot.

BAKER:

Go for it.

ALAIUME:

So I’m just going to grab that, and I will be right back.

BAKER / NARRATING:

He needs to simplify what he is seeing, so with a pencil, he starts to draw his own map on a bit of paper. He focuses on specifics: where streets intersect or the position of objects that have stayed in place over time, like a water tower.

ALAIUME:

So, we go one street crossing there. And then there’s another street further north.

BAKER:

Yeah.

ALAIUME:

And then there’s another street further north.

BAKER:

So you are basically making your own map of the map.

ALAIUME:

Yeah, without the buildings, because the buildings can kind of blur, so if we just focus on the street and the open area, that might help. So that’s the mosque, no that’s too — the top of the map’s pointing south. I think I’ve got it.

BAKER:

You’re joking?

ALAIUME:

No, no I think it’s good. I just need to verify. But, so you see that square, that green area? Those small kind of buildings?

BAKER / NARRATING:

From almost 3,000 miles away, Alaiume’s pinpointed the location of the house.

BAKER:

Oh, wow. It is, isn’t it?

ALAIUME:

That’s the house that got blown up right?

BAKER:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

ALAIUME:

I am certain of the location. Absolutely.

BAKER / NARRATING:

A few weeks later, armed with Alaiume’s map,  I’m in Iraq.

BAKER:

Mate!

MOAYAD:

You look younger.

BAKER:

You liar.

MOAYAD:

Look at you!

BAKER / NARRATING:

This is Moayad. He’s from Mosul. He lived there for years under ISIS before escaping with his family. We ended up working together and became friends.

BAKER:

I’ve ordered you a breakfast box as well, so we can take some food with us.

MOAYAD:

Never say no.

BAKER:

How are you doing?

MOAYAD:

I’m OK. What about you?

BAKER:

I’m good. I’m nervous.

MOAYAD:

You should be nervous.

BAKER:

And there’s a …

MOAYAD:

The mixture of feelings.

BAKER:

Totally. How do you feel about going back to Mosul?

MOAYAD:

Ah, it’s OK.

BAKER:

It’s OK.

MOAYAD:

Yeah.

BAKER / NARRATING:

Before coming to Iraq, I’d called Moayad to ask if he’d be comfortable going back to Mosul. I wanted to check he’d be OK with it. It turns out he goes there a lot, now ISIS is gone. His brother still lives there.

MOAYAD:

I went there last week.

BAKER:

Did you? What’s it like?

MOAYAD:

It’s safe. But a lot needs to be done.

BAKER:

Really?

MOAYAD:

Yeah.

BAKER:

Does it ever feel strange to you, going back into the city, though?

MOAYAD:

I have bad memories — bad, bad memories, whenever I go there.

BAKER:

Really?

MOAYAD:

Yeah. I’ve seen a lot in my life.

BAKER:

You have to tell me if you feel shitty today, you know?

MOAYAD:

No, today I feel excited. Because going back there together.

BAKER:

But you mentioned having bad memories …

MOAYAD:

Yeah, because of ISIS, car bombs, mines, everything. Kidnapping, killing. You know, the mental damage is more than the physical damage.

BAKER:

You look healthy.

MOAYAD:

Thank God, yeah.

BAKER:

You’ve been in the gym.

MOAYAD:

Uh hum.

BAKER / NARRATING:

Moayad tells me working out has become his way to deal with the trauma of what he’s been through.

BAKER:

Your arms are humongous.

JOSH / NARRATING:

But it’s started taking a toll on him.

MOAYAD:

I need surgery right now.

BAKER:

Why?

MOAYAD:

I am rubbish with the medical terms. What do you call it when your stomach is coming out?

BAKER:

Hernia.

MOAYAD:

Hernia.

BAKER:

But brother, how did you give yourself a hernia? How?

MOAYAD:

So many weights.

BAKER / NARRATING:

“So many weights.” There’s a mental health crisis in Iraq right now. While the battle for Mosul ended years ago, what people witnessed there and in decades of conflict throughout the country has left its scars. And there is little support. So, in many ways, there’s a different battle facing the people here.

BAKER:

Shall we go?

MOAYAD:

Let’s do it.

BAKER:

I remember being in a car coming along this road, coming into the city, you know? During the fighting. And you could see sort of plumes of smoke in front of you, the thick black smoke.

MOAYAD:

I still remember that view.

BAKER:

You thought like you were driving into the apocalypse.

MOAYAD:

Someone is driving towards death.

BAKER:

I’ve come into Mosul since being blown up and, you know, I never really used to feel anything, but there’s something about today, where I can just feel more tense, like a tension in my tummy, going back to the city.

MOAYAD:

When we get to the house, I am sure that the tension will be rising.

BAKER:

As we enter the city, shops are open, the streets are clean, there are workers rebuilding. I can see a Ferris wheel in the distance.

MOAYAD:

Not like before.

BAKER:

I feel like the city is rebuilding and healing, but I can’t imagine what you are and what the population is left to remember, you know? It’s like the mental trauma is still here, right?

MOAYAD:

Exactly. It’s still here.

BAKER / NARRATING:

Moayad points out the window, in the direction of a mosque.

MOAYAD:

Like, for instance, one day near this mosque, in front of my eyes, they took a person out of the trunk of a car and put a gun on his head and fired two rounds. In front of my eyes.

BAKER:

Just here.

MOAYAD:

Just here, in front of that mosque. Another memory, near here. It was like so many people celebrating wedding ceremonies. All of a sudden, a car bomb exploded. And the, the image I can never forget: The man died and his groom with the white dress sitting on the sidewalk crying. So many people died. Wherever you go there is a mark.

BAKER / NARRATING:

As we drive through Mosul, Moayad is trying to line up his GPS tracker with the location Alaiume gave me. He’s trying to get us to the house where Ibrahim and his family lived.

MOAYAD:

Does this bring any memories, this street?

BAKER:

It’s hard to remember.

MOAYAD:

I think we are getting there.

BAKER:

Getting close?

MOAYAD:

Maybe on our left …

BAKER:

Maybe around here?

MOAYAD:

Because look. We were here just now.

BAKER:

Is this it? No. Maybe.

MOAYAD:

I can ask the shop owner if there was an explosion during the liberation around here.

BAKER:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, you ask the shop owner.

MOAYAD:

Exactly.

MOAYAD:

(Speaking to shop owner)

BAKER / NARRATING:

Moayad gets out to talk to a guy in a corner store. It’s hard to see what’s going on. Until they walk over.

MOAYAD:

Hey, this is the house.

BAKER:

This is the house?

MOAYAD:

Yeah, he said: “Here where the car blew. Blows up.”

BAKER / NARRATING:

The house we are looking for is right behind me.

MOAYAD:

He remembers you.

BAKER:

No way.

MOAYAD:

You were the cameraman. He remembers you very well.

BAKER / NARRATING:

I nervously show him a photo of Ibrahim. Maybe he knows if the boy is still alive.

BAKER:

Do you know this boy?

MOAYAD:

(Translating) Yeah. Nobody died in that explosion.

BAKER:

The kid’s alive.

MOAYAD:

The whole family is alive.

BAKER:

Oh, my God. Can I knock on the door?

MOAYAD:

He will call them.

BAKER:

So, the kid’s alive?

MOAYAD:

Yeah, the whole family is alive.

JOSH:

(Exhales audibly)

BAKER / NARRATING:

We walk over to the house. A woman answers the door. It’s Ibrahim’s mother.

INNES:

My name is Innes.

BAKER:

Hello. My name is Josh.

INNES:

Welcome.

BAKER:

I was staying in your house.

INNES:

Yes, I remember that.

BAKER:

For so many years, I have been wondering: Are you OK? Are you safe? Oh, you are crying. You’ll make me cry.

INNES:

Don’t cry. I am happy to see you too. I don’t think you come back to here after what happened. I think you run and don’t come back. (Laughs) I think you said, “I’m never come back to Iraq.”

BAKER:

I have been wanting to come back for so many years. To see if you are OK, you and your family.

INNES:

We are happy you come back to us and remember us. I think you don’t want to think about us, never, what happened.

BAKER:

I think about you and your family almost every day.

INNES:

Thank for God, nothing happened to me or to my family.

BAKER / NARRATING:

Innes invites me into the family home.

BAKER:

I will take my shoes off.

INNES:

No, no, no, no, no.

BAKER:

No, it’s your home. I should, please.

MOAYAD:

Tell me your feelings.

BAKER:

I don’t know yet. I just, I can feel my heart rate is quicker. I feel a bit just — confused.

MOAYAD:

It’s obvious on your face.

BAKER:

Really. (Laughs) What does my face look like?

MOAYAD:

Shocked, happy.

BAKER / NARRATING:

I am trying to take everything in. Moayad and I sit down on a comfy couch. Innes goes to the kitchen to make tea and tells us we should wait for Ibrahim. He’s on his way home.

BAKER:

This whole wall was destroyed, and when I went to hospital, the only shrapnel they couldn’t remove from my body is the brick from this house. It’s stuck in my head and back.

BAKER / NARRATING:

As I stare at the wall that had been obliterated in the blast, Ibrahim’s younger brother comes over and sits next to me. He looks about 7 years old. He starts to flick through some photos that I’d brought to help identify the house. He picks up one of me, covered in dust. It’s taken just after I got out of the rubble. He stares at it then turns to Moayad. I’m worried it’s upset him.

BOY:

(Speaking)

BAKER:

What’s he saying?

MOAYAD:

You were fat!

BAKER:

(Laughs) So the little kid is telling me I looked fat in a picture of me covered in rubble and dust?

MOAYAD:

Is that because of the Iraqi food? The kebab.

BAKER:

Yeah, too much Kebab.

BAKER / NARRATING:

I’m handed cup after cup of deliciously sugary tea. Then more and more people arrive: cousins, an uncle, nieces, a nephew, neighbors.

MOAYAD:

He arrived.

BAKER:

No way.

BAKER / NARRATING:

And finally, Ibrahim.

MOAYAD:

(Translating)

BAKER:

How are you? It’s so nice to see you. Thank you for letting me into your home.

(People speaking in the background)

MOAYAD:

It’s your house.

BAKER:

For a long time, I did not know if he was alive or not. So I am very happy to see you, Ibrahim.

BAKER / NARRATING:

Ibrahim is no longer the little boy I remember. He’s tall and skinny, with slicked-back hair. He’s a shy 14-year-old who’s a little wary of my microphone. But we smile at each other. Moayad translates for me.

BAKER:

It makes me so happy to be here and see that you are safe.

MOAYAD:

(Translates) He said, “Thank God we’re OK. …”

BAKER:

I should explain that, as a journalist we get to come and meet people and step into their lives, but then we leave. We often don’t know what happens to you.

MOAYAD:

(Translates) So after the explosion, they left. They went to the refugee camp for two months. Then they came back, cleared the rubble and started reconstructing the house. They still do some reconstruction.

BAKER / NARRATING:

The more we talk, the more the family start to reveal what they went through that day. Innes tells me how lucky they are to be alive and that it took years to rebuild their house. I mention the documentary I was filming at the time. And they ask to see it. I play a clip from my phone.

DOCUMENTARY:

They were a mile back from the frontline, and they feel safe. But they are wrong. The war is about to come to them.

BAKER:

Would I be able to see the room? Is that OK? Wow, this is the room. This is crazy. I can’t believe I am back here.

BAKER / NARRATING:

I am back in the room I ran into, as the truck was coming down the street.

(Bomb explosions)

BAKER:

I was buried under here. And then I remember the light coming through.

BAKER / NARRATING:

My mind is being assaulted by memories, the buried soldiers, the smells. I remember clambering out of the house as it started to burn. It makes me realize how lucky I am to be alive. How on Earth did the family get out? Innes says that they’d all just stepped into a neighbor’s house. All except for Ibrahim.

BAKER:

My colleague remembers that he had just gone to the bathroom, and then seeing him walk away, and then we were like, we don’t know what happened.

BAKER / NARRATING:

Innes tells me it all came down to what her son wanted for breakfast. After walking away from the bathroom, Ibrahim headed to the stairs. The family keep some of their food beneath the concrete steps. Ibrahim wanted an egg, so he crouched down and started searching for one.

At that exact moment, the bomb detonated. A huge steel plate that had been welded to the side of the truck ripped through the house, slicing it in half and forcing its collapse.

The metal plate slammed to a stop against the stairs, just above Ibrahim’s head. The stairs saved his life.

I step outside to catch my breath.

BAKER:

Wow. I can’t believe they are not only alive, but they are, like, the kids are OK. I don’t want to make this about me, because everyone is traumatized, but it’s such — what a release. OK, enough.

BAKER / NARRATING:

I say goodbye to the family. We promise to keep in touch. As we drive through the city he once called home, I ask Moayad how he feels.

MOAYAD:

So, we will always have these bad memories, but at the same time, feeling optimistic about the future.

BAKER:

Life goes on.

MOAYAD:

Life goes on.

BAKER:

I think part of dealing with trauma is learning how to feel again, because I think for a long time you block out all those emotions, right?

MOAYAD:

I am still trying sometimes.

BAKER:

The scars of the battle are still here.

MOAYAD:

Exactly, yeah. The wounds and the scars.

BAKER / NARRATING:

Those wounds and scars need to be treated. But that’s a big ask in a country where millions of people are still trying to find a way to rebuild their lives.

There are two people I need to see while I’m here. I met them when I was looking for Sam and Matthew.

BOY:

One banana, two banana, three banana, four, four banana … . (Whispers inaudibly) You can listen?

BAKER:

Where did you learn this song?

BOY:

From this family American.

BAKER:

From the American family?

BOY:

Yeah. They learned me this song.

BAKER / CREDITS:

You’ve been listening to I’m Not A Monster. It’s a collaboration between BBC Panorama and FRONTLINE (PBS) for BBC Sounds. The series is written by me, Josh Baker, and Joe Kent. We produced it together with Max Green. Lucie Sullivan is our production assistant. The composer is Sam Slater. The editor is Emma Rippon. And it was mixed by Tom Brignell. There’s a huge team behind the project. At BBC Panorama, Karen Wightman is the editor. At FRONTLINE (PBS), Raney Aronson is the executive producer. The commissioning executive for BBC Sounds is Dylan Haskins. We’ve made a film, as well as a podcast, and if you’re in the U.K., you can watch Return From ISIS on BBC iPlayer. In the U.S., you can watch at frontline.org. And you can subscribe to I’m Not A Monster on the free BBC Sounds app.